endowed by their Creator ......

[JBeukema]

Divine right is a man made figment to justify the Kings that took power over man.

tell that to Paul, who says clearly that all authority comes from god. That is why slaves are to be good slaves and never pbject. If you read the damned bible, you'd know that

Those Kings worked directly or indirectly for Satan

Riiiiiiiight... like all the jewish kings who LITERALLY claimed to be anointed by god through a prophet

Eots little Conspiracy is true in one sense, Satan runs everything one way or another.

Take your meds

 

[manu1959]

who or what is the "creator".........if not a reference to a "god" of some type.....then what.....

how can one argue for life liberty and the persuit of happiness but deny the "creator" that gave you what you are arguing for.....

The question I have, whether you believe America is a "Christian nation" or not, is in this phrase:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Regardless of what you think is referenced by "the Creator", given this is the document that our nation was founded upon, espousing a principle or our country so clear that it is deemed "self-evident"

all men are created equal​

If that is what we are about, if that is what we believe how the Creator created us, how can we possible justify withholding basic human rights from "men" simply with the argument that they are not Americans or citizens?

How can we hold that all men are created equal by the Creator, but then treat men so unequally as to deprive them of fundamental rights we hold dear as set forth in our Constitution?

setting aside the definition of men.....it simply says they are created equal.....it does not say they will be treated equally under the law regardless of citizenship or that they are guranteed any fundemental rights regardless of citizenship.....

but before i argue that point....tell my what fundemental rights are guaranteed under the constituion....

 

[manu1959]

"Except Kings are NOT appointed nor anointed by God. There is only one King that will ever happen to and that is Jesus Christ when he rules Earth."

2 questions: How do you know that Jesus hasn't already come and we all just dismissed him as a nutjob who thought he was jesus and locked him away in a funny farm?

What's he waiting for?

for you to accept him as your saviour.......maybe he has decided that none of us are worth saving.....

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Divine right is a man made figment to justify the Kings that took power over man.

tell that to Paul, who says clearly that all authority comes from god. That is why slaves are to be good slaves and never pbject. If you read the damned bible, you'd know that

Those Kings worked directly or indirectly for Satan

Riiiiiiiight... like all the jewish kings who LITERALLY claimed to be anointed by god through a prophet

Eots little Conspiracy is true in one sense, Satan runs everything one way or another.

Take your meds

John did not mean what you state he meant. We are all instructed to obey the laws of the Countries and situations in man's world we find ourselves in. We are admonished to give to Caesar what is his and to give to God what is his.

Thee have been no Prophets according to most Christian religions since Jesus. So your entire argument fails miserably. Only those Kings blessed by Prophets of God would be accepted by God. NONE of the Western Worlds Kings were blessed by Prophets since there were NONE.

 

[Iriemon]

who or what is the "creator".........if not a reference to a "god" of some type.....then what.....

how can one argue for life liberty and the persuit of happiness but deny the "creator" that gave you what you are arguing for.....

The question I have, whether you believe America is a "Christian nation" or not, is in this phrase:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Regardless of what you think is referenced by "the Creator", given this is the document that our nation was founded upon, espousing a principle or our country so clear that it is deemed "self-evident"

all men are created equal​

If that is what we are about, if that is what we believe how the Creator created us, how can we possible justify withholding basic human rights from "men" simply with the argument that they are not Americans or citizens?

How can we hold that all men are created equal by the Creator, but then treat men so unequally as to deprive them of fundamental rights we hold dear as set forth in our Constitution?

setting aside the definition of men.....it simply says they are created equal.....it does not say they will be treated equally under the law regardless of citizenship or that they are guranteed any fundemental rights regardless of citizenship.....

but before i argue that point....tell my what fundemental rights are guaranteed under the constituion....

If it doesn't mean created equal before the law, what the hell does it mean? We are not all literal created equal in terms of appearance, intellegence or other attributes.

Read the Constitution as to rights. Start with the Bill of Rights. What those rights are are irrlevant to my point, which is what we believe in when we say all men are created equal by their creator.

 

[TofuDog]

"That was the deal God Struck with Satan"

If god created everything, then he must have created satan, or else satan was created at the same time as god by someone else.

So then, why did god create satan?

And why did god created homos?

 

[mattskramer]

who or what is the "creator".........if not a reference to a "god" of some type.....then what.....

how can one argue for life liberty and the persuit of happiness but deny the "creator" that gave you what you are arguing for.....

The whole question is pointless. It is, after all, simply a phrase in a self-service piece of paper written by colonists wanting to convince people of reasons why they should break away from English rule.

 

[JBeukema]

"That was the deal God Struck with Satan"

If god created everything, then he must have created satan, or else satan was created at the same time as god by someone else

So then, why did god create satan?

And why did god created homos?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7

 

[TofuDog]

God created evil and the devil? wtf? But then again, any god capable of creating daisy cutters...

 

[code1211]

Ya references everywhere in our creation documents of this country but the left would have us believe we are not a Christian nation.

well there are lots of different religions and gods......do believe they were only refering to the christian god.....to the exclusion of all others....

It certainly seems as if they were. Do you know of any statements from the Founders that includes the Gods of other religions into their refereances to THE Almighty?

 

[JBeukema]

Ya references everywhere in our creation documents of this country but the left would have us believe we are not a Christian nation.

well there are lots of different religions and gods......do believe they were only refering to the christian god.....to the exclusion of all others....

It certainly seems as if they were. Do you know of any statements from the Founders that includes the Gods of other religions into their refereances to THE Almighty?

I know of many that talk about xtianity being bullshit and the source of evil or about the state and church being lethal to eachother. The didn't know about other religions, so they only spoke on those that were at issue at the time- do you ever bother to discuss policy regarding the religion of some obscure tribe in the Amazon?

 

[code1211]

well there are lots of different religions and gods......do believe they were only refering to the christian god.....to the exclusion of all others....

It certainly seems as if they were. Do you know of any statements from the Founders that includes the Gods of other religions into their refereances to THE Almighty?

I know of many that talk about xtianity being bullshit and the source of evil or about the state and church being lethal to eachother. The didn't know about other religions, so they only spoke on those that were at issue at the time- do you ever bother to discuss policy regarding the religion of some obscure tribe in the Amazon?

That is the point at question, though, isn't it? The religious debate at the time for our society was between Catholocism and Protestants. Jews were within the consideration as were Moslems but the latter only as an interesting reason for the Crusades. Other religions were considered pagen and therefore superstition and therefore beneath contempt.

"Their Creator" might be a phrase that can be tortured into saying that it includes other gods, but my guess is that our Founders would only put a capital letter G at the start of the word that denoted the Christian/Jewish/Moslem God of Abraham.

 

[JBeukema]

They avoided that word because they knew christians can't be trusted- they remembered what happened in England

they could not trust one another, so they agreed this State should avoid recognizing any religion- it was kept purposefully open

 

[code1211]

They avoided that word because they knew christians can't be trusted- they remembered what happened in England

they could not trust one another, so they agreed this State should avoid recognizing any religion- it was kept purposefully open

Again, the words written by our Founders can be tortured until they will say anything, but the simple and obvious fact of the matter is that these guys were, in the majority, a pretty Christian group. Jefferson and Adams both were constantly referring to the Christain God.

Franklin, notable as the foremost scientist of the time, was a tad more reserved in this and often made jokes about the Creator and the supposed importance of our little world to a Creator that made the rest of creation, also. Perspective is not something for which a zealot has much use.

Lincoln made use of Christianity in many speeches as did FDR. As long as the USA was a parochial nation, this stance was an easy one to maintain. Following WW2, we seem to have become a little more sophisticated and a little less naive.

As a nation under law, I guess I would prefer a little more attention to the laws and a little less to the Christian or "empathetic" feelings of a judge. Unless, of course, these feelings benefited my side of the case. In that situation the judge should empathize his ass off.

 

[Yukon]

The American founding fathers were taritors to Britain. That being said I am of the opinion that they did some good things however the constant referal to them in this day and age is quite silly. They lived over 200 years ago, in a different world with different values. We cannot go back to that time in history. Today we must learn to share with the Chinese and the Muslims or we will be obliterated by them . We must change and change now or we will perish.

 

[KittenKoder]

The American founding fathers were taritors to Britain. That being said I am of the opinion that they did some good things however the constant referal to them in this day and age is quite silly. They lived over 200 years ago, in a different world with different values. We cannot go back to that time in history. Today we must learn to share with the Chinese and the Muslims or we will be obliterated by them . We must change and change now or we will perish.

Insulting the US on a US message board is probably a bad idea when you aren't a US citizen ... *sees Yukon's rep plummet in the near future*

 

[KittenKoder]

The only truly unpatriotic thing to say is that the US is a traitor, especially against something as tyrannical as the church which use to control England.

 

[code1211]

The American founding fathers were taritors to Britain. That being said I am of the opinion that they did some good things however the constant referal to them in this day and age is quite silly. They lived over 200 years ago, in a different world with different values. We cannot go back to that time in history. Today we must learn to share with the Chinese and the Muslims or we will be obliterated by them . We must change and change now or we will perish.

Bear with me for a second.

Shakespeare said in one of his sonnets in part:

"...Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds
Or bends with the remover to be removed.

...It is an ever fixed mark...
A guide to every wandering bark...

Whose height is known
But whose measure may never be taken..."

Shakespeare was talking about love, but any great goal could fit into that space. For lack of a better word, let's use equality. The Founders were people pretty much like you or I, but they had aspirations, iron wills and a couple had a real way with words.

The world was different then than now, but the state of the human condition was not much different in the way that we need hopes, heroes and unmoving principles to guide our actions. The world before us as defined by the Chinese and the Moslems is not a world of giants but one of minions to the powerful.

I prefer the world aspired to by our Founders to the one defined by the powers you cite. With luck, the Chinese and the Moslems will eventually recognize the value of the individual and the essential need for liberty within a society.

There might come a day, though, when we'll be faced with a day like St. Crispin's Day with the Chinese or the Moslems playing the role of the French. On that day, it would be good to have both the ideals of the founders and the words of Shakespeare to steel our actions.

If we change now to a form pleasing to the Chinese and the Moslems, we have already perished.

 

[JBeukema]

Again, the words written by our Founders can be tortured until they will say anything, but the simple and obvious fact of the matter is that these guys were, in the majority, a pretty Christian group./

Again, the words written by our Founders can be tortured until they will say anything, but the simple and obvious fact of the matter is that these guys founded and wanted a secular government

Jefferson and Adams both were constantly referring to the Christain God.

Yes, they were- every time they said it was evil superstitious bullshit