End of life is near for a truly fine man

[tinydancer]

Guys can we just really leave this thread to applaud a man that really was just a good soul and a dedicated person.

We can pull ECW in another.

But why don't we just let this thread stand when men really beleived what they were doing was the "right" thing.

Come on all. We can battle some where else. He and his wife 63 years. 63 year marriage. Never a scandal.

Right or wrong in our minds doesn't count.

He thought what he was doing was the right thing. There are few and far between who are made this way today.

 

[Bfgrn]

Winners and Losers
by Gary Hart

The political media has long treated politics as a sport and a contact sport at that. All the verbs and most of the adjectives are taken from the sports pages. And, of course, it is all about winning and losing. From this perspective, George McGovern goes down as an epic loser: 49 States went against him and for Richard Nixon in 1972.

But what if we judged political figures and candidates by more intelligent standards? The "winner" Richard Nixon, abdicated the presidency in disgrace. And the "loser" George McGovern continued on to become one of his generation's greatest humanitarians.

Throughout his public and private life, Senator McGovern was at the forefront of the struggle against hunger both in the United States and throughout the world. Though a decorated military hero, he led the opposition to the war in Vietnam. He has still to be recognized for his leadership in democratizing the Democratic Party and opening up its doors to women, minorities, and young people, thus avoiding a repeat of the chaos at the Chicago Democratic convention in 1968 and bringing his party into the cultural mainstream emerging from the social revolutions of the 1960s and 70s.

Most politicians, especially those who lose and lose badly, disappear from public view. George McGovern refused to do so. That took some courage. His deep convictions would not permit him to disappear. If you believe in ideals strongly enough, you are not at liberty to abandon them simply because you did not obtain the office you sought, including the presidency. Continuing the fight is the definition of conviction, and of courage.

Losers are ridiculed for losing. They are lampooned with jokes and cartoons. It takes a very strong man or woman to suffer through that. But George McGovern did. And he continued throughout his life to pursue his sense of justice, equality, and fairness--the very purpose of the Party he once led. All the while, he and his family suffered Kennedyesque personal tragedies.

Nor is the insensitive political scale of winning and losing capable of weighing another factor of true leadership -- the caliber and quality of people the supposed loser attracts into public service. In George McGovern's case that includes Bill and Hillary Clinton, Senators and Representatives, State legislators, foreign service officers, federal judges, and many, many humanitarians.

Senator McGovern, for years after 1972, was fond of saying: "We may have lost, but none of us went to jail." Many of those closest to the "winner" went to jail or simply became political hacks.

If George McGovern represents the political losers of the world, then I for one am proud to stand with him.

 

[auditor0007]

Sounds like a good dude. Even if his answer to hunger was theft.

He doesn't fit that category. He really was a good man.

My answer to hunger somewhere on the planet is this.

Ship me in. Drop me into any said country. Give me seeds (Johnny's if I could have my druthers best germination rates) and give me water.

Why do we still have "world hunger"? Because it has become a business. A multi million dollar business.

I'm just a gardener not a rocket scientist but it is a no brainer that if you give seeds and water you can produce food.

But you have too many "help the poor people and feed them" organizations around making quizzillions off this scam of feed the poor.

But quickly back to McGovern, he didn't fit that bill. Good man.

A great many places where there is this type of famine, you have governments or rebels against the government who would destroy anything you try to build, including simple things like corn fields.

 

[Chris]

God speed, Mr. McGovern.

 

[JoeB131]

Give me seeds...and give me water.

And who is going to pay for those seeds as well as the tools and labor required to dig the wells? Voluntary contributions or forcible theft from people that earned the means to buy their own seeds?

It makes a difference.

Only to you.

You seem to think the wealthy earned every penny they have, that they didn't exploit poor people at all.

And then they rode off on their magic unicorns.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

And you're dumb enough to believe that only the wealthy pay to subsidize agro-business to make such a program possible. Which is of course, ignorant.

But you do make some good Marxist observations on exploitation.

 

[bitterlyclingin]

WWII veteran who considered his wartime duties war crimes. Speaking German and mandatory studies of Mein Kampf were better choices for Georgie? George's story is notable for only one thing, he was the first official CPUSA candidate nominated by the newly America hating Democratic Party after it was seized by Communist and other anti American elements funded, directed, supplied and organized by the the Soviet Union. The first anti American Democrat, James Earl Carter, to win the Presidency as the new Democratic Party's standard bearer stunned most Americans when, in one of his first speeches, he admonished Americans to get over their 'Inordinate fear of Communism". That was the first hint of the new America looming on edge of the horizon that instead of "Yearning to breath free" would yearn instead solely for a benevolent master.

 

[Bfgrn]

WWII veteran who considered his wartime duties war crimes. Speaking German and mandatory studies of Mein Kampf were better choices for Georgie? George's story is notable for only one thing, he was the first official CPUSA candidate nominated by the newly America hating Democratic Party after it was seized by Communist and other anti American elements funded, directed, supplied and organized by the the Soviet Union. The first anti American Democrat, James Earl Carter, to win the Presidency as the new Democratic Party's standard bearer stunned most Americans when, in one of his first speeches, he admonished Americans to get over their 'Inordinate fear of Communism". That was the first hint of the new America looming on edge of the horizon that instead of "Yearning to breath free" would yearn instead solely for a benevolent master.

Hating the killing of young American soldiers in a senseless and useless war is America hating? Please explain??

September 1, 1970 United States Senate Chamber:

"Every Senator in this chamber is partly responsible for sending 50,000 young Americans to an early grave. This chamber reeks of blood. Every Senator here is partly responsible for that human wreckage at Walter Reed and Bethesda Naval and all across our land – young men without legs, or arms, or genitals, or faces or hopes. There are not very many of these blasted and broken boys who think this war is a glorious adventure. Do not talk to them about bugging out, or national honor or courage. It does not take any courage at all for a congressman, or a senator, or a president to wrap himself in the flag and say we are staying in Vietnam, because it is not our blood that is being shed. But we are responsible for those young men and their lives and their hopes. And if we do not end this damnable war those young men will some day curse us for our pitiful willingness to let the Executive carry the burden that the Constitution places on us.

So before we vote, let us ponder the admonition of Edmund Burke, the great parliamentarian of an earlier day: "A contentious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood."

The honorable Senator George S. McGovern from South Dakota

 

[eflatminor]

Give me seeds...and give me water.

And who is going to pay for those seeds as well as the tools and labor required to dig the wells? Voluntary contributions or forcible theft from people that earned the means to buy their own seeds?

It makes a difference.

Only to you.

You seem to think the wealthy earned every penny they have, that they didn't exploit poor people at all.

And then they rode off on their magic unicorns.

Only to me my ass. It matters to all of us forced to fund your so-called great society.

Now, tell us, which wealthy man was it that forced a poor person to work for them? I'm pretty sure only government can forcibly exploit a citizen but if you have a case of forced labor then by all means, share it.

 

[JoeB131]

And who is going to pay for those seeds as well as the tools and labor required to dig the wells? Voluntary contributions or forcible theft from people that earned the means to buy their own seeds?

It makes a difference.

Only to you.

You seem to think the wealthy earned every penny they have, that they didn't exploit poor people at all.

And then they rode off on their magic unicorns.

Only to me my ass. It matters to all of us forced to fund your so-called great society.

Now, tell us, which wealthy man was it that forced a poor person to work for them? I'm pretty sure only government can forcibly exploit a citizen but if you have a case of forced labor then by all means, share it.

Oh, the poor rich people, they just don't have a thing and no one appreciates them at all.

Tired of hearing it. We need to tax those fuckers out of existance... and then force them to eat their Dressage Horses... without any Grey Poupon.

Fact is, this country didn't become great until the labor movement forced the wealthy to pay the working man a fair share.

 

[Bfgrn]

Sunday, October 21, 2012

Senator George Stanley McGovern died at 5:15 a.m. Sunday at a hospice in Sioux Falls, surrounded by family and lifelong friends.

Rest in peace.

 

[Freewill]

How is the war on hunger going?

 

[tinydancer]

Only to you.

You seem to think the wealthy earned every penny they have, that they didn't exploit poor people at all.

And then they rode off on their magic unicorns.

Only to me my ass. It matters to all of us forced to fund your so-called great society.

Now, tell us, which wealthy man was it that forced a poor person to work for them? I'm pretty sure only government can forcibly exploit a citizen but if you have a case of forced labor then by all means, share it.

Oh, the poor rich people, they just don't have a thing and no one appreciates them at all.

Tired of hearing it. We need to tax those fuckers out of existance... and then force them to eat their Dressage Horses... without any Grey Poupon.

Fact is, this country didn't become great until the labor movement forced the wealthy to pay the working man a fair share.

America was great from the first moment she was formed. Truly from sea to sea the vast wealth of your nation are filled with riches beyond.

Like Canada. We are wealthy beyond our wildest dreams compared to many countries. We have natural resources that other countries would die for.

And only a communist would claim that the labor movement made America great. As if the greatness of America didn't exist until there was Jimmy Hoffa.

I guess you skipped a few hundred years.

 

[tinydancer]

Sunday, October 21, 2012

Senator George Stanley McGovern died at 5:15 a.m. Sunday at a hospice in Sioux Falls, surrounded by family and lifelong friends.

Rest in peace.

And he was a good man. I wish that posters could distinguish between dreams from a by gone era and the nasty political climate of today.

Oh cripes I'm dating myself.

Back then all of us wanted the world to succeed. We wandered from door to door with our little UNICEF boxes for pennies at Halloween so we could help starving children world wide.

We dreamed.

We thought we could make a difference just by caring. McGovern was from that era.

I'm about as hard right as you can get these days because I realize others in the interim have perverted those dreams.

But I hope everyone can just remember this man as a soul dedicated to trying to make the world better.

Just one hell of a good man who tried to make a difference when it counted back then.

RIP sir.

 

[Steelplate]

Only to me my ass. It matters to all of us forced to fund your so-called great society.

Now, tell us, which wealthy man was it that forced a poor person to work for them? I'm pretty sure only government can forcibly exploit a citizen but if you have a case of forced labor then by all means, share it.

Oh, the poor rich people, they just don't have a thing and no one appreciates them at all.

Tired of hearing it. We need to tax those fuckers out of existance... and then force them to eat their Dressage Horses... without any Grey Poupon.

Fact is, this country didn't become great until the labor movement forced the wealthy to pay the working man a fair share.

America was great from the first moment she was formed. Truly from sea to sea the vast wealth of your nation are filled with riches beyond.

Like Canada. We are wealthy beyond our wildest dreams compared to many countries. We have natural resources that other countries would die for.

And only a communist would claim that the labor movement made America great. As if the greatness of America didn't exist until there was Jimmy Hoffa.

I guess you skipped a few hundred years.

The labor movement didn't start with Jimmy Hoffa. The labor movement started with brave souls like the Molly Maguires, who....after years of slaving away in coal mines, paid in company script to be used only in company stores....at a huge markup...keeping those workers in perpetual debt...to the company....rebelled against the greed of the company. Yes, they were a violent lot.....but they didn't start out that way....one of the early attempts at unionization were met with violence towards those who joined by the mine owners. The Mollies were formed from a group of Irish-Catholic miners, who decided to meet that violence with vigilante justice.

The thing about the Mollies is that you have to consider the time....were talking late...to...post Civil War America. The idea of organized labor was such an affront to the industrialists and those industrialists had so much economic and political power, that they could call up the entire resources of the state to squash any attempts of labor to organize....militia, National Guard...even regular Army. People often talk about unions being "thugs", but the truth of the matter is that in the early days, the thuggery was heavily in favor of the powerful....not the unions.

Yes....shit got out of hand in the 70's....The OPEC oil embargo kicked a lot of businesses' asses. We as a country were woefully unprepared for that particular hardship....and the unions wouldn't budge....they were too powerful, too proud to make reasonable concessions. So the business owners fought back....politically. In 1980, they helped Reagan get elected....who effectively squashed private sector unions.

Flash forward 30+ years and the modern industrialists(Corporatists) are thriving and 40-50% of the workforce needs some sort of government assistance to eke out a living. We slid too far in the other direction.

Now...I saw eflatminor say about taking a job "voluntarily", that there is no "forced labor" in America...yet the choices for many seem to be either take that shitty job, or go on welfare. So yes, at the rudimentary level....it is voluntary. But if you dig a little deeper than the surface? It's "take it or be a welfare bum". Not much of a choice really, and our society should be applauded for the fact that most people choose choice A rather than B. Yes, many of them are subsidized in the form of food stamps, Medicaid, and or housing assistance, but they are working and doing the best they can.

 

[tinydancer]

Oh, the poor rich people, they just don't have a thing and no one appreciates them at all.

Tired of hearing it. We need to tax those fuckers out of existance... and then force them to eat their Dressage Horses... without any Grey Poupon.

Fact is, this country didn't become great until the labor movement forced the wealthy to pay the working man a fair share.

America was great from the first moment she was formed. Truly from sea to sea the vast wealth of your nation are filled with riches beyond.

Like Canada. We are wealthy beyond our wildest dreams compared to many countries. We have natural resources that other countries would die for.

And only a communist would claim that the labor movement made America great. As if the greatness of America didn't exist until there was Jimmy Hoffa.

I guess you skipped a few hundred years.

The labor movement didn't start with Jimmy Hoffa. The labor movement started with brave souls like the Molly Maguires, who....after years of slaving away in coal mines, paid in company script to be used only in company stores....at a huge markup...keeping those workers in perpetual debt...to the company....rebelled against the greed of the company. Yes, they were a violent lot.....but they didn't start out that way....one of the early attempts at unionization were met with violence towards those who joined by the mine owners. The Mollies were formed from a group of Irish-Catholic miners, who decided to meet that violence with vigilante justice.

The thing about the Mollies is that you have to consider the time....were talking late...to...post Civil War America. The idea of organized labor was such an affront to the industrialists and those industrialists had so much economic and political power, that they could call up the entire resources of the state to squash any attempts of labor to organize....militia, National Guard...even regular Army. People often talk about unions being "thugs", but the truth of the matter is that in the early days, the thuggery was heavily in favor of the powerful....not the unions.

Yes....shit got out of hand in the 70's....The OPEC oil embargo kicked a lot of businesses' asses. We as a country were woefully unprepared for that particular hardship....and the unions wouldn't budge....they were too powerful, too proud to make reasonable concessions. So the business owners fought back....politically. In 1980, they helped Reagan get elected....who effectively squashed private sector unions.

Flash forward 30+ years and the modern industrialists(Corporatists) are thriving and 40-50% of the workforce needs some sort of government assistance to eke out a living. We slid too far in the other direction.

Now...I saw eflatminor say about taking a job "voluntarily", that there is no "forced labor" in America...yet the choices for many seem to be either take that shitty job, or go on welfare. So yes, at the rudimentary level....it is voluntary. But if you dig a little deeper than the surface? It's "take it or be a welfare bum". Not much of a choice really, and our society should be applauded for the fact that most people choose choice A rather than B. Yes, many of them are subsidized in the form of food stamps, Medicaid, and or housing assistance, but they are working and doing the best they can.

I was being a smart ass about Hoffa. Just having fun.



I know the labor movement very well. I used to be very very very left wing.

 

[Steelplate]

America was great from the first moment she was formed. Truly from sea to sea the vast wealth of your nation are filled with riches beyond.

Like Canada. We are wealthy beyond our wildest dreams compared to many countries. We have natural resources that other countries would die for.

And only a communist would claim that the labor movement made America great. As if the greatness of America didn't exist until there was Jimmy Hoffa.

I guess you skipped a few hundred years.

The labor movement didn't start with Jimmy Hoffa. The labor movement started with brave souls like the Molly Maguires, who....after years of slaving away in coal mines, paid in company script to be used only in company stores....at a huge markup...keeping those workers in perpetual debt...to the company....rebelled against the greed of the company. Yes, they were a violent lot.....but they didn't start out that way....one of the early attempts at unionization were met with violence towards those who joined by the mine owners. The Mollies were formed from a group of Irish-Catholic miners, who decided to meet that violence with vigilante justice.

The thing about the Mollies is that you have to consider the time....were talking late...to...post Civil War America. The idea of organized labor was such an affront to the industrialists and those industrialists had so much economic and political power, that they could call up the entire resources of the state to squash any attempts of labor to organize....militia, National Guard...even regular Army. People often talk about unions being "thugs", but the truth of the matter is that in the early days, the thuggery was heavily in favor of the powerful....not the unions.

Yes....shit got out of hand in the 70's....The OPEC oil embargo kicked a lot of businesses' asses. We as a country were woefully unprepared for that particular hardship....and the unions wouldn't budge....they were too powerful, too proud to make reasonable concessions. So the business owners fought back....politically. In 1980, they helped Reagan get elected....who effectively squashed private sector unions.

Flash forward 30+ years and the modern industrialists(Corporatists) are thriving and 40-50% of the workforce needs some sort of government assistance to eke out a living. We slid too far in the other direction.

Now...I saw eflatminor say about taking a job "voluntarily", that there is no "forced labor" in America...yet the choices for many seem to be either take that shitty job, or go on welfare. So yes, at the rudimentary level....it is voluntary. But if you dig a little deeper than the surface? It's "take it or be a welfare bum". Not much of a choice really, and our society should be applauded for the fact that most people choose choice A rather than B. Yes, many of them are subsidized in the form of food stamps, Medicaid, and or housing assistance, but they are working and doing the best they can.

I was being a smart ass about Hoffa. Just having fun.



I know the labor movement very well. I used to be very very very left wing.

You don't have to be left wing to be pro-labor. I am a left LEANING Centrist and being pro-labor.....and a couple other issues are the really the only ones that I lean left on. I just happen to think that a healthy, well paid workforce is the cornerstone of a healthy economy.....more people with money to spend is good for everyone in the long run.

 

[Bfgrn]

How is the war on hunger going?

A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde

In his 90 years, George McGovern never became a cynic. You can never say that. Pity...

 

[buckeye45_73]

The labor movement didn't start with Jimmy Hoffa. The labor movement started with brave souls like the Molly Maguires, who....after years of slaving away in coal mines, paid in company script to be used only in company stores....at a huge markup...keeping those workers in perpetual debt...to the company....rebelled against the greed of the company. Yes, they were a violent lot.....but they didn't start out that way....one of the early attempts at unionization were met with violence towards those who joined by the mine owners. The Mollies were formed from a group of Irish-Catholic miners, who decided to meet that violence with vigilante justice.

The thing about the Mollies is that you have to consider the time....were talking late...to...post Civil War America. The idea of organized labor was such an affront to the industrialists and those industrialists had so much economic and political power, that they could call up the entire resources of the state to squash any attempts of labor to organize....militia, National Guard...even regular Army. People often talk about unions being "thugs", but the truth of the matter is that in the early days, the thuggery was heavily in favor of the powerful....not the unions.

Yes....shit got out of hand in the 70's....The OPEC oil embargo kicked a lot of businesses' asses. We as a country were woefully unprepared for that particular hardship....and the unions wouldn't budge....they were too powerful, too proud to make reasonable concessions. So the business owners fought back....politically. In 1980, they helped Reagan get elected....who effectively squashed private sector unions.

Flash forward 30+ years and the modern industrialists(Corporatists) are thriving and 40-50% of the workforce needs some sort of government assistance to eke out a living. We slid too far in the other direction.

Now...I saw eflatminor say about taking a job "voluntarily", that there is no "forced labor" in America...yet the choices for many seem to be either take that shitty job, or go on welfare. So yes, at the rudimentary level....it is voluntary. But if you dig a little deeper than the surface? It's "take it or be a welfare bum". Not much of a choice really, and our society should be applauded for the fact that most people choose choice A rather than B. Yes, many of them are subsidized in the form of food stamps, Medicaid, and or housing assistance, but they are working and doing the best they can.

I was being a smart ass about Hoffa. Just having fun.



I know the labor movement very well. I used to be very very very left wing.

You don't have to be left wing to be pro-labor. I am a left LEANING Centrist and being pro-labor.....and a couple other issues are the really the only ones that I lean left on. I just happen to think that a healthy, well paid workforce is the cornerstone of a healthy economy.....more people with money to spend is good for everyone in the long run.

The problem is it's artificial....it doesnt mean anything...because to keep that up you have to keep raising the min wage....which is just inflation.... and for those that make a decent amount over the min wage....when you raise it...they get fucked big time.....

 

[Steelplate]

I was being a smart ass about Hoffa. Just having fun.



I know the labor movement very well. I used to be very very very left wing.

You don't have to be left wing to be pro-labor. I am a left LEANING Centrist and being pro-labor.....and a couple other issues are the really the only ones that I lean left on. I just happen to think that a healthy, well paid workforce is the cornerstone of a healthy economy.....more people with money to spend is good for everyone in the long run.

The problem is it's artificial....it doesnt mean anything...because to keep that up you have to keep raising the min wage....which is just inflation.... and for those that make a decent amount over the min wage....when you raise it...they get fucked big time.....

Who said anything about mandating? I'm talking about labor organizing and negotiating the best deal they can get. Government has nothing in this. You see, why is it OK for a Corporation to be an organization with all the power and resources that an organized entity has, and the the worker not have anything but a need to make a living?

Now....at the same time, I think unions should be limited to negotiating Contracts and fairly representing members in disciplinary matters. Management should have full discretion in terms of productivity and company policy.....meaning if a worker doesn't meet productivity needs....screwing off, lateness and absenteeism, etc......he/she will be disciplined ranging from a verbal warning all the way to termination. Breaking company policies(failing drug tests, theft, etc.) should be at the sole discretion of the employer to decide the course of action......for instance....

Jimmy is a good employee.....he works hard, shows up on time everyday, and has no problem doing anything that is asked of him.....Jimmy goes to a party and smokes a little dope....he fails a random drug test. It should be up to the employer whether, because of Jimmy's excellent work ethic, they choose to let it slide with a warning, or to fire him. Likewise, with a not so good employee in a similar situation....they could easily use an infraction such as this to let him/her go.

But both Jimmy and the not so good employee should be able to be represented.....not to get them off the hook, but to make sure they are being treated fairly.