Electoral College vs. Direct Democracy

hazlnut

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Sep 18, 2012
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I didn't not vote for President Elect Trump, but I respect the will of the people and give the incoming President a chance to succeed.

Following the election outcome there has been a call the abolish the Electoral College. This same thing happens every four year regardless of popular vote outcome -- people on the losing side always calling foul with our electoral college system. In 2012 it was Donald Trump himself who tweeted (of course) the electoral college was 'a disaster for democracy'.

I would argue we need the electoral college now more than ever. It is imperfect, but it is the best way to balance competing interests in our Republic. I say now more than ever because of the dense concentration of population in our big city urban centers with universities as well as headquarters of big business and finance. There may be competing interests within the urban/suburban areas, but the the electoral map shows that they are predominately blue. Without the electoral college, this majority would have the power to trample the minority living in the rural areas and smaller cities and towns. Individual states have an interest in federal policy, but states like Wyoming and the Dakotas might potentially have their voices drowned out in a direct democracy.

The founders were visionaries, thoughtful men who saw the potential harm of a direct democracy at the federal level. They devised a system to better protect against factions or the interests of population centers.

LINK

James Madison worried about what he called “factions,” which he defined as groups of citizens who have a common interest in some proposal that would either violate the rights of other citizens or would harm the nation as a whole. Madison’s fear – which Alexis de Tocqueville later dubbed “the tyranny of the majority” – was that a faction could grow to encompass more than 50 percent of the population, at which point it could“sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens.” Madison has a solution for tyranny of the majority: “A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place, opens a different prospect, and promises the cure for which we are seeking.”

Rural areas, small and medium sized towns are naturally going have smaller populations, less voters. Their interests get representation in Congress at the district and state level-- many states split their vote and have one Dem and one GOP senator. But these smaller population areas, even when we add all their numbers together, they are still smaller than a single big city, look at Illinois--a mostly red state with a blue patch up in the corner. To prove that at the state level the blue patch (Chicago) doesn't always get its way, they have a Republican Governor.

If you really want to understand the potential harm of a direct democracy, the tyranny of the majority trampling over the minority, you need only look at California and Prop 8. In one night, through a ballet measure championed by out-of-state religious interests, 17,000 legally married couples had their rights stripped away and put on hold for five years. The check against this trampling of minority rights ultimately fell on SCOTUS and it was Justice Kennedy who saw the harm caused to LBGT families and their children. Many "values" minded people didn't like the decision, and they even argued for abolishing the court or limiting its judicial review authority-- Those "values" folks forget that it was also Kennedy who vigorously tried to pursued Chief Justice Roberts to overturn Obamacare.

Bottom line, in America, the losing side has a short memory. We can all be sore losers and cry babies. When Americans don't get their way they can be fickle and hypercritical in their support of our system and traditions for balance of power and protect of right-- all found in the Constitution. LBGT were patient in waiting for justice, letting the system play itself out.

Voters in the rust belt and other states with gutted factories and plants have had their voices heard. To dismiss them as invalid is, IMHO, un-American. Protest peacefully and lawfully if you feel you must, but maybe take a trip out to Ohio, Penn, drive through some small towns with boarded up buildings, massive junkyards and scrap piles and meet some of your fellow Americans and hear their stories. I plan to.
 
I didn't not vote for President Elect Trump, but I respect the will of the people and give the incoming President a chance to succeed.

Following the election outcome there has been a call the abolish the Electoral College. This same thing happens every four year regardless of popular vote outcome -- people on the losing side always calling foul with our electoral college system. In 2012 it was Donald Trump himself who tweeted (of course) the electoral college was 'a disaster for democracy'.

I would argue we need the electoral college now more than ever. It is imperfect, but it is the best way to balance competing interests in our Republic. I say now more than ever because of the dense concentration of population in our big city urban centers with universities as well as headquarters of big business and finance. There may be competing interests within the urban/suburban areas, but the the electoral map shows that they are predominately blue. Without the electoral college, this majority would have the power to trample the minority living in the rural areas and smaller cities and towns. Individual states have an interest in federal policy, but states like Wyoming and the Dakotas might potentially have their voices drowned out in a direct democracy.

The founders were visionaries, thoughtful men who saw the potential harm of a direct democracy at the federal level. They devised a system to better protect against factions or the interests of population centers.

LINK

James Madison worried about what he called “factions,” which he defined as groups of citizens who have a common interest in some proposal that would either violate the rights of other citizens or would harm the nation as a whole. Madison’s fear – which Alexis de Tocqueville later dubbed “the tyranny of the majority” – was that a faction could grow to encompass more than 50 percent of the population, at which point it could“sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens.” Madison has a solution for tyranny of the majority: “A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place, opens a different prospect, and promises the cure for which we are seeking.”

Rural areas, small and medium sized towns are naturally going have smaller populations, less voters. Their interests get representation in Congress at the district and state level-- many states split their vote and have one Dem and one GOP senator. But these smaller population areas, even when we add all their numbers together, they are still smaller than a single big city, look at Illinois--a mostly red state with a blue patch up in the corner. To prove that at the state level the blue patch (Chicago) doesn't always get its way, they have a Republican Governor.

If you really want to understand the potential harm of a direct democracy, the tyranny of the majority trampling over the minority, you need only look at California and Prop 8. In one night, through a ballet measure championed by out-of-state religious interests, 17,000 legally married couples had their rights stripped away and put on hold for five years. The check against this trampling of minority rights ultimately fell on SCOTUS and it was Justice Kennedy who saw the harm caused to LBGT families and their children. Many "values" minded people didn't like the decision, and they even argued for abolishing the court or limiting its judicial review authority-- Those "values" folks forget that it was also Kennedy who vigorously tried to pursued Chief Justice Roberts to overturn Obamacare.

Bottom line, in America, the losing side has a short memory. We can all be sore losers and cry babies. When Americans don't get their way they can be fickle and hypercritical in their support of our system and traditions for balance of power and protect of right-- all found in the Constitution. LBGT were patient in waiting for justice, letting the system play itself out.

Voters in the rust belt and other states with gutted factories and plants have had their voices heard. To dismiss them as invalid is, IMHO, un-American. Protest peacefully and lawfully if you feel you must, but maybe take a trip out to Ohio, Penn, drive through some small towns with boarded up buildings, massive junkyards and scrap piles and meet some of your fellow Americans and hear their stories. I plan to.
Direct democracy does not mean popular vote.

Direct democracy is a concept where people vote on all issues instead of elected lawmakers. Though somewhat utopian, it could theoretically be made easier by computers and the internet:

Direct democracy - Wikipedia
 
Great post. The EC is vital to giving the most Americans a voice in Presidential Elections.

What is more needed is for the States (50 states) to stop outsourcing elections to the parties. Iowa and NH largely get to select who goes on and who packs it in. The old saying is that there are “3 tickets out of Iowa” is almost always true (you have to finish in the top 3 in Iowa to stay in the race). I think we should have 10 states vote at a time in regional primaries; once a month. The primary season lasts 5 months anyway so what is the downside? Give more voters a chance to weigh in on who gets to move on.

But the EC needs to stay put.
 
I didn't not vote for President Elect Trump, but I respect the will of the people and give the incoming President a chance to succeed.

Following the election outcome there has been a call the abolish the Electoral College. This same thing happens every four year regardless of popular vote outcome -- people on the losing side always calling foul with our electoral college system. In 2012 it was Donald Trump himself who tweeted (of course) the electoral college was 'a disaster for democracy'.

I would argue we need the electoral college now more than ever. It is imperfect, but it is the best way to balance competing interests in our Republic. I say now more than ever because of the dense concentration of population in our big city urban centers with universities as well as headquarters of big business and finance. There may be competing interests within the urban/suburban areas, but the the electoral map shows that they are predominately blue. Without the electoral college, this majority would have the power to trample the minority living in the rural areas and smaller cities and towns. Individual states have an interest in federal policy, but states like Wyoming and the Dakotas might potentially have their voices drowned out in a direct democracy.

The founders were visionaries, thoughtful men who saw the potential harm of a direct democracy at the federal level. They devised a system to better protect against factions or the interests of population centers.

LINK

James Madison worried about what he called “factions,” which he defined as groups of citizens who have a common interest in some proposal that would either violate the rights of other citizens or would harm the nation as a whole. Madison’s fear – which Alexis de Tocqueville later dubbed “the tyranny of the majority” – was that a faction could grow to encompass more than 50 percent of the population, at which point it could“sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens.” Madison has a solution for tyranny of the majority: “A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place, opens a different prospect, and promises the cure for which we are seeking.”

Rural areas, small and medium sized towns are naturally going have smaller populations, less voters. Their interests get representation in Congress at the district and state level-- many states split their vote and have one Dem and one GOP senator. But these smaller population areas, even when we add all their numbers together, they are still smaller than a single big city, look at Illinois--a mostly red state with a blue patch up in the corner. To prove that at the state level the blue patch (Chicago) doesn't always get its way, they have a Republican Governor.

If you really want to understand the potential harm of a direct democracy, the tyranny of the majority trampling over the minority, you need only look at California and Prop 8. In one night, through a ballet measure championed by out-of-state religious interests, 17,000 legally married couples had their rights stripped away and put on hold for five years. The check against this trampling of minority rights ultimately fell on SCOTUS and it was Justice Kennedy who saw the harm caused to LBGT families and their children. Many "values" minded people didn't like the decision, and they even argued for abolishing the court or limiting its judicial review authority-- Those "values" folks forget that it was also Kennedy who vigorously tried to pursued Chief Justice Roberts to overturn Obamacare.

Bottom line, in America, the losing side has a short memory. We can all be sore losers and cry babies. When Americans don't get their way they can be fickle and hypercritical in their support of our system and traditions for balance of power and protect of right-- all found in the Constitution. LBGT were patient in waiting for justice, letting the system play itself out.

Voters in the rust belt and other states with gutted factories and plants have had their voices heard. To dismiss them as invalid is, IMHO, un-American. Protest peacefully and lawfully if you feel you must, but maybe take a trip out to Ohio, Penn, drive through some small towns with boarded up buildings, massive junkyards and scrap piles and meet some of your fellow Americans and hear their stories. I plan to.
Direct democracy does not mean popular vote.

Direct democracy is a concept where people vote on all issues instead of elected lawmakers. Though somewhat utopian, it could theoretically be made easier by computers and the internet:

Direct democracy - Wikipedia
A direct democracy is control by a majority, a Mobocracy! Who will have their inalienable individual rights we enjoy today if a Mobocracy decides which individual right are retained by the individual and which are subsumed by the MOB!

One cannot find any source authorizing a national referendum or plebiscite within the four corners of the Constitution for the simple reason that the founders were well aware of the mischief's of factions and majority rule. If you need a prime example of the folly of a Mobocracy, look to the rapid rise and fall of the Third Reich! A majority could have the power to install a leader as Dictator for Life as they did back in the early 1930's.

I'm thinking you really need to spend some time reading and understanding the Constitution and the thoughts and intentions of the Framers from sources like the Federalist Papers, especially what Madison wrote about faction in Federalist #10! Don't bother with Wikipedia as any type of authoritative source!
 
A direct democracy is control by a majority, a Mobocracy! Who will have their inalienable individual rights we enjoy today if a Mobocracy decides which individual right are retained by the individual and which are subsumed by the MOB!

One cannot find any source authorizing a national referendum or plebiscite within the four corners of the Constitution for the simple reason that the founders were well aware of the mischief's of factions and majority rule. If you need a prime example of the folly of a Mobocracy, look to the rapid rise and fall of the Third Reich! A majority could have the power to install a leader as Dictator for Life as they did back in the early 1930's.
Figures you need to attack a utopian concept which the op mistakenly quoted, and is not what the thread is about.

To top it off, you link it with Nazis for no apparent reason.

"Shitpost first" should be your motto.
 
I'm thinking you really need to spend some time reading and understanding the Constitution and the thoughts and intentions of the Framers from sources like the Federalist Papers, especially what Madison wrote about faction in Federalist #10! Don't bother with Wikipedia as any type of authoritative source!
Already posted about it here, loser:

Thank GOD for the Electoral College
 
A direct democracy is control by a majority, a Mobocracy! Who will have their inalienable individual rights we enjoy today if a Mobocracy decides which individual right are retained by the individual and which are subsumed by the MOB!

One cannot find any source authorizing a national referendum or plebiscite within the four corners of the Constitution for the simple reason that the founders were well aware of the mischief's of factions and majority rule. If you need a prime example of the folly of a Mobocracy, look to the rapid rise and fall of the Third Reich! A majority could have the power to install a leader as Dictator for Life as they did back in the early 1930's.
Figures you need to attack a utopian concept which the op mistakenly quoted, and is not what the thread is about.

To top it off, you link it with Nazis for no apparent reason.

"Shitpost first" should be your motto.
Hey shit for brains, I quoted what you wrote about a Direct Democracy and dealt with that topic exclusively, asshole!! Your wounded pride is duly noted as is your inability to respond to the KNOWN historical FACTS pertinent to the topic at hand!

The reason the example of Germany in the early 1930's was employed was simply to link majority rule Mobocracy of that period to the German 1934 referendum, an example of your touted paradigm, which merged the offices of Chancellor and President with that vote and essentially projected A. Hitler as the de facto dictator of Germany!

If you understood a little history or, Heaven forbid, edified yourself on a topic of which you were so woefully ignorant, that point would NOT have gone over your inflated head! You believe you know more than you've displayed, but you're living in a fool's paradise!
 

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