Zone1 Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ

[Meriweather]

How can a man enter again into his mother's womb?

Go to the source. Ask Nicodemus.

 

[hadit]

Go to the source. Ask Nicodemus.

You get the point, finally. Jesus said a lot of things that people didn't understand that He never intended to be taken literally.

 

[hadit]

You don't think one needs to literally be incorporated into The Way, the life of Christ?

Jesus said it. The literalists on here should be trying to stuff grown people back into their mothers.

 

[hadit]

In the name of Jesus Christ and under the authority of Jesus Christ. It was his command which you find repulsive and reject. But what is more concerning is that you don't believe Jesus is capable of performing this act and don't have enough faith in Christ that he will transform the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ for no other reason than he is asked to do so by people who have enough faith in him that he will do so if asked.

You are ignoring His command to be born again, are you not? I mean, since you're all literal about it and stuff. Why would I think Jesus can't transform bread into flesh and wine into blood? He transformed nothing into the everything we see and water into wine without so much as a word. He transformed a raging storm into calm with a word. I simply don't believe He wants to or sees the need to put part of His flesh and blood into bread and wine.

 

[ding]

Jesus said it. The literalists on here should be trying to stuff grown people back into their mothers.

How old do you think the earth is, Mr. Literalist?

 

[ding]

You are ignoring His command to be born again, are you not? I mean, since you're all literal about it and stuff. Why would I think Jesus can't transform bread into flesh and wine into blood? He transformed nothing into the everything we see and water into wine without so much as a word. He transformed a raging storm into calm with a word. I simply don't believe He wants to or sees the need to put part of His flesh and blood into bread and wine.

You don't believe it because it shocks you. It repulses you. The same as it repulsed the disciples that left him because of it. And he let them leave rather than making it symbolic.

 

[hadit]

How old do you think the earth is, Mr. Literalist?

The Bible does not say, but science says 4 billion years, give or take a decade or so. And why do you call me a literalist, given that you insist something Jesus said has to be taken literally when I don't?

 

[ding]

...He never intended to be taken literally.

Why? Because what he commanded was offensive? Shocking? Repulsive?

The first Christians didn't think so.

The Real Presence is taught by St. Paul. “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 11:26-27).

The Real Presence was taught by the twelve apostles. “Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: ‘Do not give to dogs what is sacred” (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, or Didache, 9:5).

The Real Presence was upheld by early Christians.

It was upheld by St. Ignatius of Antioch in the first century: “Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, circa 90 AD).

It was upheld by St. Justin Martyr in the second century: “This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus” (St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, circa 150 AD).

It was upheld by St. Clement of Alexandria in the third century: “The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, – of the drink and of the Word, – is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word” (St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor of the Children, circa 202 AD).

It was upheld by St. Cyril of Jerusalem in the fourth century: “Since then He Himself has declared and said of the Bread, (This is My Body), who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has affirmed and said, (This is My Blood), who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?” (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, circa 350 AD).

 

[hadit]

You don't believe it because it shocks you. It repulses you. The same as it repulsed the disciples that left him because of it. And he let them leave rather than making it symbolic.

And you ignore the rest of the passage that you think is not literal. If He really meant it literally, why did not the Jews around Him tear Him to pieces and eat Him? You should also have stopped getting hungry a long time ago, but you still do.

 

[hadit]

Why? Because what he commanded was offensive? Shocking? Repulsive?

The first Christians didn't think so.

You tell me. How did your mom react when you told her you needed to be born again? Nothing else Jesus told His followers to do is shocking or repulsive, why do you insist this one has to be?

 

[ding]

And you ignore the rest of the passage that you think is not literal. If He really meant it literally, why did not the Jews around Him tear Him to pieces and eat Him? You should also have stopped getting hungry a long time ago, but you still do.

There is no part of that passage that suggests it is symbolic. He let MANY disciples walk away because he wouldn't make it symbolic.

 

[ding]

You should also have stopped getting hungry a long time ago, but you still do.

That's the dumbest logic in the world. Walk me through it.

 

[ding]

You tell me. How did your mom react when you told her you needed to be born again? Nothing else Jesus told His followers to do is shocking or repulsive, why do you insist this one has to be?

She baptized me. I'm pretty sure she already knew.

Are you admitting that you don't believe his command was real because you are shocked and/or repulsed by his command?

 

[ding]

why do you insist this one has to be?

Because Jesus insisted. Why do you believe the first Christians believed it? Why do you believe Paul said, “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 11:26-27).

 

[ding]

The Bible does not say, but science says 4 billion years, give or take a decade or so. And why do you call me a literalist, given that you insist something Jesus said has to be taken literally when I don't?

I'm asking YOU how old YOU believe the earth is? Your answer will determine if you read Genesis literally.

 

[ding]

And why do you call me a literalist, given that you insist something Jesus said has to be taken literally when I don't?

Because Jesus literally said it and rather than make it a symbolic statement he let MANY of his disciples walk away from him.

St. Paul tells you the eucharist is literally the body and blood of Christ in 1 Corinthians 11:26-27 and you ignore that too.

 

[hadit]

There is no part of that passage that suggests it is symbolic. He let MANY disciples walk away because he wouldn't make it symbolic.

So why do you continue getting hungry and aging?

 

[hadit]

That's the dumbest logic in the world. Walk me through it.

Jesus said that anyone who came to Him would not get hungry or thirsty again and would live forever. Obviously, He did not intend for that to be taken literally. Like I've said, He said many things He didn't intend to be taken literally and didn't always carefully explain to the immediate crowd exactly what He meant, leaving it to the Holy Spirit to make all things known after His ascension.

 

[ding]

So why do you continue getting hungry and aging?

Because I am a spiritual being experiencing a human existence. It's a requirement for a human existence.

 

[ding]

Jesus said that anyone who came to Him would not get hungry or thirsty again and would live forever. Obviously, He did not intend for that to be taken literally. Like I've said, He said many things He didn't intend to be taken literally and didn't always carefully explain to the immediate crowd exactly what He meant, leaving it to the Holy Spirit to make all things known after His ascension.

But he did intend for that to be taken literally. Just like he intended the flesh is of no avail to be taken literally. What you fail to understand is that you are a spiritual being experiencing a human existence. You are not a human being experiencing a spiritual existence. When I die only my material existence dies. I have eternal life. What Jesus was referring to was a spiritual existence, not a human existence. So saying the flesh is of no avail and that anyone who comes to him has eternal life are true statements. Your flesh isn't important. It's going to die. You came from dust and from dust you shall return. Surely you don't believe that after you die and your spirit lives on that you will be hungry or thirsty, right?