Dresden in 1945

[Zebra]

It is a "cliche" since the Germans never invested nor beheld a Strategic Bombing Doctrine - nor force - (it died out upon Hitler objecting to it, and Gen. Wevers death in IIRC 1936), unlike e.g. Britain. And the inventor of the Strategic Bombing Doctrine was an Italian - aka Gulio Douhet.

And it was also him who served as commander of the Aeronautical Battalion, Italy's first aviation unit (also the first to practice aerial bombardment, in Libya also against civilian targets during Italy’s war with Turkey, 1911–12). That was even before WW I.

Largely because of his efforts, the three-engine Caproni bomber was ready for use by the time Italy entered World War I.

Entente aircraft of WW I, had bombed German houses and killed civilians in the Strasbourg region - as retaliation the Germans used the Zeppelin to bomb e.g. London.

Legion Condor was under the supreme command by Franco and the Spanish Nationalists - they ordered the attack onto e.g. Guernica (wildly exaggerated reports) to support their land offensive towards Guernica, and not Legion Condor’s chief of staff, Oberstleutnant Wolfram von Richthofen.

The Luftwaffe was the first (during the Poland attack) to also intentionally bomb cities (aka, industrial and logistic targets - determined to be "legal" targets) during WW2, thus logically causing casualties amongst civilians. The final Luftwaffe air-raids onto e.g. Warsaw in 1939 beheld the exact same doctrine as the bombing raids by the British and the USAAF - flatten the cities industrial and logistical abilities (legal), and thereby kill as many civilians as possible, to demoralize the population and the respective government.

Same goes for Dresden - one can be dead sure that there where "military supporting" industries in Dresden. Even a bicycle workshop or one punching holes into leather belts for the Wehrmacht, - independent of Dresden's huge railway hub, would therefore "legalize" the bombing attack. If it was "necessary" is another topic. And again the same applies towards them nukes, tested over Japan.

well said!

 

[Grau]

^ Waste of typing.

What's your problem?
This is a debate forum and you're only communicating that you can't refute anything I just wrote.

I've been civil and respectful while supporting irrefutable facts that neither you nor the conspicuously mute Stryder50 simply don't like.

I do not support Hamas and am only stating the fact that Netanyahu etc cannot kill their way to security.

My first loyalty is to America and America's aiding and abetting what about half of Americans consider genocide(1) is not in America's best interests.

As long as foreign lobbies like AIPAC shape US Middle East policy, generations of young Americans will die for Israel's regional hegemony:

“QUIETLY LOBBYING CONGRESS TO APPROVE THE USE OF FORCE IN IRAQ WAS ONE OF AIPAC’S SUCCESSES OVER THE PAST YEAR.”
AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr; N.Y. Sun, Jan. 2003

(1). "Half of Americans think Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, UMass-Amherst/WCVB poll finds"​

Half of Americans think Israel is committing genocide, poll finds

While slightly more than half of Americans support Israel's war in Gaza, half of Americans also believe Israel is committing genocide, the poll finds.

www.wcvb.com

 

[zaangalewa]

Did the Germans not start the bombing of civilian population centers and firebombing?

No.

Is not a "cliché" if it's true.

 

[zaangalewa]

... Same goes for Dresden - one can be dead sure that there where "military supporting" industries in Dresden. Even a bicycle workshop or one punching holes into leather belts for the Wehrmacht, - independent of Dresden's huge railway hub, would therefore "legalize" the bombing attack. If it was "necessary" is another topic. And again the same applies towards them nukes, tested over Japan.

No military supporting industries had been in Dresden. You murdered in masses refugees in Dresden. And Dresden is not in Japan. In Japan for example the populations of Nagasaki and Hieroshima had been murdered: men, women, children.

 

[fncceo]

Horrible. USA had no business being in WW2. We knew about Pearl Harbor in advance. FDR had ships moved from San Diego to Pearl Harbor prior hoping for maximum damage and death as justification for entering the war. Nothing more than bailing out the Rothchilds and the American Federal Reserve scum. Virtually all of Latin America was neutral (as was the USA) or pro Germany.
British Intelligence had 2 floors of free office space, courtesy of Rockefeller, in NYC to engage in pro war propaganda.

 

[Grau]

That’s an interesting piece of propaganda, but you forgot to mention that both Guernica and Warsaw had been declared open cities before being bombed. Being an open city means that it won’t be defended, Dresden was well defended by both flak and day as well as night fighters. The cases are in no way comparable.

Re:

Dresden was well defended by both flak and day as well as night fighters. The cases are in no way comparable.

Even a casual student of WW 2 knows that Dresden was virtually undefended as reported by eyewitnesses.


"I survived the bombing of Dresden and continue to believe it was a war crime"
Victor Gregg

I survived the bombing of Dresden and continue to believe it was a war crime | Victor Gregg

Victor Gregg: As a prisoner of war held in Dresden, I still suffer the memories of those terrible events and my anger refuses to subside

www.theguardian.com

EXCERPT "As the incendiaries fell, the phosphorus clung to the bodies of those below, turning them into human torches. The screaming of those who were being burned alive was added to the cries of those not yet hit.

There was no need for flares to lead the second wave of bombers to their target, as the whole city had become a gigantic torch. It must have been visible to the pilots from a hundred miles away. Dresden had no defences, no anti-aircraft guns, no searchlights, nothing.

My account of this tragedy, Dresden: A Survivor's Story, was published on the day of the anniversary this week. I gave a number of interviews around the publication, in which I insisted that the affair was a war crime at the highest level, a stain upon the name Englishman that only an apology made in full public view would suffice to obliterate."CONTINUED

 

[ShahdagMountains]

What's your problem?
This is a debate forum and you're only communicating that you can't refute anything I just wrote.

I've been civil and respectful while supporting irrefutable facts that neither you nor the conspicuously mute Stryder50 simply don't like.

I do not support Hamas and am only stating the fact that Netanyahu etc cannot kill their way to security.

My first loyalty is to America and America's aiding and abetting what about half of Americans consider genocide(1) is not in America's best interests.

As long as foreign lobbies like AIPAC shape US Middle East policy, generations of young Americans will die for Israel's regional hegemony:

“QUIETLY LOBBYING CONGRESS TO APPROVE THE USE OF FORCE IN IRAQ WAS ONE OF AIPAC’S SUCCESSES OVER THE PAST YEAR.”
AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr; N.Y. Sun, Jan. 2003

(1). "Half of Americans think Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, UMass-Amherst/WCVB poll finds"​

Half of Americans think Israel is committing genocide, poll finds

While slightly more than half of Americans support Israel's war in Gaza, half of Americans also believe Israel is committing genocide, the poll finds.

www.wcvb.com

What's your problem?
This is a debate forum and you're only communicating that you can't refute anything I just wrote.

I've been civil and respectful while supporting irrefutable facts that neither you nor the conspicuously mute Stryder50 simply don't like.

I do not support Hamas and am only stating the fact that Netanyahu etc cannot kill their way to security.

My first loyalty is to America and America's aiding and abetting what about half of Americans consider genocide(1) is not in America's best interests.

As long as foreign lobbies like AIPAC shape US Middle East policy, generations of young Americans will die for Israel's regional hegemony:

What's your problem?
This is a debate forum and you're only communicating that you can't refute anything I just wrote.

I've been civil and respectful while supporting irrefutable facts that neither you nor the conspicuously mute Stryder50 simply don't like.

I do not support Hamas and am only stating the fact that Netanyahu etc cannot kill their way to security.

My first loyalty is to America and America's aiding and abetting what about half of Americans consider genocide(1) is not in America's best interests.

As long as foreign lobbies like AIPAC shape US Middle East policy, generations of young Americans will die for Israel's regional hegemony:

“QUIETLY LOBBYING CONGRESS TO APPROVE THE USE OF FORCE IN IRAQ WAS ONE OF AIPAC’S SUCCESSES OVER THE PAST YEAR.”
AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr; N.Y. Sun, Jan. 2003

(1). "Half of Americans think Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, UMass-Amherst/WCVB poll finds"​

Half of Americans think Israel is committing genocide, poll finds

While slightly more than half of Americans support Israel's war in Gaza, half of Americans also believe Israel is committing genocide, the poll finds.

www.wcvb.com

l wouldn’t say calling Stryder50 conspicuously mute as being civil and respectful.

I don’t care what half of America thinks.

 

[zaangalewa]

Do you mean Dresden's Frauenkirche that was destroyed and rebuilt in 2005 (I think)? ...

A great job where many members of the allies of world war 2 had helped.



Now give thanks to God
with heart, mouth and hands,
who does great things
in us and in all things,
who from our mother's womb
and from childhood
countless good things
has done until here.

May the eternally rich God
may our lives be
an ever cheerful heart
and noble peace
and keep us in his mercy
and keep us always
and deliver us from all distress
here and there.
...

 

[Grau]

I have yet to hear from a single individual whose sole source of information about WW 2 comes from fictional and melodramatic Hollywood WW 2 movies who knows the name of America's propaganda ministry, the O.W.I. (Office of War Information).

George Orwell must have had WW 2 in mind when he wrote:

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past."
Otherwise, there would not be so many gullible individuals who are oblivious to the realities of WW 2 such as:


“Hitler didn’t start indiscriminate bombings — Churchill did”
Hitler didn't start indiscriminate bombings — Churchill did

EXCERPT “Up until Churchill’s appointment as prime minister both Germany and Britain had stuck to a pledge not to attack targets in each other’s cities where civilians were at risk.

Overy dismisses the long-held belief ‘firmly rooted in the British public mind’ that Hitler initiated the trend for indiscriminate bombings. Instead, he says, the decision to take the gloves off was Churchill’s, ‘because of the crisis in the Battle of France, not because of German air raids [over Britain].’” CONTINUED

 

[Zebra]

and ….


do you know about the Death March in Brno or Brünn?
in 1945.

another war crime

 

[Grau]

and ….


do you know about the Death March in Brno or Brünn?
in 1945.

another war crime

Yes, the German landlady / landlord who owned the house where a friend of mine lived was one of the few who survived that particular death march.

One of the more detailed sources on the tragedy is:

"The Brünner Todesmarsch Silent Memorials to the Genocide Against Germans"

The Brünner Todesmarsch Silent Memorials to the Genocide Against Germans

The Brünner Todesmarsch Silent Memorials to the Genocide Against Germans, Red Army, Czechs, Genocide of Germans, Women, Children, World War Two, British, Americans

www.exulanten.com

Another source lists the general expulsion and mass murder of ethnic Germans in the East as one of the top ten genocides in history:


"Expulsion of Ethnic Germans after World War II (1945)"
https://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-horrific-genocides-in-history.php

EXCERPT "However, the forced displacement of some 14 million ethnic Germans and allied Slavs from Soviet Russia, from occupied areas of Eastern and Central Europe in the aftermath of World War II, has to go down as something pretty close to genocide, especially when one considers that between half a million and two million of them didn’t survive the journey.

While most of these deaths were from famine and disease, many German civilians were also executed outright, or sent to internment and labor camps by the Soviets" CONTINUED

I'm not holding my breath for Hollywood to come out with a Star-studded, Blockbuster movie about Allied war crimes and atrocities.

Thanks,

 

[Zebra]

Yes, the German landlady / landlord who owned the house where a friend of mine lived was one of the few who survived that particular death march.

One of the more detailed sources on the tragedy is:

"The Brünner Todesmarsch Silent Memorials to the Genocide Against Germans"

The Brünner Todesmarsch Silent Memorials to the Genocide Against Germans

The Brünner Todesmarsch Silent Memorials to the Genocide Against Germans, Red Army, Czechs, Genocide of Germans, Women, Children, World War Two, British, Americans

www.exulanten.com

Another source lists the general expulsion and mass murder of ethnic Germans in the East as one of the top ten genocides in history:


"Expulsion of Ethnic Germans after World War II (1945)"
https://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-horrific-genocides-in-history.php

EXCERPT "However, the forced displacement of some 14 million ethnic Germans and allied Slavs from Soviet Russia, from occupied areas of Eastern and Central Europe in the aftermath of World War II, has to go down as something pretty close to genocide, especially when one considers that between half a million and two million of them didn’t survive the journey.

While most of these deaths were from famine and disease, many German civilians were also executed outright, or sent to internment and labor camps by the Soviets" CONTINUED

I'm not holding my breath for Hollywood to come out with a Star-studded, Blockbuster movie about Allied war crimes and atrocities.

Thanks,

you are very right!

 

[Zebra]

that death march of Brünn was a terrible crime!

 

[Mushroom]

do you know about the Death March in Brno or Brünn?

You mean when the Czechoslovakian Government which was already largely a Soviet puppet state expelled almost all ethnic Germans?

That is not a "war crime", as it was done by the local civilian leadership and not the military. Crime against humanity I would agree with, but not a "war crime". No, the Bataan Death March and the like by the Japanese were war crimes, as they were done by the military to the military. Turning civilians into slave labor is a crime against humanity, which the Germans did a lot. Turning POWs into slave labor is a war crime, which the Japanese did a lot.

The Allied Powers had nothing to do with it, that was entirely the local government. With the Czechoslovak Police ensuring it was carried out, not the militaries of any of the Allied nations.

 

[Zebra]

You mean when the Czechoslovakian Government which was already largely a Soviet puppet state expelled almost all ethnic Germans?

That is not a "war crime", as it was done by the local civilian leadership and not the military. Crime against humanity I would agree with, but not a "war crime". No, the Bataan Death March and the like by the Japanese were war crimes, as they were done by the military to the military. Turning civilians into slave labor is a crime against humanity, which the Germans did a lot. Turning POWs into slave labor is a war crime, which the Japanese did a lot.

The Allied Powers had nothing to do with it, that was entirely the local government. With the Czechoslovak Police ensuring it was carried out, not the militaries of any of the Allied nations.

just google for that death march …..

 

[Mushroom]

just google for that death march

Did I ever say it did not happen?

No.

It was conducted by the Soviet led "People's Committee of Brno", and the civilian authorities are the ones that required all of German descent to register, then deported them. In fact, prior to expulsion forcing them to wear armbands when in public. But it was unquestionably the civilian authorities that did it, not the Allies.

Please prove any kind of reference that was wrong.

 

[AMart]

View attachment 903699

Pearl Harbor: Hawaii Was Surprised; FDR Was Not​

Pearl Harbor: Hawaii Was Surprised; FDR Was Not

Comprehensive research has shown not only that Washington knew in advance of the attack on Pearl Harbor, but that it deliberately withheld its foreknowledge from our commanders in Hawaii in the hope that the "surprise" attack would catapult the U.S. into World War II. By James Perloff

thenewamerican.com

British Security Co-ordination (BSC) was a covert organisation set up in New York City by the British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) in May 1940 upon the authorisation of the Prime Minister, Winston Churchill.

Its purpose was to investigate enemy activities, prevent sabotage against British interests in the Americas, and mobilise pro-British opinion in the Americas. As a 'huge secret agency of nationwide news manipulation and black propaganda', the BSC influenced news coverage in the Herald Tribune, the New York Post, The Baltimore Sun, and Radio New York Worldwide.[1] The stories disseminated from the organisation's offices at Rockefeller Center would then be legitimately picked up by other radio stations and newspapers, before being relayed to the American public.[1] Through this, anti-German stories were placed in major American media outlets to help turn public opinion.[2]

British Security Co-ordination - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Its cover was the British Passport Control Office. BSC benefitted from support given by the chief of the US Office of Strategic Services, William J. Donovan (whose organisation was modelled on British activities), and US President Franklin D. Roosevelt who was staunchly anti-Nazi.[3

 

[Mushroom]

British Security Co-ordination (BSC) was a covert organisation set up in New York City by the British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) in May 1940 upon the authorisation of the Prime Minister, Winston Churchill.

And what exactly does this have to do with the topic?

 

[EvilCat Breath]

no comments?

i wonder ….

Didn't you say you were in Germany? Most Americans don't care about Germany. Or anywhere else for that matter. Our news barely mentions other countries. The invaders don't care at all. I doubt that many of them even know that there is a Germany.

 

[AMart]

We should have never been in WW1 or WW2. But it was almost destined because of the satanic bankers. They need to be destroyed.