Dresden in 1945

[Grau]

To be honest, I have now given up. With the most recent posts descending into pure anti-Semitism, I see no reason to even continue. You can't even attempt to reason with unreasonable people.

No, you've "given up" because you can't refute the facts and now must stoop to unsupportable personal slurs about "anti Semitism".

Howling "anti Semite" is a common evasion trick among hate filled supporters of indefensible Zionist genocide:


“Don’t be caught out by ‘the trick’”

Don’t be caught out by ‘the trick'

In August 2002 former Israeli Minister of Education Shulamit Aloni was interviewed on the radio and television program Democracy Now .

www.scoop.co.nz

EXCERPTS "“Well, it’s a trick, we always use it. When from Europe somebody is criticizing Israel, then we bring up the Holocaust. When in this country people are criticizing Israel, then they are anti-Semitic.....

And it’s very easy to blame people who criticize certain acts of the Israeli government as anti-Semitic, and to bring up the Holocaust, and the suffering of the Jewish people, and that is to justify everything we do to the Palestinians.”CONTINUED
Shulamit Aloni

 

[Grau]

For a start, I've presented more factual material backed by sources/links, than you and most others here.

Second, there are more readers than posters and it is proper respect and SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) to give them consideration and realize that others beside "snarky Hasbara(?) trolls" have an interest and need to know fact from fabulous fiction and fable which you appear to be peddling (along with a few others active in this thread, like "Rigby5" for example).

Third, you said in post #129 above: "As always, I'm happy to provide sources to confirm what I've written.". So where is such?
Or is this another lie from you, komrade?

First, I don't remember seeing any of your posts with any supporting sources/links.

Second, what's with the snarky and puerile personal attacks?

If you had read anything I've written you would have seen that have been able to support my assertions with something other than Zionist dominated Wikipedia. (1), (2), (3)


(1). "Course: Zionist Editing on Wikipedia"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52LB2fYhoY


(2) "The right's latest weapon: 'Zionist editing' on Wikipedia" Haaretz"
https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2010/08/the-rights-latest-weapon-zionist-editing-on-wikipedia-haaretz.html

EXCERPT"Now the Yesha Council of settlements and another right-wing group, Israel Sheli, are embarking on a Wikipedia battle: Zionist editing on the Web-based encyclopedia.

The course was designed to teach how to register for, contribute to and edit for Wikipedia."CONTINUED


(3) "Zionist Control of WikiPedia"
http://www.ascertainthetruth.com/at...ls-the-media/429-zionist-control-of-wikipedia

 

[Grau]

Pathetic...

 

[ShahdagMountains]

do you know what happened in Dresden today in 1945?

what do you think about it …. if you know about it?

What l noticed, during a visit there, en route to Poland was: it was the city centre which had been destroyed. The outlying residential areas were virtually untouched. Lots of lovely villas still standing.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

First, I don't remember seeing any of your posts with any supporting sources/links.

Second, what's with the snarky and puerile personal attacks?

If you had read anything I've written you would have seen that have been able to support my assertions with something other than Zionist dominated Wikipedia. (1), (2), (3)


(1). "Course: Zionist Editing on Wikipedia"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52LB2fYhoY


(2) "The right's latest weapon: 'Zionist editing' on Wikipedia" Haaretz"
https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2010/08/the-rights-latest-weapon-zionist-editing-on-wikipedia-haaretz.html

EXCERPT"Now the Yesha Council of settlements and another right-wing group, Israel Sheli, are embarking on a Wikipedia battle: Zionist editing on the Web-based encyclopedia.

The course was designed to teach how to register for, contribute to and edit for Wikipedia."CONTINUED


(3) "Zionist Control of WikiPedia"
http://www.ascertainthetruth.com/at...ls-the-media/429-zionist-control-of-wikipedia

Can’t resist Zionist, can you?

A politically correct word for Jew.

 

[Zebra]

have you seen the new.old FFFFFGGrauenkirche?

 

[Grau]

Can’t resist Zionist, can you?

A politically correct word for Jew.

Just as you can't resist the word "anti Semite" when you can't refute Netanyahu's genocidal agenda.

Even the Jewish author of the second source condemns: "the weaponization of antisemitism accusations to justify Israeli violence against Palestinians,"(2)

The author is not the only Jewish writer to condemn fatuous accusations of "anti Semitism"

The writer / musician, Gilad Atzmon noted:

"An antisemite used to be someone who hates Jews;
nowadays an antisemite is someone Jews hate.” (3)

The difference between Jews and Zionists is that Jews oppose Netanyahu's genocidal agenda and Zionists support it as another step toward "Greater Israel":


(1). “Jews Against Genocide statement and action”

Jews Against Genocide statement and action | IJAN

www.ijan.org

EXCERPT “We, Jews Against Genocide, came to Yad Vashem, Israel’s memorial of the genocide committed against Jews, to honor the Palestinian children who are dying in a genocide committed by Jews.

We brought dolls to symbolise the children of Gaza, and tried to bring a glimpse of the horror that Gazan’s face, to Israel’s doorstep. We hope to show Israel, and the world, the absurd reality of using the memory of one genocide to justify another.” CONTINUED



(2). “A Textbook Case of Genocide”

“Israel has been explicit about what it’s carrying out in Gaza. Why isn’t the world listening?”

A Textbook Case of Genocide

Israel has been explicit about what it’s carrying out in Gaza. Why isn’t the world listening?

jewishcurrents.org

EXCERPT " I have written about settler colonialism and Jewish supremacy in Israel, the distortion of the Holocaust to boost the Israeli arms industry, the weaponization of antisemitism accusations to justify Israeli violence against Palestinians, and the racist regime of Israeli apartheid. “ CONTINUED



(3). "An antisemite used to be someone who hates Jews;

nowadays an antisemite is someone Jews hate.”

- Gilad Atzmon, Jewish musician and author, 2011

Gilad Atzmon Quote: “An antisemite used to be someone who hates Jews; nowadays an antisemite is someone Jews hate.”

“An antisemite used to be someone who hates Jews; nowadays an antisemite is someone Jews hate.” — Quote by Gilad Atzmon

quotefancy.com

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Netanyahu's genocidal agenda

You mean getting rid of Hamas?

 

[Grau]

You mean getting rid of Hamas?

By now, everyone knows that Israel's Hasbara propagandists have grossly exaggerated crimes committed by Hamas. (*)

Regarding Israel's security, you're missing the elephant in the room.

Israel's right wing Zionist element helped found Hamas to "get rid of the PLO" (1) and
if or when IDF ever "gets rid of Hamas", there will simply be another, more violent and more numerous resistance movement to take its place.

What ethical Jews are calling the Gaza genocide has only served as an excellent recruiting tool for resistance to its racist and mass murdering "Settlers", "Greater Israel" expansionism and mindless destruction (2)

The unprovoked mass murder of West Bank Palestinians, theft of their land and wanton destruction are proof that Hamas is not the problem in Israel / Palestine, its a symptom or, rather product of Zionist racism, genocide and criminal expansionism by some right wing Zionist Jews.

Do you really believe that Netanyahu and his genocidal henchmen can kill their way to "Israel's security" through perpetual expansionism and internationally condemned genocide?

Please remember, there are about 2.7 Billion Muslims with long memories throughout the world and only about 15.6 Million Jews.

Ethical Jews (3) are smart enough to do the math.



(*). "Condemn first, ask questions never? Israeli propaganda and the crimes the West chooses to believe"

Condemn first, ask questions never? Israeli propaganda and the crimes the West chooses to believe : Peoples Dispatch

Since October 7, Israel has consistently made unsubstantiated claims of atrocities committed by Hamas fighters. Uncritically repeated by the White House and western media outlets, these claims have worked to manufacture consent for Israel’s ongoing genocide in Gaza.

peoplesdispatch.org

"Since October 7, Israel has consistently made unsubstantiated claims of atrocities committed by Hamas fighters. Uncritically repeated by the White House and western media outlets, these claims have worked to manufacture consent for Israel’s ongoing genocide in Gaza"

EXCERPT "Since October 7, claims made by Israel have been reproduced and published without question, the most egregiously false of which are then retracted quietly. Meanwhile, questions are raised on whether or not the Palestinian civilian casualty figures are accurate, or “Hamas-run” is added as a prefix to the Palestinian Health Ministry when talking of death tolls to somehow still raise doubts about the scale of the carnage unfolding in Gaza." CONTINUED


(1). “BLOWBACK: HOW ISRAEL WENT FROM HELPING CREATE HAMAS TO BOMBING IT”

Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It

Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.

theintercept.com

EXCERPT “ Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)

“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009.” CONTINUED


(2). "Israel Must Loudly Arrest the Murderous West Bank Settlers"

Israel Must Loudly Arrest the Settlers Who Are Killing West Bank Palestinians

Or risk losing any moral authority in this war.

slate.com

EXCERPT "Since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack, settlers there have killed more than 120 Palestinians and injured at least 2,000. They have forcibly expelled more than 800 Palestinians from their homes, blown up their generators and solar panels, and burned down tents of Bedouin herders.

Again: This has been going on not in Gaza but in the West Bank—which is governed by the Palestinian Authority, not by Hamas." CONTINUED



(3). “Jews Against Genocide statement and action”

Jews Against Genocide statement and action | IJAN

www.ijan.org

EXCERPT “We, Jews Against Genocide, came to Yad Vashem, Israel’s memorial of the genocide committed against Jews, to honor the Palestinian children who are dying in a genocide committed by Jews.

We brought dolls to symbolise the children of Gaza, and tried to bring a glimpse of the horror that Gazan’s face, to Israel’s doorstep. We hope to show Israel, and the world, the absurd reality of using the memory of one genocide to justify another.” CONTINUED

 

[Grau]

have you seen the new.old FFFFFGGrauenkirche?

Do you mean Dresden's Frauenkirche that was destroyed and rebuilt in 2005 (I think)?

No, I never made it to Dresden because Germany was still divided when I was there about 50 years ago.

Thanks,

 

[ShahdagMountains]

By now, everyone knows that Israel's Hasbara propagandists have grossly exaggerated crimes committed by Hamas. (*)

Regarding Israel's security, you're missing the elephant in the room.

Israel's right wing Zionist element helped found Hamas to "get rid of the PLO" (1) and
if or when IDF ever "gets rid of Hamas", there will simply be another, more violent and more numerous resistance movement to take its place.

What ethical Jews are calling the Gaza genocide has only served as an excellent recruiting tool for resistance to its racist and mass murdering "Settlers", "Greater Israel" expansionism and mindless destruction (2)

The unprovoked mass murder of West Bank Palestinians, theft of their land and wanton destruction are proof that Hamas is not the problem in Israel / Palestine, its a symptom or, rather product of Zionist racism, genocide and criminal expansionism by some right wing Zionist Jews.

Do you really believe that Netanyahu and his genocidal henchmen can kill their way to "Israel's security" through perpetual expansionism and internationally condemned genocide?

Please remember, there are about 2.7 Billion Muslims with long memories throughout the world and only about 15.6 Million Jews.

Ethical Jews (3) are smart enough to do the math.



(*). "Condemn first, ask questions never? Israeli propaganda and the crimes the West chooses to believe"

Condemn first, ask questions never? Israeli propaganda and the crimes the West chooses to believe : Peoples Dispatch

Since October 7, Israel has consistently made unsubstantiated claims of atrocities committed by Hamas fighters. Uncritically repeated by the White House and western media outlets, these claims have worked to manufacture consent for Israel’s ongoing genocide in Gaza.

peoplesdispatch.org

"Since October 7, Israel has consistently made unsubstantiated claims of atrocities committed by Hamas fighters. Uncritically repeated by the White House and western media outlets, these claims have worked to manufacture consent for Israel’s ongoing genocide in Gaza"

EXCERPT "Since October 7, claims made by Israel have been reproduced and published without question, the most egregiously false of which are then retracted quietly. Meanwhile, questions are raised on whether or not the Palestinian civilian casualty figures are accurate, or “Hamas-run” is added as a prefix to the Palestinian Health Ministry when talking of death tolls to somehow still raise doubts about the scale of the carnage unfolding in Gaza." CONTINUED


(1). “BLOWBACK: HOW ISRAEL WENT FROM HELPING CREATE HAMAS TO BOMBING IT”

Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It

Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.

theintercept.com

EXCERPT “ Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)

“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009.” CONTINUED


(2). "Israel Must Loudly Arrest the Murderous West Bank Settlers"

Israel Must Loudly Arrest the Settlers Who Are Killing West Bank Palestinians

Or risk losing any moral authority in this war.

slate.com

EXCERPT "Since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack, settlers there have killed more than 120 Palestinians and injured at least 2,000. They have forcibly expelled more than 800 Palestinians from their homes, blown up their generators and solar panels, and burned down tents of Bedouin herders.

Again: This has been going on not in Gaza but in the West Bank—which is governed by the Palestinian Authority, not by Hamas." CONTINUED



(3). “Jews Against Genocide statement and action”

Jews Against Genocide statement and action | IJAN

www.ijan.org

EXCERPT “We, Jews Against Genocide, came to Yad Vashem, Israel’s memorial of the genocide committed against Jews, to honor the Palestinian children who are dying in a genocide committed by Jews.

We brought dolls to symbolise the children of Gaza, and tried to bring a glimpse of the horror that Gazan’s face, to Israel’s doorstep. We hope to show Israel, and the world, the absurd reality of using the memory of one genocide to justify another.” CONTINUED

^ Waste of typing.

 

[Zebra]

if i remember correctly, the topic of this thread is Dresden 1945.

and were have we landed now?

 

[whitehall]

Of course, it must also be remembered that they were the ones that started the indiscriminate bombing of civilian centers. People tend to forget (or pretend it never happened) that Germany is the one that started the large scale bombing on civilian population centers. Oh, and of using incendiary weapons on such cities.

As the saying goes, "what goes around comes around".

A lame cliche makes it right.

 

[Mushroom]

if i remember correctly, the topic of this thread is Dresden 1945.

and were have we landed now?

For the rabid anti-Semites, everything always turns back to being the fault of the Jews.

 

[Mushroom]

A lame cliche makes it right.

Did the Germans not start the bombing of civilian population centers and firebombing?

Is not a "cliché" if it's true.

 

[Kruska]

Did the Germans not start the bombing of civilian population centers and firebombing?

Is not a "cliché" if it's true.

It is a "cliche" since the Germans never invested nor beheld a Strategic Bombing Doctrine - nor force - (it died out upon Hitler objecting to it, and Gen. Wevers death in IIRC 1936), unlike e.g. Britain. And the inventor of the Strategic Bombing Doctrine was an Italian - aka Gulio Douhet.

And it was also him who served as commander of the Aeronautical Battalion, Italy's first aviation unit (also the first to practice aerial bombardment, in Libya also against civilian targets during Italy’s war with Turkey, 1911–12). That was even before WW I.

Largely because of his efforts, the three-engine Caproni bomber was ready for use by the time Italy entered World War I.

Entente aircraft of WW I, had bombed German houses and killed civilians in the Strasbourg region - as retaliation the Germans used the Zeppelin to bomb e.g. London.

Legion Condor was under the supreme command by Franco and the Spanish Nationalists - they ordered the attack onto e.g. Guernica (wildly exaggerated reports) to support their land offensive towards Guernica, and not Legion Condor’s chief of staff, Oberstleutnant Wolfram von Richthofen.

The Luftwaffe was the first (during the Poland attack) to also intentionally bomb cities (aka, industrial and logistic targets - determined to be "legal" targets) during WW2, thus logically causing casualties amongst civilians. The final Luftwaffe air-raids onto e.g. Warsaw in 1939 beheld the exact same doctrine as the bombing raids by the British and the USAAF - flatten the cities industrial and logistical abilities (legal), and thereby kill as many civilians as possible, to demoralize the population and the respective government.

Same goes for Dresden - one can be dead sure that there where "military supporting" industries in Dresden. Even a bicycle workshop or one punching holes into leather belts for the Wehrmacht, - independent of Dresden's huge railway hub, would therefore "legalize" the bombing attack. If it was "necessary" is another topic. And again the same applies towards them nukes, tested over Japan.

 

[AZrailwhale]

It is a "cliche" since the Germans never invested nor beheld a Strategic Bombing Doctrine - nor force - (it died out upon Hitler objecting to it, and Gen. Wevers death in IIRC 1936), unlike e.g. Britain. And the inventor of the Strategic Bombing Doctrine was an Italian - aka Gulio Douhet.

And it was also him who served as commander of the Aeronautical Battalion, Italy's first aviation unit (also the first to practice aerial bombardment, in Libya also against civilian targets during Italy’s war with Turkey, 1911–12). That was even before WW I.

Largely because of his efforts, the three-engine Caproni bomber was ready for use by the time Italy entered World War I.

Entente aircraft of WW I, had bombed German houses and killed civilians in the Strasbourg region - as retaliation the Germans used the Zeppelin to bomb e.g. London.

Legion Condor was under the supreme command by Franco and the Spanish Nationalists - they ordered the attack onto e.g. Guernica (wildly exaggerated reports) to support their land offensive towards Guernica, and not Legion Condor’s chief of staff, Oberstleutnant Wolfram von Richthofen.

The Luftwaffe was the first (during the Poland attack) to also intentionally bomb cities (aka, industrial and logistic targets - determined to be "legal" targets) during WW2, thus logically causing casualties amongst civilians. The final Luftwaffe air-raids onto e.g. Warsaw in 1939 beheld the exact same doctrine as the bombing raids by the British and the USAAF - flatten the cities industrial and logistical abilities (legal), and thereby kill as many civilians as possible, to demoralize the population and the respective government.

Same goes for Dresden - one can be dead sure that there where "military supporting" industries in Dresden. Even a bicycle workshop or one punching holes into leather belts for the Wehrmacht, - independent of Dresden's huge railway hub, would therefore "legalize" the bombing attack. If it was "necessary" is another topic. And again the same applies towards them nukes, tested over Japan.

That’s an interesting piece of propaganda, but you forgot to mention that both Guernica and Warsaw had been declared open cities before being bombed. Being an open city means that it won’t be defended, Dresden was well defended by both flak and day as well as night fighters. The cases are in no way comparable.

 

[Mushroom]

That’s an interesting piece of propaganda, but you forgot to mention that both Guernica and Warsaw had been declared open cities before being bombed. Being an open city means that it won’t be defended, Dresden was well defended by both flak and day as well as night fighters. The cases are in no way comparable.

The Germans had an interesting history of both respecting and ignoring when that happened. They marched into Krakow, Paris, and Brussels without incident once those were declared open cities. However, Warsaw and Belgrade did the same thing, and both times Germany bombed and attacked it anyways.

And Japan was also known to widely ignore that. Manilla was still bombed and assaulted during the Invasion of the Philippines, and they did the same thing repeatedly in China.

I often find it dunny what parts of history some in here have to purposefully leave out in order for their claims to make any kind of sense.

 

[Kruska]

That’s an interesting piece of propaganda, but you forgot to mention that both Guernica and Warsaw had been declared open cities

So much for propaganda bull indeed - thanks

Show, proof to me that Guernica and Warsaw had been open cities in 1937 and respectively 1939.
If Warsaw had been an open city, do feel free to explain the Siege of Warsaw 1939, lasting 08-28 September.
As for Guernica:

TRUTH: After World War II the Allied prosecutors at Nuremberg were pressured to include Guernica and the Spanish Civil War among the crimes against humanity with which Italians and Germans were charged. The prosecutors rejected these arguments—and they were right to do so, because the bombing of Guernica can be justified on military grounds.

Contrary to the press reports, it was no undefended “open city.” At least two Basque battalions, the 18th Loyala Battalion and the Saseta Battalion, were stationed in Guernica. If they had had the time to fortify the city, it would have made a powerful stronghold for the Basque army against the Nationalist advance. In short, by all the rules of international warfare in 1937, Guernica was a legitimate target.

The British and Americans bombed many towns in France, Italy, and Germany for tactical reasons. The bombing and destruction of Caen and St. Lô in Normandy in 1944 were designed to assist the Allied advance. In fact, in most respects Guernica resembled a standard World War II operation. In the days before the bombing, Richthofen ordered Condor Legion fighters to strafe vehicles and other traffic on the main roads around Guernica—orders no different than those issued by Allied air commanders during the advance through France and Germany in 1944–1945.

 

[zaangalewa]

if i remember correctly, the topic of this thread is Dresden 1945.

and were have we landed now?

Not in Panama.