Does The Universe Have a Purpose?

[G.T.]

Conflating outcomes with purpose and intent is invalid without additional information. A dog's eating.... creates shit, but the PURPOSE of them eating is not to shit, its merely an abstraction of the process.

Intelligence being said to be the "purpose" of the Universe, simply because its given rise to it, is taking liberties that havent been established. Its merely a claim.

 

[harmonica]

seems very ridiculous/wasteful
god did this????!!!!!!!???
ALL of that---BILLIONS of galaxies to create life on just one planet?

How do you know it's just one planet?

o---ok
god is a smart one
except of course the human creation is a disaster

It's all part of the conflict and confusion process. The law of compensation is always at work.

....the greatest murder/rape/destruction/robbery/hate/etc [ WW2 ] and this is a ''good'' creation??
...wars since man became man
murders
etc
?
I know--I know---man has free will
--but god created man

But is it really a disaster? Or are you just focusing on the negatives?

I'm very confused--

a person of your knowledge/intelligence/etc-----posting on the lowly/RACIST [ hahaha ] /idiotic USMB?????!!!!!!!????
..you know about creation and the Universe--the most fascinating/important subjects of all time
..here ---on USMB !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Taz]

ok
so a fully formed man just appeared?
or atoms came together and a fully formed man just appeared?

No dear, couldn't you follow what I wrote?

no--I can't
it's so detailed with so many facts/etc
......it's so obvious you DO know everything.....you know the purpose of creation/how/why/etc

Wasn't I clear that I believed the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence?

That is what it did, right? Or do you want to argue that point too?

Intelligence has been created, but how do you know that that's the universe's purpose? Has god been telling jokes again?

The same way I know when the end of a movie is. It's finished.

Look if you built something you would build it in steps. The more complicated the creation the more steps and greater intelligence required. As you were building it it may not be obvious what you were creating from some of the early steps. But once it has reached it's practically complete state, you should be able to tell what it is.

So you admit that it's not complete, therefore you're not even at the end of the movie. Too bad for you.

 

[ding]

Conflating outcomes with purpose and intent is invalid without additional information. A dog's eating.... creates shit, but the PURPOSE of them eating is not to shit, its merely an abstraction of the process.

Intelligence being said to be the "purpose" of the Universe, simply because its given rise to it, is taking liberties that havent been established. Its merely a claim.

It should be obvious that the potential for intelligence to arise existed when space and time were created because the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, life will eventually emerge. In other words, life and intelligence are built into existence.

From our own experiences we can know that when we create something we do so for a purpose. The purpose of our creation can only be known once our creation has reached its practically complete state.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

So I am not conflating outcomes with purpose and intent. I am constructing a positive case by examining what was created.

 

[ding]

How do you know it's just one planet?

o---ok
god is a smart one
except of course the human creation is a disaster

It's all part of the conflict and confusion process. The law of compensation is always at work.

....the greatest murder/rape/destruction/robbery/hate/etc [ WW2 ] and this is a ''good'' creation??
...wars since man became man
murders
etc
?
I know--I know---man has free will
--but god created man

But is it really a disaster? Or are you just focusing on the negatives?

I'm very confused--

a person of your knowledge/intelligence/etc-----posting on the lowly/RACIST [ hahaha ] /idiotic USMB?????!!!!!!!????
..you know about creation and the Universe--the most fascinating/important subjects of all time
..here ---on USMB !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's nothing special about me.

 

[ding]

No dear, couldn't you follow what I wrote?

no--I can't
it's so detailed with so many facts/etc
......it's so obvious you DO know everything.....you know the purpose of creation/how/why/etc

Wasn't I clear that I believed the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence?

That is what it did, right? Or do you want to argue that point too?

Intelligence has been created, but how do you know that that's the universe's purpose? Has god been telling jokes again?

The same way I know when the end of a movie is. It's finished.

Look if you built something you would build it in steps. The more complicated the creation the more steps and greater intelligence required. As you were building it it may not be obvious what you were creating from some of the early steps. But once it has reached it's practically complete state, you should be able to tell what it is.

So you admit that it's not complete, therefore you're not even at the end of the movie. Too bad for you.

Consciousness is still evolving. How can it be complete?

 

[Taz]

no--I can't
it's so detailed with so many facts/etc
......it's so obvious you DO know everything.....you know the purpose of creation/how/why/etc

Wasn't I clear that I believed the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence?

That is what it did, right? Or do you want to argue that point too?

Intelligence has been created, but how do you know that that's the universe's purpose? Has god been telling jokes again?

The same way I know when the end of a movie is. It's finished.

Look if you built something you would build it in steps. The more complicated the creation the more steps and greater intelligence required. As you were building it it may not be obvious what you were creating from some of the early steps. But once it has reached it's practically complete state, you should be able to tell what it is.

So you admit that it's not complete, therefore you're not even at the end of the movie. Too bad for you.

Consciousness is still evolving. How can it be complete?

So you admit that you have no clue. Good for you. Keep it up.

 

[ding]

Wasn't I clear that I believed the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence?

That is what it did, right? Or do you want to argue that point too?

Intelligence has been created, but how do you know that that's the universe's purpose? Has god been telling jokes again?

The same way I know when the end of a movie is. It's finished.

Look if you built something you would build it in steps. The more complicated the creation the more steps and greater intelligence required. As you were building it it may not be obvious what you were creating from some of the early steps. But once it has reached it's practically complete state, you should be able to tell what it is.

So you admit that it's not complete, therefore you're not even at the end of the movie. Too bad for you.

Consciousness is still evolving. How can it be complete?

So you admit that you have no clue. Good for you. Keep it up.

If that is how you wish to see it, be my guest.

 

[G.T.]

Conflating outcomes with purpose and intent is invalid without additional information. A dog's eating.... creates shit, but the PURPOSE of them eating is not to shit, its merely an abstraction of the process.

Intelligence being said to be the "purpose" of the Universe, simply because its given rise to it, is taking liberties that havent been established. Its merely a claim.

It should be obvious that the potential for intelligence to arise existed when space and time were created because the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, life will eventually emerge. In other words, life and intelligence are built into existence.

From our own experiences we can know that when we create something we do so for a purpose. The purpose of our creation can only be known once our creation has reached its practically complete state.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

So I am not conflating outcomes with purpose and intent. I am constructing a positive case by examining what was created.

You cannot establish purpose or intent without establishing the motive of a creator...which is what is implied by the mere terms "purpose," and "intent."

Looking at an outcome does not give you the goal, only a guess about the goal. Thats just basic.

Thats a logical leap, its bridging the gap with bias and not concrete logic.

 

[ding]

Conflating outcomes with purpose and intent is invalid without additional information. A dog's eating.... creates shit, but the PURPOSE of them eating is not to shit, its merely an abstraction of the process.

Intelligence being said to be the "purpose" of the Universe, simply because its given rise to it, is taking liberties that havent been established. Its merely a claim.

It should be obvious that the potential for intelligence to arise existed when space and time were created because the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, life will eventually emerge. In other words, life and intelligence are built into existence.

From our own experiences we can know that when we create something we do so for a purpose. The purpose of our creation can only be known once our creation has reached its practically complete state.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

So I am not conflating outcomes with purpose and intent. I am constructing a positive case by examining what was created.

You cannot establish purpose or intent without establishing the motive of a creator...which is what is implied by the mere terms "purpose," and "intent."

Looking at an outcome does not give you the goal, only a guess about the goal. Thats just basic.

Thats a logical leap, its bridging the gap with bias and not concrete logic.

Motive? Don't know that there needs to be one other that it is the nature of intelligence to create. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

All you have to do is look back on your own experiences in creating your music. We are happiest when we create; when we use our talents. That's our nature. Isn't that enough motive?

 

[Taz]

Conflating outcomes with purpose and intent is invalid without additional information. A dog's eating.... creates shit, but the PURPOSE of them eating is not to shit, its merely an abstraction of the process.

Intelligence being said to be the "purpose" of the Universe, simply because its given rise to it, is taking liberties that havent been established. Its merely a claim.

It should be obvious that the potential for intelligence to arise existed when space and time were created because the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, life will eventually emerge. In other words, life and intelligence are built into existence.

From our own experiences we can know that when we create something we do so for a purpose. The purpose of our creation can only be known once our creation has reached its practically complete state.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

So I am not conflating outcomes with purpose and intent. I am constructing a positive case by examining what was created.

You cannot establish purpose or intent without establishing the motive of a creator...which is what is implied by the mere terms "purpose," and "intent."

Looking at an outcome does not give you the goal, only a guess about the goal. Thats just basic.

Thats a logical leap, its bridging the gap with bias and not concrete logic.

Motive? Don't know that there needs to be one other that it is the nature of intelligence to create. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

All you have to do is look back on your own experiences in creating your music. We are happiest when we create; when we use our talents. That's our nature. Isn't that enough motive?

But some music isn't very intelligent, how do you explain that?

 

[G.T.]

Conflating outcomes with purpose and intent is invalid without additional information. A dog's eating.... creates shit, but the PURPOSE of them eating is not to shit, its merely an abstraction of the process.

Intelligence being said to be the "purpose" of the Universe, simply because its given rise to it, is taking liberties that havent been established. Its merely a claim.

It should be obvious that the potential for intelligence to arise existed when space and time were created because the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, life will eventually emerge. In other words, life and intelligence are built into existence.

From our own experiences we can know that when we create something we do so for a purpose. The purpose of our creation can only be known once our creation has reached its practically complete state.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

So I am not conflating outcomes with purpose and intent. I am constructing a positive case by examining what was created.

You cannot establish purpose or intent without establishing the motive of a creator...which is what is implied by the mere terms "purpose," and "intent."

Looking at an outcome does not give you the goal, only a guess about the goal. Thats just basic.

Thats a logical leap, its bridging the gap with bias and not concrete logic.

Motive? Don't know that there needs to be one other that it is the nature of intelligence to create. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

All you have to do is look back on your own experiences in creating your music. We are happiest when we create; when we use our talents. That's our nature. Isn't that enough motive?

Now youre conflating nature with purpose.

One is the juxtaposition of something's properties, the other is its intent.

Youre saying "things work this way, therefore theyre SUPPOSED to work this way." Its not an informative view, and its also taking the logical leap of inserting an active motive (purpose) with no rational justifier.

 

[G.T.]

This is such a basic concept, its really ridiculous to have to explain it.

Maybe some basic examples.

A toilet creates noise. Is the PURPOSE of the toilet to create noise?

Thats what it creates!

Everything that exists, or was created, was not purposeful. Was not necessarily the intent.

Thats easy to figure out, and a claim that intelligence is some purpose of nature is the same thing as saying the toilet making noise was its intended purpose.

Yeah, it creates it.....is that its purpose though? Unknown, unless we are appealing to unproven conscious creator of the universe.

 

[Anathema]

This Universe is a testing ground for our Souls to prove they can live proper lives against everything this world throws at them.

 

[ding]

Conflating outcomes with purpose and intent is invalid without additional information. A dog's eating.... creates shit, but the PURPOSE of them eating is not to shit, its merely an abstraction of the process.

Intelligence being said to be the "purpose" of the Universe, simply because its given rise to it, is taking liberties that havent been established. Its merely a claim.

It should be obvious that the potential for intelligence to arise existed when space and time were created because the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, life will eventually emerge. In other words, life and intelligence are built into existence.

From our own experiences we can know that when we create something we do so for a purpose. The purpose of our creation can only be known once our creation has reached its practically complete state.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

So I am not conflating outcomes with purpose and intent. I am constructing a positive case by examining what was created.

You cannot establish purpose or intent without establishing the motive of a creator...which is what is implied by the mere terms "purpose," and "intent."

Looking at an outcome does not give you the goal, only a guess about the goal. Thats just basic.

Thats a logical leap, its bridging the gap with bias and not concrete logic.

Motive? Don't know that there needs to be one other that it is the nature of intelligence to create. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

All you have to do is look back on your own experiences in creating your music. We are happiest when we create; when we use our talents. That's our nature. Isn't that enough motive?

Now youre conflating nature with purpose.

One is the juxtaposition of something's properties, the other is its intent.

Youre saying "things work this way, therefore theyre SUPPOSED to work this way." Its not an informative view, and its also taking the logical leap of inserting an active motive (purpose) with no rational justifier.

No. I am saying that the motive is innate. Just as it is in us. I am not conflating nature with purpose. Let's look at the definitions.

purpose: the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

nature: the basic or inherent features of something, especially when seen as characteristic of it.​

The reason the universe was created was to produce intelligence. Therefore, it was the purpose God created the universe.

The motivation for God to create the universe is that it is the nature of intelligence to create. It is innate to intelligence. I other words, it is an inherent feature of intelligence.

No conflation whatsoever.

 

[ding]

This is such a basic concept, its really ridiculous to have to explain it.

Maybe some basic examples.

A toilet creates noise. Is the PURPOSE of the toilet to create noise?

Thats what it creates!

Everything that exists, or was created, was not purposeful. Was not necessarily the intent.

Thats easy to figure out, and a claim that intelligence is some purpose of nature is the same thing as saying the toilet making noise was its intended purpose.

Yeah, it creates it.....is that its purpose though? Unknown, unless we are appealing to unproven conscious creator of the universe.

Or studying what was created and using our own experiences as a proxy to inform us.

 

[G.T.]

Conflating outcomes with purpose and intent is invalid without additional information. A dog's eating.... creates shit, but the PURPOSE of them eating is not to shit, its merely an abstraction of the process.

Intelligence being said to be the "purpose" of the Universe, simply because its given rise to it, is taking liberties that havent been established. Its merely a claim.

It should be obvious that the potential for intelligence to arise existed when space and time were created because the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, life will eventually emerge. In other words, life and intelligence are built into existence.

From our own experiences we can know that when we create something we do so for a purpose. The purpose of our creation can only be known once our creation has reached its practically complete state.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

So I am not conflating outcomes with purpose and intent. I am constructing a positive case by examining what was created.

You cannot establish purpose or intent without establishing the motive of a creator...which is what is implied by the mere terms "purpose," and "intent."

Looking at an outcome does not give you the goal, only a guess about the goal. Thats just basic.

Thats a logical leap, its bridging the gap with bias and not concrete logic.

Motive? Don't know that there needs to be one other that it is the nature of intelligence to create. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

All you have to do is look back on your own experiences in creating your music. We are happiest when we create; when we use our talents. That's our nature. Isn't that enough motive?

Now youre conflating nature with purpose.

One is the juxtaposition of something's properties, the other is its intent.

Youre saying "things work this way, therefore theyre SUPPOSED to work this way." Its not an informative view, and its also taking the logical leap of inserting an active motive (purpose) with no rational justifier.

No. I am saying that the motive is innate. Just as it is in us. I am not conflating nature with purpose. Let's look at the definitions.

purpose: the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

nature: the basic or inherent features of something, especially when seen as characteristic of it.​

The reason the universe was created was to produce intelligence. Therefore, it was the purpose God created the universe.

The motivation for God to create the universe is that it is the nature of intelligence to create. It is innate to intelligence. I other words, it is an inherent feature of intelligence.

No conflation whatsoever.

How is it possible to not understand that just because something is a product of something else, that that was not the "reason it was done or created" as a matter of necessity.

You did the conflation again.

This is elementary. Youtube a video about the watchmaker. Someone already poonted you in that direction, youre committing an age old fallacy.

 

[G.T.]

This is such a basic concept, its really ridiculous to have to explain it.

Maybe some basic examples.

A toilet creates noise. Is the PURPOSE of the toilet to create noise?

Thats what it creates!

Everything that exists, or was created, was not purposeful. Was not necessarily the intent.

Thats easy to figure out, and a claim that intelligence is some purpose of nature is the same thing as saying the toilet making noise was its intended purpose.

Yeah, it creates it.....is that its purpose though? Unknown, unless we are appealing to unproven conscious creator of the universe.

Or studying what was created and using our own experiences as a proxy to inform us.

Studying isnt done by conflating hypothesis with theory.

 

[ding]

It should be obvious that the potential for intelligence to arise existed when space and time were created because the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, life will eventually emerge. In other words, life and intelligence are built into existence.

From our own experiences we can know that when we create something we do so for a purpose. The purpose of our creation can only be known once our creation has reached its practically complete state.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

So I am not conflating outcomes with purpose and intent. I am constructing a positive case by examining what was created.

You cannot establish purpose or intent without establishing the motive of a creator...which is what is implied by the mere terms "purpose," and "intent."

Looking at an outcome does not give you the goal, only a guess about the goal. Thats just basic.

Thats a logical leap, its bridging the gap with bias and not concrete logic.

Motive? Don't know that there needs to be one other that it is the nature of intelligence to create. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

All you have to do is look back on your own experiences in creating your music. We are happiest when we create; when we use our talents. That's our nature. Isn't that enough motive?

Now youre conflating nature with purpose.

One is the juxtaposition of something's properties, the other is its intent.

Youre saying "things work this way, therefore theyre SUPPOSED to work this way." Its not an informative view, and its also taking the logical leap of inserting an active motive (purpose) with no rational justifier.

No. I am saying that the motive is innate. Just as it is in us. I am not conflating nature with purpose. Let's look at the definitions.

purpose: the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

nature: the basic or inherent features of something, especially when seen as characteristic of it.​

The reason the universe was created was to produce intelligence. Therefore, it was the purpose God created the universe.

The motivation for God to create the universe is that it is the nature of intelligence to create. It is innate to intelligence. I other words, it is an inherent feature of intelligence.

No conflation whatsoever.

How is it possible to not understand that just because something is a product of something else, that that was not the "reason it was done or created."

You did the conflation again.

This is elementary. Youtube a video about the watchmaker. Someone already poonted you in that direction, youre committing an age old fallacy.

Every indication that we have tells us that we live in a universe where given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise. It does so according to the laws of nature because intelligence is written into the laws of nature. So everything that happened did so for the purpose of creating intelligence. The reason it did so was that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence. And that is how you get laws of nature which predestine intelligence to emerge. Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

 

[ding]

This is such a basic concept, its really ridiculous to have to explain it.

Maybe some basic examples.

A toilet creates noise. Is the PURPOSE of the toilet to create noise?

Thats what it creates!

Everything that exists, or was created, was not purposeful. Was not necessarily the intent.

Thats easy to figure out, and a claim that intelligence is some purpose of nature is the same thing as saying the toilet making noise was its intended purpose.

Yeah, it creates it.....is that its purpose though? Unknown, unless we are appealing to unproven conscious creator of the universe.

Or studying what was created and using our own experiences as a proxy to inform us.

Studying isnt done by conflating hypothesis with theory.

Good thing I haven't done that.