Does pork create and or save jobs?

[boedicca]

to the tune of 250,000 million(s) (250 billion) a year at this point in interest payments on our 13 trillion debt.

And that is with abnormally, and artificially low interest rates.

If we don't get spending under control, interest payments alone will likely balloon to $750B plus per year - exceeding defense spending.

 

[Wry Catcher]

It is obvious the answer is yes, but only in the short term. If the country needs long term jobs AND careers, it is up to free enterprise to produce. It is a shame the government prevents such enterprises from hiring.

The Army, Navy, Marine Corp, Air Force, and Coast Guard all provide long term jobs and careers; Primary, Secondary schools provide long term jobs and careers. Re-building a nation-wide electrical grid will provide long term jobs and careers. Local, state and federal government, special districts provide long term jobs and careers.
Of course we could eliminate all of them and have private concerns provide for our security and the education of our childen, private contractors to assure clean drinking water and the proper disposal of waste so are rivers and bays are save.
We have wonderful examples of how well private industry protects our environment and the health and safety of our people.
Remember how happy were the auto makers when they were required to add seat belts, air bags and ABS brakes? How willing industry has been to prevent discharge of solvents and chemicals into the drinking water of our citizens?

 

[boedicca]

WC appears congenitally unable to distinguish between staffing the proper role of government and wasting tons-o-money on crap.

 

[Oddball]

Demand-side economics is no less voodoo than supply-side.

And there's no more objectively quantifiable evidence to prove it works...Which is to say there's ZERO.

exactly, both are zero sum as in both cases all of the money stays in circulation. But where does it circulate? Here or abroad?

On the other hand when deficits are spent and when fractional reserve lending occurs a real and measurable stimulus does occur. Esp providing that you never repay that debt or repay it with weakened currency.

Like I said....No free lunch.

 

[sangha]

Pork at the federal level is theoretically able to increase industry through the multiplier effect. As Oddball pointed out, at the local level money for projects has to be taken first before it can be spent, and the damage done by stupid taxes and stupid spending gets taken from the multiplier before it gets added back in. So the net is a substantial loss.

Even at the federal level, the damage done through higher taxes, inflation, and the fact that people adjust spending in response to rational expectations is greater than the benefits received.

And one man's pork is another man's vital infrastructure. Reworking the I-5 217 interchange in Washington County would have been considered pork by everyone who did not have to use that area on a regular basis, but when they got done with that project it probably reduced pollution and travel time substantially.

Economic history shows that the multiplier effect of pork is sub 1.0.

Experience has proven that the fiction rate of wingnuts is 100%

 

[boedicca]

Our current GDP growth rate of 2%, and the fact that the private sector economy is not generating enough jobs to keep up with population growth.

And even that "growth" is fake, because it leaves out inflation on niggling little trifles like food and fuel.

Indeed. And the government excludes key items affected by inflation from the inflation stats.

 

[sangha]

The answer isn't even yes in the short term.

Every dollar that gubmint spends to "create jobs" --whether through taxation or inflation-- is expropriated from somewhere else in the economy, which could itself be put into productive use.

There's still no such thing as free lunch.

Not if the money is borrowed. Then there is no "expropriation"

Major fail

If it is borrowed, it has to be paid back with interest.

It still has to be taken from somewhere.

Umm, wrong again. Wingnuts don't understand finance, or the fact that money can be printed

 

[boedicca]

[

Umm, wrong again. Wingnuts don't understand finance, or the fact that money can be printed

ROFLMAO!!!!!

Then why doesn't the government just print money and given everyone ONE MILLION DOLLARS?!?!?!?!?!!!!

 

[Care4all]

I am uncertain on the reasoning for not including food in the cost of living, but it was explained to me once that oil/gas is not included in these figures BECAUSE their higher price is ALREADY reflected in the price of goods...goods automatically go up in price when gasoline/oil goes up in price....

 

[boedicca]

Which is nuts.

People purchase gasoline directly for auto fuel. Excluding it from the "basket of consumer goods" is specious.

 

[sangha]

[

Umm, wrong again. Wingnuts don't understand finance, or the fact that money can be printed

ROFLMAO!!!!!

Then why doesn't the government just print money and given everyone ONE MILLION DOLLARS?!?!?!?!?!!!!

Reductio ad absurdum is a logical fallacy, which explains why you rely on it.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

The point of her screed was not the expense. Which is always there. most business lives real close to the cost margin. The problem is people do not understand the expenses incurred.

Wages make up less than 1/3 of employee expense in most large businesses. When a worker sees the product costs a bomb and his wages are tiny, he wants to know why. Her point is that she lets the worker know what the expenses are, and it is always a surprise to them how much it costs.

There are lots of employment taxes that regular employees never see, depending on jurisdiction. In Oregon Workers comp is half paid by the employee. In many other places I understand it is entirely the bosses' responsibility. Here in Portland and in Lane County there are Mass Transit Taxes on employee wages paid by the business. In addition there is unemployment insurance In Oregon, it is 4% of wages. Big businesses usually eat the lions share of health insurance. Smaller firms usually make their employees pay more. The bank I used to work at paid 3/4 of health insurance costs. About $550 per month.

So the boss is all bend out of shape because of wage costs and the employee just sees he is getting chicken feed and is wondering why the boss is all emo about it.

 

[Care4all]

Which is nuts.

People purchase gasoline directly for auto fuel. Excluding it from the "basket of consumer goods" is specious.

yea, and people like us who have no choice but to purchase heating oil in the winter.

 

[Mr Natural]

The answer isn't even yes in the short term.

Every dollar that gubmint spends to "create jobs" --whether through taxation or inflation-- is expropriated from somewhere else in the economy, which could itself be put into productive use.

There's still no such thing as free lunch.

As an employer, at the end of the month I show every employee here a shortened monthly statement. It is without fail that each time a new person is hired they are startled in disbelief at how much money the company pays in taxes/employee payroll taxes/employee benefits etc. They never knew how much money it takes to operate a business...and indeed the "evil company" torch carriers haven't the slightest idea - they all believe that companies and company administrators have bags of money stashed all over the place.
No one ever considers replacement costs, taxes, building repairs, mechanical repairs, product development, business losses - for every $million dollar sale item - a company will have dozens of items that lost money or only made slight margins for variety of reasons. Then you have business insurance, liability insurance, fleet insurance, disability insurance, workers comp insurance, unemployment state contributions...I am just getting warmed up.
Being a business is extraordinarily expensive, especially in America.

And yet it is still extremely profitable and the tax breaks are awesome.

Allow me to shed a tear for you and your poor little me act.

I don't think there's a business owner alive that doesn't sing the blues to his employees about being on the balls of his ass.

And the sob story changes when they get together with their peers and then things couldn't be better.

 

[sangha]

The point of her screed was not the expense. Which is always there. most business lives real close to the cost margin. The problem is people do not understand the expenses incurred.

Wages make up less than 1/3 of employee expense in most large businesses. When a worker sees the product costs a bomb and his wages are tiny, he wants to know why. Her point is that she lets the worker know what the expenses are, and it is always a surprise to them how much it costs.

There are lots of employment taxes that regular employees never see, depending on jurisdiction. In Oregon Workers comp is half paid by the employee. In many other places I understand it is entirely the bosses' responsibility. Here in Portland and in Lane County there are Mass Transit Taxes on employee wages paid by the business. In addition there is unemployment insurance In Oregon, it is 4% of wages. Big businesses usually eat the lions share of health insurance. Smaller firms usually make their employees pay more. The bank I used to work at paid 3/4 of health insurance costs. About $550 per month.

So the boss is all bend out of shape because of wage costs and the employee just sees he is getting chicken feed and is wondering why the boss is all emo about it.

Umm, most workers understand about their paycheck deductions, and they know about the employers share of them. Your entire post, when not fictional (ex most big businesses don't pay the lions share of health insurance anymore) is exagerrated.

 

[Care4all]

The point of her screed was not the expense. Which is always there. most business lives real close to the cost margin. The problem is people do not understand the expenses incurred.

Wages make up less than 1/3 of employee expense in most large businesses. When a worker sees the product costs a bomb and his wages are tiny, he wants to know why. Her point is that she lets the worker know what the expenses are, and it is always a surprise to them how much it costs.

There are lots of employment taxes that regular employees never see, depending on jurisdiction. In Oregon Workers comp is half paid by the employee. In many other places I understand it is entirely the bosses' responsibility. Here in Portland and in Lane County there are Mass Transit Taxes on employee wages paid by the business. In addition there is unemployment insurance In Oregon, it is 4% of wages. Big businesses usually eat the lions share of health insurance. Smaller firms usually make their employees pay more. The bank I used to work at paid 3/4 of health insurance costs. About $550 per month.

So the boss is all bend out of shape because of wage costs and the employee just sees he is getting chicken feed and is wondering why the boss is all emo about it.

for the multi million dollar business that I ran within corporations, wages for salesmen ran around 10%, NOT 33%....our goal for selling cost, was 10%.... though I can see how wages could be much higher for a smaller business.
******
*oh crap, i misunderstood what you said.

 

[sangha]

As an employer, at the end of the month I show every employee here a shortened monthly statement. It is without fail that each time a new person is hired they are startled in disbelief at how much money the company pays in taxes/employee payroll taxes/employee benefits etc. They never knew how much money it takes to operate a business...and indeed the "evil company" torch carriers haven't the slightest idea - they all believe that companies and company administrators have bags of money stashed all over the place.
No one ever considers replacement costs, taxes, building repairs, mechanical repairs, product development, business losses - for every $million dollar sale item - a company will have dozens of items that lost money or only made slight margins for variety of reasons. Then you have business insurance, liability insurance, fleet insurance, disability insurance, workers comp insurance, unemployment state contributions...I am just getting warmed up.
Being a business is extraordinarily expensive, especially in America.

And yet it is still extremely profitable and the tax breaks are awesome.

Allow me to shed a tear for you and your poor little me act.

I don't think there's a business owner alive that doesn't sing the blues to his employees about being on the balls of his ass.

And the sob story changes when they get together with their peers and then things couldn't be better.

Funny how the govt is holding businesses back so much they're having record profits!!! Maybe, in wingnut world, the govt has held business back by allowing Wall St to give out record setting bonuses

 

[Wry Catcher]

WC appears congenitally unable to distinguish between staffing the proper role of government and wasting tons-o-money on crap.

Actually WC is not 'congenitally' so disposed. WC simply tires of reading the unproven axioms of self identifed conservatives who see the world of work in one dimension.

There is waste, I've never suggested otherwise. But suggesting, for example, money spent to build bridges and highways - which benefit commerce - is a waste (particularly when the work is generally provided by private contractors) make little sense.
Yes, bridges to no where makes no sense - though likely it did to a small community in Alaska.
Money spent in the 19th century to build public transportation systems which continue to work today made a good deal of sense.
Money spent to build and maintain Central Park, Golden Gate Park and protect Yosemite Park (and all others) makes sense to me. Some might consider such things silly, think of how many temporary jobs might have been created by the private sector building cheap apartment houses on that land.
The private sector looks to the bottom line, immediate profit is the greater good. The public sector looks - generally - to long term benefits, such as public transportion for commuters and commerce.
Consider road building during our early years. Private companies built roads to ... another private road which lead to a private barge for crossing a river to a new private road. Fees at each intersection, and no standards for safety or convenience.

 

[chanel]

Record profits? Really? Then the recession is over?

Funny how they aren't hiring people. Actually - not funny at all.

 

[Liberty]

[

Umm, wrong again. Wingnuts don't understand finance, or the fact that money can be printed

ROFLMAO!!!!!

Then why doesn't the government just print money and given everyone ONE MILLION DOLLARS?!?!?!?!?!!!!

Reductio ad absurdum is a logical fallacy, which explains why you rely on it.

your life is a fallacy.