Does God want us to judge him?

[Hollie]

Never read it. The nonsense you get from creationist ministries is rather dated.

Here you go... which site did I get this from?

Point #1: Genesis is the allegorical account of the history of the world that all people share.


The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Which site did you get that from?

Exactly. Which site? You tell me. Do you have anything which refutes what I wrote?

I never read that wall of cut and paste spam you have repeatedly dumped into various threads.

Here's the summary. It is about the G-d of Abraham. Is the G-d of Abraham a fairy tale, Hollie.

Genesis is the allegorical account of the history of the world that all people share. Chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis is the allegorical account of creation. Specifically, that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe. We need to stop reading the Bible like we think it is a fairy tale. These are allegorical accounts of history that ancient man deemed important enough to orally pass down from generation to generation for thousands of years. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. We are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning which is why some modern men view these accounts as fairy tales instead of what they really are; ancient man's allegorical account of world history.


The closest thing we can come to perceiving God is that God is consciousness without a body. A case for spirit creating the material world can be made by examining the evidence that we have at our disposal. Some of the most compelling evidence is man's belief in universal right and wrong and his unwillingness to abandon this concept even when he violates it.


Good reasons do exist for us to keep an open mind about the possibility of the creator of space and time communicating with us. We can use our own experiences as proxies to better understand what form these revelations may take. When taken in this light, ancient man's revelation that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe is not that far fetched.

I believe I already addressed the above portion of your cut and paste spam when you decided to bury my response with your miles long cut and paste wall of text.

 

[ding]

Here you go... which site did I get this from?

Point #1: Genesis is the allegorical account of the history of the world that all people share.


The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Which site did you get that from?

Exactly. Which site? You tell me. Do you have anything which refutes what I wrote?

I never read that wall of cut and paste spam you have repeatedly dumped into various threads.

Here's the summary. It is about the G-d of Abraham. Is the G-d of Abraham a fairy tale, Hollie.

Genesis is the allegorical account of the history of the world that all people share. Chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis is the allegorical account of creation. Specifically, that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe. We need to stop reading the Bible like we think it is a fairy tale. These are allegorical accounts of history that ancient man deemed important enough to orally pass down from generation to generation for thousands of years. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. We are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning which is why some modern men view these accounts as fairy tales instead of what they really are; ancient man's allegorical account of world history.


The closest thing we can come to perceiving God is that God is consciousness without a body. A case for spirit creating the material world can be made by examining the evidence that we have at our disposal. Some of the most compelling evidence is man's belief in universal right and wrong and his unwillingness to abandon this concept even when he violates it.


Good reasons do exist for us to keep an open mind about the possibility of the creator of space and time communicating with us. We can use our own experiences as proxies to better understand what form these revelations may take. When taken in this light, ancient man's revelation that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe is not that far fetched.

I believe I already addressed the above portion of your cut and paste spam when you decided to bury my response with your miles long cut and paste wall of text.

Actually you didn't. But you never honestly debate anyone, so I had no expectation this would be any different.

You are Jew who believes in the G-d of Abraham and you reap havoc on these boards against Christians. You literally target them for your hate. You practice deceit. You present yourself one way but in actuality are another way. You are a Jew pretending to be a militant atheist but only to Christians.

 

[buttercup]

They’re always looking for physical evidence for something that is spiritual.

No, most are pretty content that no such evidence does or can exist. If one asks you for it, that is merely an exercise to demonstrate that you have none. But you place your belief in something for which you have no evidence. Fine for you, go right ahead. But you are not allowed to whine when someone shoots you down, after you insist your faith based belief is true.

There’s plenty of evidence, and different types of evidence. But you know what, if you genuinely care about the truth, you will do your own search. Real truth seekers don’t demand others to do their homework for them. Jesus said “seek and you will find.” In my experience that is very true. I wasn’t even looking for God, and to my amazement I ended up becoming a believer. But I’ve also realized that one must be sincere and you need to drop the pride and stubbornness. Pride is extremely blinding when it comes to spiritual matters. Which is the biggest problem with most atheists.

 

[buttercup]

You are Jew who believes in the G-d of Abraham and you reap havoc on these boards against Christians. You literally target them for your hate. You practice deceit. You present yourself one way but in actuality are another way. You are a Jew pretending to be a militant atheist but only to Christians.

I didn’t know that Hollie comes from a Jewish background. I hope she reads this thread I posted: Jewish testimonies (I absolutely love these)

But as you all can see from the replies, some of our Jewish members here had an extremely negative reaction to that thread. And I can understand why… It’s the same reason why family members of those Messianic Jews in the videos were devastated and practically disowned them.

 

[ding]

You are Jew who believes in the G-d of Abraham and you reap havoc on these boards against Christians. You literally target them for your hate. You practice deceit. You present yourself one way but in actuality are another way. You are a Jew pretending to be a militant atheist but only to Christians.

I didn’t know that Hollie comes from a Jewish background. I hope she reads this thread I posted: Jewish testimonies (I absolutely love these)

But as you all can see from the replies, some of our Jewish members here had an extremely negative reaction to that thread. And I can understand why… It’s the same reason why family members of those Messianic Jews in the videos were devastated and practically disowned them.

She rates a ten on the crazy scale. Hobelim does the exact same thing.

 

[Meriweather]

But as you all can see from the replies, some of our Jewish members here had an extremely negative reaction to that thread.

The Jewish faith deserves to be treasured, as many Jews do. It was entrusted to them. Betraying a trust should never be taken lightly, and drawing someone away from God is rightly seen as a heart-rendering tragedy. The other side: For those who could not/cannot reach God through the Jewish faith, the Good News is that they are not forgotten and God's love extends to them as well; we are all members in the family of God. The faith we share is our greatest treasure. To see it rejected/replaced can be heartbreaking whether it is a Jew converting to Christianity--or a Christian converting to Judaism. Both situations call for us to let go and to let God. He loves us all. And only He knows how to best reach each one of His unique children.

 

[buttercup]

But as you all can see from the replies, some of our Jewish members here had an extremely negative reaction to that thread.

The Jewish faith deserves to be treasured, as many Jews do. It was entrusted to them. Betraying a trust should never be taken lightly, and drawing someone away from God is rightly seen as a heart-rendering tragedy. The other side: For those who could not/cannot reach God through the Jewish faith, the Good News is that they are not forgotten and God's love extends to them as well; we are all members in the family of God. The faith we share is our greatest treasure. To see it rejected/replaced can be heartbreaking whether it is a Jew converting to Christianity--or a Christian converting to Judaism. Both situations call for us to let go and to let God. He loves us all. And only He knows how to best reach each one of His unique children.

Drawing someone away from God???

I am very, very surprised to hear that from you. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah! When a Jewish person chooses to follow Jesus they are not turning their back on Judaism… In fact they are completing their Judaism, because you can’t get any more Jewish than following the Jewish Messiah!

I highly recommend you watch those videos because what you said is very similar to the reaction of the family members of those Messianic Jews… Their family members were horrified, devastated, at least at first. But the amazing thing is that after much prayer, many of those family members ended up coming to Yeshua as well.

Jesus was Jewish, most of the disciples were Jewish...as the videos state, the New Testament is much more Jewish than those Jews realized.

But even apart from that, I’m very surprised that you would see it in even the slightest bit negative way… Those testimonies are amazing, beautiful, powerful. And everyone must be born again. It is an undeniable biblical truth... and it is essential. So when someone comes to God it should never be a negative thing, it’s always a joyful thing!

 

[Hollie]

Which site did you get that from?

Exactly. Which site? You tell me. Do you have anything which refutes what I wrote?

I never read that wall of cut and paste spam you have repeatedly dumped into various threads.

Here's the summary. It is about the G-d of Abraham. Is the G-d of Abraham a fairy tale, Hollie.

Genesis is the allegorical account of the history of the world that all people share. Chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis is the allegorical account of creation. Specifically, that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe. We need to stop reading the Bible like we think it is a fairy tale. These are allegorical accounts of history that ancient man deemed important enough to orally pass down from generation to generation for thousands of years. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. We are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning which is why some modern men view these accounts as fairy tales instead of what they really are; ancient man's allegorical account of world history.


The closest thing we can come to perceiving God is that God is consciousness without a body. A case for spirit creating the material world can be made by examining the evidence that we have at our disposal. Some of the most compelling evidence is man's belief in universal right and wrong and his unwillingness to abandon this concept even when he violates it.


Good reasons do exist for us to keep an open mind about the possibility of the creator of space and time communicating with us. We can use our own experiences as proxies to better understand what form these revelations may take. When taken in this light, ancient man's revelation that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe is not that far fetched.

I believe I already addressed the above portion of your cut and paste spam when you decided to bury my response with your miles long cut and paste wall of text.

Actually you didn't. But you never honestly debate anyone, so I had no expectation this would be any different.

You are Jew who believes in the G-d of Abraham and you reap havoc on these boards against Christians. You literally target them for your hate. You practice deceit. You present yourself one way but in actuality are another way. You are a Jew pretending to be a militant atheist but only to Christians.

Gee whiz. You are one, angry fundie.

 

[ding]

Exactly. Which site? You tell me. Do you have anything which refutes what I wrote?

I never read that wall of cut and paste spam you have repeatedly dumped into various threads.

Here's the summary. It is about the G-d of Abraham. Is the G-d of Abraham a fairy tale, Hollie.

Genesis is the allegorical account of the history of the world that all people share. Chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis is the allegorical account of creation. Specifically, that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe. We need to stop reading the Bible like we think it is a fairy tale. These are allegorical accounts of history that ancient man deemed important enough to orally pass down from generation to generation for thousands of years. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. We are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning which is why some modern men view these accounts as fairy tales instead of what they really are; ancient man's allegorical account of world history.


The closest thing we can come to perceiving God is that God is consciousness without a body. A case for spirit creating the material world can be made by examining the evidence that we have at our disposal. Some of the most compelling evidence is man's belief in universal right and wrong and his unwillingness to abandon this concept even when he violates it.


Good reasons do exist for us to keep an open mind about the possibility of the creator of space and time communicating with us. We can use our own experiences as proxies to better understand what form these revelations may take. When taken in this light, ancient man's revelation that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe is not that far fetched.

I believe I already addressed the above portion of your cut and paste spam when you decided to bury my response with your miles long cut and paste wall of text.

Actually you didn't. But you never honestly debate anyone, so I had no expectation this would be any different.

You are Jew who believes in the G-d of Abraham and you reap havoc on these boards against Christians. You literally target them for your hate. You practice deceit. You present yourself one way but in actuality are another way. You are a Jew pretending to be a militant atheist but only to Christians.

Gee whiz. You are one, angry fundie.

Not really a fundamentalist. You are just a lying Jew. But that was redundant.

 

[Hollie]

I don’t know anyone (who understands logic) who would deny that logic is objective.

I'm not denying that. I am saying it is a manmade construct. I reject your conditional statement, "If manmade, therefore subjective". Unless you want to agree that, say, we merely discovered logic and mathematics, instead of inventing them. I'm cool with that.

But no, logic does not show us truth. Again, I can easily form a valid argument, defying no rules of logic, why unicorns simply must make ice cream in the 6th dimension.

I’m glad that at least you acknowledge that logic is objective, but you’re very wrong in claiming that it’s man-made. Objective truths are universal, they are true for everyone, everywhere, regardless of what we believe. Objective truths are not man-made...in the same way that we didn’t create the universe itself, or the physical laws of the universe, like gravity, etc. It is absurd to think otherwise.

Yes we can agree that we discover logic and mathematics, instead of inventing them. But when you say that, you seem to be contradicting yourself by also claiming it’s man-made.

And I didn’t make the claim that logic shows us truth. But logic is an example of objective universal truth, and one that clearly involves intelligence. As I said earlier, once you can admit that certain things exist universally, that are real, but immaterial… it will be easier for you to accept the existence of God. Which I know you don’t want to do, but I’m just saying…

You're making claims to "Objective truths are universal, they are true for everyone". Clearly they are not.

Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying. It doesn’t matter whether people agree or disagree. Objective truths are true for everyone, everywhere regardless of what people believe or disbelieve. For example, 2+ 2 = 4. If someone were to disagree with that, it doesn’t make that truth subjective. Objective truth is not something that we make up ourselves. I can claim I am a purple polka-dot pony, that wouldn’t make it true in reality, it would only be true in my mind. In the same way, objective truths are true in reality, regardless of our opinions or personal preferences.

I do not think there is such a thing as "Objective truths are universal". And, if you look at the history of Christianity, Judaism and Islam you will realize that neither do those religious beliefs. The deeds that they (sometimes) condemn now are the same ones that they performed in antiquity. No institution in history has changed its moral stance as much as the religious institutions. Humanistic ethics are based on compassion and reason, and are far more moral than those based on the bribery of future reward or the fear of future torture. Would you want your child to do the right thing because he knew it was the right thing to do, or because he wanted a reward and feared a punishment?

You’re entitled to believe what you want, but to deny objective truth is to deny reality. You are bringing up morality, and you seem to be saying that because in your opinion morality is subjective, that all truth is subjective. Well that is clearly wrong, we know that certain things are objectively true. As for morality, that’s a different topic, and as I told Fort, it’s one that should probably go on its own thread. Personally I believe that morality is objective, but we need to take things one step at a time here. You seem to be denying all truth, which has to be addressed first before moving on to things like morality. Correct me if I’m wrong about your position.

The problem with the theistic application of attributes to the gods is the suggestion of an "objective” or a “moral” God(s). It means nothing in human context. What does it mean? How do you define an objective or moral god(s) when you cannot be the god from the god's perspective? My complaint regarding the morality of the gods is based exclusively on the listed ethics in the various holy texts which fall far short of present day ethics man applies in modern day civilization. That is why there is such outrage against sharia in Moslem countries. It's not because they go "against the word of God" -- but because they adhere to the word of god. Why is that?

I’m sorry, but your first sentence made zero sense. Can you rephrase it? As for the second thing you said, I think for now you should set aside books like the Bible, and look at this from a purely philosophical standpoint. Do you believe that raping and murdering an innocent child for no reason is truly wrong, always...yes or no? Again, do not make the mistake of thinking that disagreement means it’s subjective. Of course there are going to be crazy or evil people out there who murder children and don’t think it’s wrong. I’m not asking you if everyone agrees on it. I am asking you if YOU think it is truly wrong, in an external way, regardless of what a crazy individual thinks or what some corrupt culture thinks.

I think we may be defining objective truths in different terms. I certainly accept that there are certain objective standards which further survival: the young must be protected, that wanton murder reduces survival potential, etc.

However, the above puts us in that Cul-De-Sac described earlier. The problem with the theistic application of attributes to the gods is the suggestion of an "objective" or a "moral" God(s). Quite clearly, the gods utterly reject the notion that the young must be protected and that wanton murder reduces survival potential.

There’s certainly every reason to question the objective truths of gods of “love and justice” who drown the world, sends plagues, brings down civilizations, allows maniacal generals to slay thousands upon his command. These gods will allow vials of death and disease and chaos and mayhem to reign supreme, and they will let you go to hell for all time for not "choosing correctly".

Well yeah, there’s a critical flaw objective truths there somewhere.

Unfortunately, the religious perspectives most of us are familiar with have been the prime antecedent of 10,000 years of odd rituals, human and animal sacrifice, deistic moral codes, cathedral building, sectarian strife, chants; Gregorian and otherwise, magic beads, smelly incense, golden icons, prayers of petition, public stoning, plastic effigies on dashboards, blind worship of an arbitrarily compiled and dubiously translated book, and lots of guys sporting big funny hats!


…speaking of god(s) and the notion of infinite justice, infinite mercy, if I was a god, (and I’m speaking of the Judeo-Christian god, although the same characteristics would apply equally to most gods) these are the things I wouldn’t do:

I wouldn't set up a test for my children that was impossible for them to pass, purposely tempt them, and when they did fail it I wouldn't curse my children, and their children, and their children and their children and...

I wouldn't drown them all.

I wouldn't be the general of some of them and order some of them to put others to the sword -- but keep the female virgins for their pleasure.

I wouldn't create a Satan and allow him any power over my children.

I wouldn't create a hell and condemn my children to it forever, even if they did call me names and spit on me and hurt me or didn't acknowledge me.

I wouldn't allow vials to be poured out carrying disease and death and destruction.

The list of things this "loving father" does is horrifying in the extreme. Some may think that bashes him, but I didn't write the book that describes him doing such things, remember?

 

[Hollie]

I never read that wall of cut and paste spam you have repeatedly dumped into various threads.

Here's the summary. It is about the G-d of Abraham. Is the G-d of Abraham a fairy tale, Hollie.

Genesis is the allegorical account of the history of the world that all people share. Chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis is the allegorical account of creation. Specifically, that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe. We need to stop reading the Bible like we think it is a fairy tale. These are allegorical accounts of history that ancient man deemed important enough to orally pass down from generation to generation for thousands of years. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. We are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning which is why some modern men view these accounts as fairy tales instead of what they really are; ancient man's allegorical account of world history.


The closest thing we can come to perceiving God is that God is consciousness without a body. A case for spirit creating the material world can be made by examining the evidence that we have at our disposal. Some of the most compelling evidence is man's belief in universal right and wrong and his unwillingness to abandon this concept even when he violates it.


Good reasons do exist for us to keep an open mind about the possibility of the creator of space and time communicating with us. We can use our own experiences as proxies to better understand what form these revelations may take. When taken in this light, ancient man's revelation that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe is not that far fetched.

I believe I already addressed the above portion of your cut and paste spam when you decided to bury my response with your miles long cut and paste wall of text.

Actually you didn't. But you never honestly debate anyone, so I had no expectation this would be any different.

You are Jew who believes in the G-d of Abraham and you reap havoc on these boards against Christians. You literally target them for your hate. You practice deceit. You present yourself one way but in actuality are another way. You are a Jew pretending to be a militant atheist but only to Christians.

Gee whiz. You are one, angry fundie.

Not really a fundamentalist. You are just a lying Jew. But that was redundant.

What a shame your religion has turned you into such a self-hater.

 

[ding]

Here's the summary. It is about the G-d of Abraham. Is the G-d of Abraham a fairy tale, Hollie.

Genesis is the allegorical account of the history of the world that all people share. Chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis is the allegorical account of creation. Specifically, that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe. We need to stop reading the Bible like we think it is a fairy tale. These are allegorical accounts of history that ancient man deemed important enough to orally pass down from generation to generation for thousands of years. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. We are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning which is why some modern men view these accounts as fairy tales instead of what they really are; ancient man's allegorical account of world history.


The closest thing we can come to perceiving God is that God is consciousness without a body. A case for spirit creating the material world can be made by examining the evidence that we have at our disposal. Some of the most compelling evidence is man's belief in universal right and wrong and his unwillingness to abandon this concept even when he violates it.


Good reasons do exist for us to keep an open mind about the possibility of the creator of space and time communicating with us. We can use our own experiences as proxies to better understand what form these revelations may take. When taken in this light, ancient man's revelation that the universe did have a beginning and that man is a product of the universe is not that far fetched.

I believe I already addressed the above portion of your cut and paste spam when you decided to bury my response with your miles long cut and paste wall of text.

Actually you didn't. But you never honestly debate anyone, so I had no expectation this would be any different.

You are Jew who believes in the G-d of Abraham and you reap havoc on these boards against Christians. You literally target them for your hate. You practice deceit. You present yourself one way but in actuality are another way. You are a Jew pretending to be a militant atheist but only to Christians.

Gee whiz. You are one, angry fundie.

Not really a fundamentalist. You are just a lying Jew. But that was redundant.

What a shame your religion has turned you into such a self-hater.

No. That was you that turned me against Israel.

 

[Hollie]

I believe I already addressed the above portion of your cut and paste spam when you decided to bury my response with your miles long cut and paste wall of text.

Actually you didn't. But you never honestly debate anyone, so I had no expectation this would be any different.

You are Jew who believes in the G-d of Abraham and you reap havoc on these boards against Christians. You literally target them for your hate. You practice deceit. You present yourself one way but in actuality are another way. You are a Jew pretending to be a militant atheist but only to Christians.

Gee whiz. You are one, angry fundie.

Not really a fundamentalist. You are just a lying Jew. But that was redundant.

What a shame your religion has turned you into such a self-hater.

No. That was you that turned me against Israel.

I was successful. I knew you were easy to manipulate.

 

[Meriweather]

Drawing someone away from God???

I am very, very surprised to hear that from you. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah! When a Jewish person chooses to follow Jesus they are not turning their back on Judaism… In fact they are completing their Judaism, because you can’t get any more Jewish than following the Jewish Messiah!

I highly recommend you watch those videos because what you said is very similar to the reaction of the family members of those Messianic Jews… Their family members were horrified, devastated, at least at first. But the amazing thing is that after much prayer, many of those family members ended up coming to Yeshua as well.

Jesus was Jewish, most of the disciples were Jewish...as the videos state, the New Testament is much more Jewish than those Jews realized.

But even apart from that, I’m very surprised that you would see it in even the slightest bit negative way… Those testimonies are amazing, beautiful, powerful. And everyone must be born again. It is an undeniable biblical truth... and it is essential. So when someone comes to God it should never be a negative thing, it’s always a joyful thing!

Yes, they are turning their backs on Judaism. I agree they are not turning their backs on God, and in fact may be drawing closer to Him, just as those who turn away from Christianity to follow Judaism may find themselves drawing closer to God. This is why it is vital at some point to "Let go and let God." Drawing closer to God, through whatever means, is never a negative thing.

What grieves me is that over time, Jews have lost sight of what a courageous man Jesus was to face up to Annis and Caiaphas and what they were doing to the poor of Israel at that time. They were indeed burdening the poor beyond endurance without lifting a finger to help them. I do not know of any Jew who points to Annis and Caiaphas as great Jewish leaders. In other words, just like Jesus, they would face down these leaders.

To understand the pain these videos bring to faithful Jews, one first has to have an in depth, heart-felt understanding of how they revere God and His commandments. Also, if you want someone to enjoy a pie as much as you do, it is not a good idea to smash that pie in his face.

As for the New Testament being "much more Jewish". As knowledgeable Jews can explain to you, there is much it has wrong about Judaism, sometimes to the point of being ignorant or even insulting. They are Christian books, with a Christian perspective on Judaism. Remember, Jesus was fighting against Annis and Caiaphas and those who supported them. These people were not a good representation of Judaism and what Jews believed which is why Jesus was at odds with them (not--as a whole--Judaism) to begin with.

 

[buttercup]

Drawing someone away from God???

I am very, very surprised to hear that from you. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah! When a Jewish person chooses to follow Jesus they are not turning their back on Judaism… In fact they are completing their Judaism, because you can’t get any more Jewish than following the Jewish Messiah!

I highly recommend you watch those videos because what you said is very similar to the reaction of the family members of those Messianic Jews… Their family members were horrified, devastated, at least at first. But the amazing thing is that after much prayer, many of those family members ended up coming to Yeshua as well.

Jesus was Jewish, most of the disciples were Jewish...as the videos state, the New Testament is much more Jewish than those Jews realized.

But even apart from that, I’m very surprised that you would see it in even the slightest bit negative way… Those testimonies are amazing, beautiful, powerful. And everyone must be born again. It is an undeniable biblical truth... and it is essential. So when someone comes to God it should never be a negative thing, it’s always a joyful thing!

Yes, they are turning their backs on Judaism. I agree they are not turning their backs on God, and in fact may be drawing closer to Him, just as those who turn away from Christianity to follow Judaism may find themselves drawing closer to God. This is why it is vital at some point to "Let go and let God." Drawing closer to God, through whatever means, is never a negative thing.

What grieves me is that over time, Jews have lost sight of what a courageous man Jesus was to face up to Annis and Caiaphas and what they were doing to the poor of Israel at that time. They were indeed burdening the poor beyond endurance without lifting a finger to help them. I do not know of any Jew who points to Annis and Caiaphas as great Jewish leaders. In other words, just like Jesus, they would face down these leaders.

To understand the pain these videos bring to faithful Jews, one first has to have an in depth, heart-felt understanding of how they revere God and His commandments. Also, if you want someone to enjoy a pie as much as you do, it is not a good idea to smash that pie in his face.

As for the New Testament being "much more Jewish". As knowledgeable Jews can explain to you, there is much it has wrong about Judaism, sometimes to the point of being ignorant or even insulting. They are Christian books, with a Christian perspective on Judaism. Remember, Jesus was fighting against Annis and Caiaphas and those who supported them. These people were not a good representation of Judaism and what Jews believed which is why Jesus was at odds with them (not--as a whole--Judaism) to begin with.

I have a very different perspective, I couldn’t disagree more with the way you completely separate Judaism and Christianity. When you say that the New Testament has “much wrong” about Judaism you are basically denying that the New Testament is God’s word. Either that or you are denying that the Old Testament is God’s word, because you seem to be claiming that the New Testament disagrees with it.

You’re basically doing the same thing the unbelieving Jews did…They couldn’t see that Jesus was actually correcting their interpretations of God’s word. They thought that he came along to completely destroy it. So of course he was the enemy in their eyes.

Please correct me if I’m wrong but reading between the lines, it almost sounds like you hold the belief that all religions lead to God. My mom is also a Catholic and that is what she believes. But that is blatantly unbiblical. Jesus Himself said “I am the Way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me.”

So there is absolutely no reason to feel that it is sad or wrong to try to reach Jews, because as the Bible states in numerous places, they rejected their own Messiah, and in this age, it is the believing “Gentiles” who have the obligation to share the Gospel. As well as the Messianic Jews, of course, and I think it’s probably more powerful coming from them, to their Jewish friends or family.

This is off-topic, so if you want to continue this discussion, maybe we can go to that other thread. But to sum this up, I just think it’s sad that you think of it as even the slightest bit negative. How can sharing the good news of the Gospel with anyone be a negative thing from the perspective of a Christian? Of course it must be done in love, respect, and in a way that is Spirit led. But if you watch those testimonies, the Christians who actually reached them shared it in that way. Just watch the testimonies, you’ll see.

ETA: I agree with the very last thing you said, the religious leaders that Jesus was at odds with were not a good representation of Judaism. We agree on that. But they were the ones teaching the Jews. And even if they weren’t in the picture, people still needed to know the truth...the people still needed to learn about the New Covenant, which was prophesied and which is summed up in Jesus.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

There’s plenty of evidence, and different types of evidence.

There is not a shred of evidence. Let me alleviate some of your confusion:

When something is evidence "only to you", that is precisely what makes that something NOT evidence.

 

[buttercup]

I don’t know anyone (who understands logic) who would deny that logic is objective.

I'm not denying that. I am saying it is a manmade construct. I reject your conditional statement, "If manmade, therefore subjective". Unless you want to agree that, say, we merely discovered logic and mathematics, instead of inventing them. I'm cool with that.

But no, logic does not show us truth. Again, I can easily form a valid argument, defying no rules of logic, why unicorns simply must make ice cream in the 6th dimension.

I’m glad that at least you acknowledge that logic is objective, but you’re very wrong in claiming that it’s man-made. Objective truths are universal, they are true for everyone, everywhere, regardless of what we believe. Objective truths are not man-made...in the same way that we didn’t create the universe itself, or the physical laws of the universe, like gravity, etc. It is absurd to think otherwise.

Yes we can agree that we discover logic and mathematics, instead of inventing them. But when you say that, you seem to be contradicting yourself by also claiming it’s man-made.

And I didn’t make the claim that logic shows us truth. But logic is an example of objective universal truth, and one that clearly involves intelligence. As I said earlier, once you can admit that certain things exist universally, that are real, but immaterial… it will be easier for you to accept the existence of God. Which I know you don’t want to do, but I’m just saying…

You're making claims to "Objective truths are universal, they are true for everyone". Clearly they are not.

Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying. It doesn’t matter whether people agree or disagree. Objective truths are true for everyone, everywhere regardless of what people believe or disbelieve. For example, 2+ 2 = 4. If someone were to disagree with that, it doesn’t make that truth subjective. Objective truth is not something that we make up ourselves. I can claim I am a purple polka-dot pony, that wouldn’t make it true in reality, it would only be true in my mind. In the same way, objective truths are true in reality, regardless of our opinions or personal preferences.

I do not think there is such a thing as "Objective truths are universal". And, if you look at the history of Christianity, Judaism and Islam you will realize that neither do those religious beliefs. The deeds that they (sometimes) condemn now are the same ones that they performed in antiquity. No institution in history has changed its moral stance as much as the religious institutions. Humanistic ethics are based on compassion and reason, and are far more moral than those based on the bribery of future reward or the fear of future torture. Would you want your child to do the right thing because he knew it was the right thing to do, or because he wanted a reward and feared a punishment?

You’re entitled to believe what you want, but to deny objective truth is to deny reality. You are bringing up morality, and you seem to be saying that because in your opinion morality is subjective, that all truth is subjective. Well that is clearly wrong, we know that certain things are objectively true. As for morality, that’s a different topic, and as I told Fort, it’s one that should probably go on its own thread. Personally I believe that morality is objective, but we need to take things one step at a time here. You seem to be denying all truth, which has to be addressed first before moving on to things like morality. Correct me if I’m wrong about your position.

The problem with the theistic application of attributes to the gods is the suggestion of an "objective” or a “moral” God(s). It means nothing in human context. What does it mean? How do you define an objective or moral god(s) when you cannot be the god from the god's perspective? My complaint regarding the morality of the gods is based exclusively on the listed ethics in the various holy texts which fall far short of present day ethics man applies in modern day civilization. That is why there is such outrage against sharia in Moslem countries. It's not because they go "against the word of God" -- but because they adhere to the word of god. Why is that?

I’m sorry, but your first sentence made zero sense. Can you rephrase it? As for the second thing you said, I think for now you should set aside books like the Bible, and look at this from a purely philosophical standpoint. Do you believe that raping and murdering an innocent child for no reason is truly wrong, always...yes or no? Again, do not make the mistake of thinking that disagreement means it’s subjective. Of course there are going to be crazy or evil people out there who murder children and don’t think it’s wrong. I’m not asking you if everyone agrees on it. I am asking you if YOU think it is truly wrong, in an external way, regardless of what a crazy individual thinks or what some corrupt culture thinks.

I think we may be defining objective truths in different terms. I certainly accept that there are certain objective standards which further survival: the young must be protected, that wanton murder reduces survival potential, etc.

However, the above puts us in that Cul-De-Sac described earlier. The problem with the theistic application of attributes to the gods is the suggestion of an "objective" or a "moral" God(s). Quite clearly, the gods utterly reject the notion that the young must be protected and that wanton murder reduces survival potential.

There’s certainly every reason to question the objective truths of gods of “love and justice” who drown the world, sends plagues, brings down civilizations, allows maniacal generals to slay thousands upon his command. These gods will allow vials of death and disease and chaos and mayhem to reign supreme, and they will let you go to hell for all time for not "choosing correctly".

Well yeah, there’s a critical flaw objective truths there somewhere.

Unfortunately, the religious perspectives most of us are familiar with have been the prime antecedent of 10,000 years of odd rituals, human and animal sacrifice, deistic moral codes, cathedral building, sectarian strife, chants; Gregorian and otherwise, magic beads, smelly incense, golden icons, prayers of petition, public stoning, plastic effigies on dashboards, blind worship of an arbitrarily compiled and dubiously translated book, and lots of guys sporting big funny hats!


…speaking of god(s) and the notion of infinite justice, infinite mercy, if I was a god, (and I’m speaking of the Judeo-Christian god, although the same characteristics would apply equally to most gods) these are the things I wouldn’t do:

I wouldn't set up a test for my children that was impossible for them to pass, purposely tempt them, and when they did fail it I wouldn't curse my children, and their children, and their children and their children and...

I wouldn't drown them all.

I wouldn't be the general of some of them and order some of them to put others to the sword -- but keep the female virgins for their pleasure.

I wouldn't create a Satan and allow him any power over my children.

I wouldn't create a hell and condemn my children to it forever, even if they did call me names and spit on me and hurt me or didn't acknowledge me.

I wouldn't allow vials to be poured out carrying disease and death and destruction.

The list of things this "loving father" does is horrifying in the extreme. Some may think that bashes him, but I didn't write the book that describes him doing such things, remember?

You brought up a lot of things here, and I don’t want to give a rushed reply, so I will try to get back to this tonight…because I have a busy day today. But thank you for going back to that post!

 

[Meriweather]

I have a very different perspective, I couldn’t disagree more with the way you completely separate Judaism and Christianity. When you say that the New Testament has “much wrong” about Judaism you are basically denying that the New Testament is God’s word. Either that or you are denying that the Old Testament is God’s word, because you seem to be claiming that the New Testament disagrees with it.

Please do not be dismayed. I may not be saying what you seem to think I am. Is the Quran the Word of God? Is the Book of Mormon the Word of God? The Christian interpretation of some Old Testament events is indeed different from Jewish interpretation. Jews see the Christian interpretation as wrong, and in fact, it is out of step with Jewish belief. So, no, I am not denying the New Testament is God's word any more than I am denying the Old Testament is God's word. Both need to be studied very carefully. In doing so, all may come to a more complete understanding of God's word--and with what Jesus was saying.

 

[Meriweather]

You’re basically doing the same thing the unbelieving Jews did…They couldn’t see that Jesus was actually correcting their interpretations of God’s word. They thought that he came along to completely destroy it. So of course he was the enemy in their eyes.

Please correct me if I’m wrong but reading between the lines, it almost sounds like you hold the belief that all religions lead to God. My mom is also a Catholic and that is what she believes. But that is blatantly unbiblical. Jesus Himself said “I am the Way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me.”

Keep in mind, many Jews did not need their interpretations corrected. Many agreed with Christ. Second, simply because we may disagree with methods, does not mean we disagree with the basics. For example, Jesus said, "I am the way..." He did not say, "Videos of Jewish conversions are the way..." Note, I pointed to Jesus, and what Jesus was saying and doing in his own time. It simply seemed to me you were pointing to what some Jews are saying and doing in our own time.

My belief is that people who sincerely reach for God, no matter what their religion, will discover God is reaching back to them. This is different from proclaiming all religions lead to God. It is the person and his faith, not the religion, that draws us to God and God to us.

 

[Meriweather]

So there is absolutely no reason to feel that it is sad or wrong to try to reach Jews, because as the Bible states in numerous places, they rejected their own Messiah, and in this age, it is the believing “Gentiles” who have the obligation to share the Gospel. As well as the Messianic Jews, of course, and I think it’s probably more powerful coming from them, to their Jewish friends or family.

Jews did not and have not rejected their own Messiah. Jews simply have a very different idea of what to look for in God's Anointed One. God did indeed anoint Jesus for a vital, everlasting purpose. His realm is the Spiritual Realm and it is not of this world. Keep in mind Jews are looking forward to a person whose will rise to a kingdom in this world. He will be human and he will be a great ruler. In his time the world will look to Jews on how worldly kingdoms should rule and work together. Jesus had zero interest in politics. Zilch.

Christians believe Jesus, a spiritual Messiah, is the only anointed one God will ever appoint. Jews believe God will appoint a great political figure for this world as well. Who is to say God won't?