Does Being A U.S. Ally Mean Anything, Georgia Triggers World To Ask?

[JimofPennsylvan]

The United States government should be doing more for the Georgian people to help protect Georgian democracy and sovereignty. America’s honor, credibility and reputation is at stake as a supporter for human rights, democracy and a new order throughout the world where the world is rid of totalitarian and the like forms of government and where peace, non-aggression, human rights and equitable distribution of wealth prevails throughout the world. Particularly, America needs to step-up here because we have called Georgia America’s ally and Georgia came to our aid when asked when America was looking for allies to build a democracy in Iraq back in 2003 when America didn’t have many true friends. It is now America’s turn to be a true friend to Georgia.

To this end, the United States government should take action to protect the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, because if the capital goes, for all practical and intensive purposes the central democratically elected government of Georgia likely goes and the sovereign country of Georgia likely goes. The U.S. government should announce a security line around the capitol (have it be like sixty miles out ) and announce that if the Russian Army passes that line it will consider it an act to destroy the sovereign government of Georgia and end the democratic and sovereign country of Georgia which the U.S. will take extreme actions to prevent. The extreme actions the U.S. should take are the following; the U.S. should begin to air drop and air lift weapon systems into Georgia to help the Georgian Army and Georgian security forces defend their country be it artillery guns, artillery shells, armed Humvees, SAM hand held missiles, hand held heavy duty rockets and the like. Moreover, the U.S. government should publicly announce that if the Russian Army crosses this Tbilisi security line, the U.S. is publicly making an indefinite commitment to provide military assistance to the Georgian people to hold on to their country and democracy and get it back from Russia if Russia prevails in its aggression and this indefinite commitment includes not only overt military assistance to Georgians but also if need be the use of the CIA to funnel weapons to the indigenous people of Georgia to help them fight for freedom and a democratic and sovereign government of Georgia.

The U.S. needs to act immediately and let Russia know this aggression against the sovereign country of Georgia will not be worth it, the long-term costs on the Russian people and the Russian government will be such this aggression will be shown to be clearly wrong and clearly foolish on the part of the Russian government.

 

[Tech_Esq]

The United States government should be doing more for the Georgian people to help protect Georgian democracy and sovereignty. America’s honor, credibility and reputation is at stake as a supporter for human rights, democracy and a new order throughout the world where the world is rid of totalitarian and the like forms of government and where peace, non-aggression, human rights and equitable distribution of wealth prevails throughout the world. Particularly, America needs to step-up here because we have called Georgia America’s ally and Georgia came to our aid when asked when America was looking for allies to build a democracy in Iraq back in 2003 when America didn’t have many true friends. It is now America’s turn to be a true friend to Georgia.

To this end, the United States government should take action to protect the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, because if the capital goes, for all practical and intensive purposes the central democratically elected government of Georgia likely goes and the sovereign country of Georgia likely goes. The U.S. government should announce a security line around the capitol (have it be like sixty miles out ) and announce that if the Russian Army passes that line it will consider it an act to destroy the sovereign government of Georgia and end the democratic and sovereign country of Georgia which the U.S. will take extreme actions to prevent. The extreme actions the U.S. should take are the following; the U.S. should begin to air drop and air lift weapon systems into Georgia to help the Georgian Army and Georgian security forces defend their country be it artillery guns, artillery shells, armed Humvees, SAM hand held missiles, hand held heavy duty rockets and the like. Moreover, the U.S. government should publicly announce that if the Russian Army crosses this Tbilisi security line, the U.S. is publicly making an indefinite commitment to provide military assistance to the Georgian people to hold on to their country and democracy and get it back from Russia if Russia prevails in its aggression and this indefinite commitment includes not only overt military assistance to Georgians but also if need be the use of the CIA to funnel weapons to the indigenous people of Georgia to help them fight for freedom and a democratic and sovereign government of Georgia.

The U.S. needs to act immediately and let Russia know this aggression against the sovereign country of Georgia will not be worth it, the long-term costs on the Russian people and the Russian government will be such this aggression will be shown to be clearly wrong and clearly foolish on the part of the Russian government.

Far be it from me to not be gung ho, but I think we don't need to escalate tensions just yet. On the other hand, this seems like a truly clever move:

In Washington, President George W. Bush said the U.S. military will lead a humanitarian aid effort to Georgia and that he expects Russia to withdraw all troops sent into the country since fighting started. The move will place U.S. and Russian warplanes, ships and soldiers in close proximity in the Black Sea country.

Combined with the EU peace plan. I'm not sure the Georgians can stand any more Russian "peace keeping" so named because dead Georgians are peaceful Georgians.

 

[editec]

Have no fear, Bush is letting France handle the negotiations.

I expect that Soviet troops to be so busy occupying Alsace Lorrain and the Sudentenland they'll have to withdrawl from Georgia altogether.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

And where does the interest come in? What's so crucial about Georgia that the US would risk War with Russia, exactly?

C'mon, man, look at history and let me know of any war pursued for 'Democracy'.

Not gonna happen.

 

[Annie]

Regarding the OP:

*Has had and not removed US forces that are 'training' with Georgian military-something so far the Russians decided was worth ignoring by making the invasion.

*The US has returned the Georgian troops from Iraq to Georgia, via American military planes.

*Agreed with sending Sarkozy to try and broker a cease-fire, when that failed:

*Already sent and landed a US Military Cargo plane in Georgia to bring 'humanitarian aid.

*Sending SOT to the Georgian capital.

Are we, the US, going to send in US troops, no. However, it appears that we have been working diplomatically, with hard and soft diplomacy to help back Georgia. That Georgia let Russia bait them into an excuse, which Russia has been trying to provoke for months, well that was Georgia's mistake.

 

[CA95380]

-snip-That Georgia let Russia bait them into an excuse, which Russia has been trying to provoke for months, well that was Georgia's mistake. -snip-

Let's just hope that neither Georgia OR Russia is using us (The U.S.) as "bait" to get involved - in something we should not have our nose into. A-G-A-I-N!!

 

[editec]

We do not currently have the troops (or the treasury) to face down the Russians on their turf.

Unless you guys are calling for a nuclear confrontation, of course.

 

[Chris]

Bush was too busy hanging out with the girls from the Olympic volleyball team to be bothered with strategery.

 

[Tech_Esq]

We do not currently have the troops (or the treasury) to face down the Russians on their turf.

Unless you guys are calling for a nuclear confrontation, of course.

True statement.

Our efforts should be limited to making it clear that the US will not long allow Georgian sovereignty to be violated without costs being imposed on the Russians.

That our demands be withdrawal of the Russian forces from all Georgian territory. That blue helmets or the like be placed in the breakaway provinces. That Russia withdraw to within its borders.

If the Russians resist, our hand is only economic and diplomatic. But, we and the Europeans hold several keys to what Russians want. Playing those cards however, may require some pain on the part of the players and it will be a test of what is more important to those countries.

I fear that failure to subject Russia to some pain for this will cost us much more later. I also fear that there is no leader currently nor on the horizon that can rally the west to stand up in any meaningful way to Czar Vladimir I.

 

[dilloduck]

True statement.

Our efforts should be limited to making it clear that the US will not long allow Georgian sovereignty to be violated without costs being imposed on the Russians.

That our demands be withdrawal of the Russian forces from all Georgian territory. That blue helmets or the like be placed in the breakaway provinces. That Russia withdraw to within its borders.

If the Russians resist, our hand is only economic and diplomatic. But, we and the Europeans hold several keys to what Russians want. Playing those cards however, may require some pain on the part of the players and it will be a test of what is more important to those countries.

I fear that failure to subject Russia to some pain for this will cost us much more later. I also fear that there is no leader currently nor on the horizon that can rally the west to stand up in any meaningful way to Czar Vladimir I.

I'm not sure it can be pulled off. If you talking about the same players I am, they HATE pain and sacrifice. Denial of the entire event works better for them. Most of the them are probably thinking "Georgia ? You mean that state where Atlanta is ? "

 

[Tech_Esq]

I'm not sure it can be pulled off. If you talking about the same players I am, they HATE pain and sacrifice. Denial of the entire event works better for them. Most of the them are probably thinking "Georgia ? You mean that state where Atlanta is ? "

I wish I didn't agree with you. Based on what I've seen and heard so far, Georgia will be lucky if it isn't permanently occupied by the Russians and its leader arrested and hauled before a "fair and impartial" Russian court to be sentenced to death for "genocide."

 

[dilloduck]

I wish I didn't agree with you. Based on what I've seen and heard so far, Georgia will be lucky if it isn't permanently occupied by the Russians and its leader arrested and hauled before a "fair and impartial" Russian court to be sentenced to death for "genocide."

I think it's a real possiblilty. I understand the Ukraine is stepping up a bit so maybe those a bit closer and a better understanding of the conflict can make Russia aware that there might be consequences of it's latest grab.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I think it's a real possiblilty. I understand the Ukraine is stepping up a bit so maybe those a bit closer and a better understanding of the conflict can make Russia aware that there might be consequences of it's latest grab.

Unfortunately for the Ukraine, they are next and they know it. The Russian Black Sea fleet is base in Sevastopol, Ukraine. There has been much talk that Russia should grab the Crimea while the grabbing is good. So, it is in Ukraine's interest to stand with Georgia. Will anyone stand with either of them is the question.

 

[editec]

True statement.

Our efforts should be limited to making it clear that the US will not long allow Georgian sovereignty to be violated without costs being imposed on the Russians.

That appears to me to be the only card we're currently holding in this hand.

That our demands be withdrawal of the Russian forces from all Georgian territory. That blue helmets or the like be placed in the breakaway provinces. That Russia withdraw to within its borders.

Sensible. I suspect that the break awy provinces DO have legitimate gripes with Georgia, after all.

If the Russians resist, our hand is only economic and diplomatic. But, we and the Europeans hold several keys to what Russians want.

I'm not sure we have any key more important to Russia than controlling the nearby nations which have oil.

Playing those cards however, may require some pain on the part of the players and it will be a test of what is more important to those countries.

What is Europe really going to do? Threaten not to buy Russias natural gas and oil?

I fear that failure to subject Russia to some pain for this will cost us much more later. I also fear that there is no leader currently nor on the horizon that can rally the west to stand up in any meaningful way to Czar Vladimir I.

What specifically will it cost the USA?

 

[Tech_Esq]

I'm not sure we have any key more important to Russia than controlling the nearby nations which have oil.

I don't think that is much of a lever against Russia. They have tons of oil anyway. No, I think the keys are more like G-8 membership. Membership in the WTO. Things of that nature that are of tremendous economic benefit to Russia. We'll have much more success using those things than anything else I can think of.

What is Europe really going to do? Threaten not to buy Russias natural gas and oil?

Two different questions, what will they do and what could they do. What will they do? Probably jack shit, run around trying to find a saber to rattle then give up when they find that it's rusted in the scabbard. They could support the sanctions above. Russia does enjoy all that hard currency from Europe and they need it. Political isolation is probably not advantageous to Russia. Where the balance point is for them, I'm not sure.

What specifically will it cost the USA?

As was pointed out by somebody clever yesterday the US is a European power. We have 70,000 troops in Europe. It is in our interest to have a secure Europe. To the extent that Russia's moves endanger that, it severely impacts our interests. Georgia is one thing, Ukraine another and the Baltic states a third. If Russia takes Ukraine, you can bet there will be a military build up by the West with troops massed in Poland. That would not be in our interest to support for another 60 years.

 

[editec]

I don't think that is much of a lever against Russia. They have tons of oil anyway. No, I think the keys are more like G-8 membership. Membership in the WTO. Things of that nature that are of tremendous economic benefit to Russia. We'll have much more success using those things than anything else I can think of.

Yes, agreed. And perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that's a hand full of nothing.

The G-8 is about money, and Russia seems to be doing okay in that department right now. Better by far than the USA I might add.

Two different questions, what will they do and what could they do. What will they do? Probably jack shit, run around trying to find a saber to rattle then give up when they find that it's rusted in the scabbard.

I concur. It doesn't help that we're mired in these Asia conflicts, does it?

They could support the sanctions above. Russia does enjoy all that hard currency from Europe and they need it. Political isolation is probably not advantageous to Russia. Where the balance point is for them, I'm not sure.

Russia is awash with hard EURO currencies because they are the number one supplier of energy to Europe.

Russian leadership is not afraid, I think, that Europe is going to vote to freeze itself to death on behalf of Georgia.

As was pointed out by somebody clever yesterday the US is a European power. We have 70,000 troops in Europe. It is in our interest to have a secure Europe. To the extent that Russia's moves endanger that, it severely impacts our interests. Georgia is one thing, Ukraine another and the Baltic states a third. If Russia takes Ukraine, you can bet there will be a military build up by the West with troops massed in Poland. That would not be in our interest to support for another 60 years.

Again, I agree. But how do we FUND this buildup, pray tell? By borrowing still more money from China?

The fallen giant that is Russia, revived by the economy of the oil, is standing up again and it appears to be interested reconsituting their former Soviet-block sphere of influence

Given that the USA is putting missle defence shields in CZ, and so forth, we have (not that it takes much mind you) reawoken the paranoia that Russia has ALWAYS had about Western Europe isolating it.

I am NOT excusing Russia. Not by a long shot.

I AM pointing out that NATOs desire to put all the former Soviet republics AND former Soviet block satillite nations into NATO probably has something to do with this hard line that Russia is now taking.

Russia has always been an imperialist power.

It was imperialistic before the communist took over, after the communists took over, and it is again, now that it is a shamocractic capitalist nation.

They want THEIR sphere of influence no less than the USA wants hers.

Disturbing thought that we might go back to something looking a hell of a lot like the cold war years.

The threat of Islamic terrorism pales in comparison, frankly.

It doesn't help much that America is broke, either, does it?

Fucking idiotic arrogance of the neo-cons is coming to bite America on the ass...again!

Those economic nitwits may have thought that a strong America didn't take a SOLVENT AMERICAN ECONOMY, but the rest of the world and ESPECIALLY AMERICA'S ENEMIES surely knew it all along.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Yes, agreed. And perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that's a hand full of nothing.

The G-8 is about money, and Russia seems to be doing okay in that department right now. Better by far than the USA I might add.



I concur. It doesn't help that we're mired in these Asia conflicts, does it?



Russia is awash with hard EURO currencies because they are the number one supplier of energy to Europe.

Russian leadership is not afraid, I think, that Europe is going to vote to freeze itself to death on behalf of Georgia.



Again, I agree. But how we we FUND this buildup, pray tell? By borrowing money from China?

The fallen giant that is Russia, revived by the economy of the oil, is standing up again and it appears to be interested reconsituting the former Soviet block sphere of influence

Given that the USA is putting missle defence shields in CZ, and so forth, we have (not that it takes much mind you) reawoken the paranoia that Russia has ALWAYS had about Western Europe isolating it.

I am NOT excusing Russia.

I AM pointing out that NATOs desire to put all the former Soviet republics AND former Soviet block satillite nations into NATO probably has something to do with this hard line that Russia is taking.

Russia has always been an imperialist power.

It was imperialistic before the communist took over, after the communists took over, and it is again, now that it is a shamocractic capitalist nation.

They want THEIR sphere of influence no less than the USA wants hers.

Disturbing thought that we might go back to something looking a hell of a lot like the cold war years.

The threat of Islamic terrorism pales in comparison, frankly.

It doesn't help much that America is broke, either does it.

Fucking idotic arrogance of the neo-cons is coming to bite America on the ass.

Those economic nitwits may not have thought that a strong America meant a SOLVENT AMERICAN ECONOMY, but the rest of the world and ESPECIALLY AMERICA'S ENEMIES surely knew it all along.

I agree with pretty much all of that. I might quibble around the edges with the impact of political isolation. It's important because Russia thinks it is, not so much standing on its own. They want it.

Nope doesn't help we're stuck fighting two wars. I'm not too sure it would make a big difference except the Russians might be more concerned we would do something militarily. I don't think we would or should though.

Funding....yeah well that's the question isn't it? But, security isn't an option. It's a necessity. Nothing else makes much of a difference if your country now belongs to Russia. Not something we would face, but we've not backed down from a European war in the last hundred years, little chance we would stand idly by now.

I agree with the rest of what you say. I would say about the neo-cons that they were idealistic with the typical results of following idealistic foreign policy.

I've always been more of a Morganthauian "Real Politik" guy myself. And, a fiscal conservative so you can see I've had an unhappy 8 years myself with only occasional and probably coincidental over-lapping of policy choices.

 

[editec]

I agree with pretty much all of that. I might quibble around the edges with the impact of political isolation. It's important because Russia thinks it is, not so much standing on its own. They want it.

Perception is reality in international politiK

Nope doesn't help we're stuck fighting two wars. I'm not too sure it would make a big difference except the Russians might be more concerned we would do something militarily. I don't think we would or should though.

Agreed. The Russians would have done this anyway. But knowing that America is a paper tiger doesn't give the rest of the world much confidence that they can stand up to Russia, and THAT is important.

Funding....yeah well that's the question isn't it? But, security isn't an option. It's a necessity. Nothing else makes much of a difference if your country now belongs to Russia. Not something we would face, but we've not backed down from a European war in the last hundred years, little chance we would stand idly by now.

No doubt. Still...how do we fund a military build up again now that we've made our nation insolvent? Saying you need something doesn't mean you can have it.

I agree with the rest of what you say. I would say about the neo-cons that they were idealistic with the typical results of following idealistic foreign policy.

Idealistic? You are kinder in your acessment of their motives than I, chum.

I think they knew perfectly well the outcome of these policies in trade and taxation and government spending.

I think they have set out to bankrupt this nation...STAVE THE BEAST they said, and that is what they have done.

I've always been more of a Morganthauian "Real Politik" guy myself.

As am I. I am a nationalist.

And, a fiscal conservative so you can see I've had an unhappy 8 years myself with only occasional and probably coincidental over-lapping of policy choices.

Everyone is a fiscal consevative...even most liberals.

The argument is always about what and how we invest money.

The only truly nonfiscal consvatives are those people who claim the loudest that they are...the neo-cons who devised the voodoo economic system which claimed that:

1. decreasing taxes without decreasing spending was a good idea

2. Shipping idustry offshore is GOOD for America

3. The working and middle classes are too fat and happy and must be punished for demanding their share of the American pie.

These fucking people should be stung up, TechEsq.

Instead they've convince "fiscal conservatives" that their interests are in saving the nation from liberalism.

Hell man American liberalism made America the weathiest and most powerful nation on earth.

Neo-conservatism has made us the world largest debtor nation and is breaking the back of geese who laid the golden eggs (the American working class...which includes lawyers, BTW)

Connect the dots for crimminy's sakes.

 

[Avatar4321]

I think it's a real possiblilty. I understand the Ukraine is stepping up a bit so maybe those a bit closer and a better understanding of the conflict can make Russia aware that there might be consequences of it's latest grab.

Yeah, or the Russians might use the Ukrainian response as justification to invade them as well.

 

[dilloduck]

Yeah, or the Russians might use the Ukrainian response as justification to invade them as well.

and the next neighbor --and the next neighbor ?