Dobbs & Bruen – the crudeness of the decisions is its own message

[Care4all]

Can you please explain what you're saying here?

Also, didn't Casey address this?

 

[Care4all]

No, because educated people understood that "people" meant THE PEOPLE, not the government. The government has armies. Thus it is absolutely ridiculous to assume that a Right for the government to have guns, buried within a group of INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS.

Only a progressive could come up with such an asinine claim.

The people,

All able White men from 17 to 45 were under a State govt draft, and required under the law to buy and own a gun, and know how to use it, for when and if the State govt called you up and drafted you in to their Militia.

Able men were required to have a gun, for the collective self defense of the State, when and if a Militia was needed, and they were drafted by the State.


Originalism.

The 2nd amendment was never about an individual's right to own a gun for his own self defense, it was about the Militia, and able men being prepared to serve with their own arms, when drafted.

We didn't have a standing army, it was unconstitutional. When necessary, for our defense, State Militias were called upon.

 

[Care4all]

Your perspective is flawed. The individual right was practiced daily, there was no need to presume otherwise.

The law of the land never once questioned the individual right to keep and bear arms. Citizens have been hunting that whole time, how would you reconcile that? Individuals could and did purchase firearms that whole time. You are simply mistaken.

The constitution never said it though. Just like with a right to privacy.

Abortion was legal for women at the time of the founding fathers.... Women drank concoctions in early pregnancy, to end their pregnancies..... We had an unspoken, and unwritten, right to privacy.

There was no law against it until decades and decades later...when religious groups got involved, pushing to make it illegal, among other things made illegal, like sodomy, and rubbers, and any contraception....and adultery and mixed marriages.....and divorce. All made illegal, unconstitutionally.

 

[Godboy]

A right to bodily autonomy would seem too obvious to be required in writing as well.

Youre delusional if you think the founding fathers would have supported abortion.

 

[Godboy]

The people,

All able White men from 17 to 45 were under a State govt draft, and required under the law to buy and own a gun, and know how to use it, for when and if the State govt called you up and drafted you in to their Militia.

Able men were required to have a gun, for the collective self defense of the State, when and if a Militia was needed, and they were drafted by the State.


Originalism.

The 2nd amendment was never about an individual's right to own a gun for his own self defense, it was about the Militia, and able men being prepared to serve with their own arms, when drafted.

We didn't have a standing army, it was unconstitutional. When necessary, for our defense, State Militias were called upon.

Then why didnt they clarify this on day 2 after the Constitution was written? Everyone was still walking around with guns and no one said a god damn word? They made no attempts to clarify this incredible miscommunication?

 

[j-mac]

The two cases are a clear indication of the blatant hypocrisy of the right and the inconsistent application of the law and advocacy of “states’ rights’ by conservatives.

The Constitution isn’t a cafeteria plan – one cannot support the rights he approves of and reject the rights he does not like.

If the states have the right to ‘ban’ abortion, then they likewise have the right to regulate firearms as they see fit.

Conservatives can’t have it both ways.

Do you even know what SCOTUSs purpose is?

 

[j-mac]

Then why didnt they clarify this on day 2 after the Constitution was written? Everyone was still walking around with guns and no one said a god damn word? They made no attempts to clarify this incredible miscommunication?

They left the remedy…why hasn’t the baby killing left pursued an amendment?

 

[Coyote]

Then why didnt they clarify this on day 2 after the Constitution was written? Everyone was still walking around with guns and no one said a god damn word? They made no attempts to clarify this incredible miscommunication?

Why clarify the obvious?

 

[pknopp]

Youre delusional if you think the founding fathers would have supported abortion.

Abortion was frequently practiced in North America during the period from 1600 to 1900. Many tribal societies knew how to induce abortions. They used a variety of methods including the use of black root and cedar root as abortifacient agents. During the colonial period, the legality of abortion varied from colony to colony and reflected the attitude of the European country which controlled the specific colony. In the British colonies abortions were legal if they were performed prior to quickening. In the French colonies abortions were frequently performed despite the fact that they were considered to be illegal. In the Spanish and Portuguese colonies abortion was illegal. From 1776 until the mid-1800s abortion was viewed as socially unacceptable; however, abortions were not illegal in most states. During the 1860s a number of states passed anti-abortion laws. Most of these laws were ambiguous and difficult to enforce. After 1860 stronger anti-abortion laws were passed and these laws were more vigorously enforced. As a result, many women began to utilize illegal underground abortion services. Although abortion was legalized in 1970, many women are still forced to obtain illegal abortion or to perform self-abortions due to the economic constraints imposed by the Hyde Amendment and the unavailability of services in many areas. Throughout the colonial period and during the early years of the republic, the abortion situation for slave women was different than for other women. Slaves were subject to the rules of their owners, and the owners refused to allow their slaves to terminate pregnancies. The owners wanted their slaves to produce as many children as possible since these children belonged to the slave owners. This situation persisted until the end of the slavery era.

Abortion in early America - PubMed

 

[Godboy]

Why clarify the obvious?

EXACTLY! The 2nd amendment was obvious so they required no clarification when people were still carrying guns. Its exactly what they expected.

 

[Godboy]

Abortion was frequently practiced in North America during the period from 1600 to 1900. Many tribal societies knew how to induce abortions. They used a variety of methods including the use of black root and cedar root as abortifacient agents. During the colonial period, the legality of abortion varied from colony to colony and reflected the attitude of the European country which controlled the specific colony. In the British colonies abortions were legal if they were performed prior to quickening. In the French colonies abortions were frequently performed despite the fact that they were considered to be illegal. In the Spanish and Portuguese colonies abortion was illegal. From 1776 until the mid-1800s abortion was viewed as socially unacceptable; however, abortions were not illegal in most states. During the 1860s a number of states passed anti-abortion laws. Most of these laws were ambiguous and difficult to enforce. After 1860 stronger anti-abortion laws were passed and these laws were more vigorously enforced. As a result, many women began to utilize illegal underground abortion services. Although abortion was legalized in 1970, many women are still forced to obtain illegal abortion or to perform self-abortions due to the economic constraints imposed by the Hyde Amendment and the unavailability of services in many areas. Throughout the colonial period and during the early years of the republic, the abortion situation for slave women was different than for other women. Slaves were subject to the rules of their owners, and the owners refused to allow their slaves to terminate pregnancies. The owners wanted their slaves to produce as many children as possible since these children belonged to the slave owners. This situation persisted until the end of the slavery era.

Abortion in early America - PubMed

Not a word of that refutes my statement.

 

[Coyote]

EXACTLY! The 2nd amendment was obvious so they required no clarification when people were still carrying guns. Its exactly what they expected.

A well regulated militia.

 

[pknopp]

Not a word of that refutes my statement.

We had abortion in the time of the founders. They did not find it necessary to create any laws so...............


They could have written it into the Constitution.

 

[Coyote]

SCOTUS has reversed itself over 300 times. Or were you unaware of that?

And it will again. But it has never taken away a right before.

 

[Flash]

 

[Care4all]

Then why didnt they clarify this on day 2 after the Constitution was written? Everyone was still walking around with guns and no one said a god damn word? They made no attempts to clarify this incredible miscommunication?

Why should they have, everyone knew what the 2nd Amendment meant at the time, no clarity needed.

So did the Supreme court know what it meant, for 200 plus years of rulings by them....until Scalia's infamous ruling....

 

[Flash]

Youre delusional if you think the founding fathers would have supported abortion.

They were mostly Libertarians.

Nowadays Libertarians have mixed views about abortion. Some say "my body, my choice". Others say the right of the child to live is greater than the right of the mother to be inconvenienced with the child.

Very little is in the historical record about their views on abortion. Since in those days a lot of children died at an early age they probably looked at each birth as a good thing and would have opposed wantonly killing a child. Also, most of them were devout Christians.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

It doesn't have to say either individual or self defense because the terms "the right of the people to keep & bear arms" covers that whole topic.
The people are made up of individuals & keeping/bearing arms isn't restricted to self defense

It’s not difficult to understand: conservatives are hypocrites – they’re inconsistent and dishonest in their ‘advocacy’ of “states’ rights.”

If states have the right to regulate abortion as they see fit, then states should have the right to regulate firearms as they see fit.

The right to privacy is no more a ‘made up’ right than the individual right to possess a firearm.

Overturning New York’s may issue provision of its firearm law is the conduct of an activist court – of tyrants in black robes legislating from the bench contrary to the will of the people of the State of New York.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

But they'll try

Again..."self defense" is nowhere mentioned in the 2A

True.

Nowhere in the Second Amendment will one find the words ‘individual’ or ‘self-defense’ – but they’re there because the Supreme Court says that they’re there – just as the right to privacy is in the Constitution, because the Supreme Court says it is there.

Again, conservatives can’t have it both ways.

 

[Lesh]

We can argue back and forth forever but the fact is… a Court with a different make up could easily rule that abortion is legal and that the 2A does not afford protection for gun ownership outside their use in a well regulated militia

That has now been made obvious by this court


And changing the make up of the Court is what we need to do