Do you stand with Israel or Palestine?

[P F Tinmore]

For example, all Palestinians are civilians.

You would probably also think that Osama Bin Ladin was a non-combatent "civilian!

I am soooo glad that the Leaders of the GREAT USA do NOT think like you!!!!

Israel plays the terrorist card when unprotected settlers are attacked. Israel even plays the terrorist card when soldiers are attacked. It is just part of their propaganda.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Got links?

I was in Israel when a Holiday Resort in Egypt that Jews Frequented was Bombed by Palestinians. Another time, I as in Israel when a bus was bombed by Palestinians near a farm outside of Tel Aviv. Attached is a list of such TERROR Attacks (It is not up-to-date...it ends in 2005). It does not include 1000s of random Hamas Terror bombings.

Major Palestinian Terror Attacks Since Oslo

Children killed
TOTALS SINCE SEPT 2000
Israelis: 124
Palestinians: 1463

Remember These Children

 

[alexa]

Indeed, reconciliation is not a real possibility. What is needed is for the Palestinian Arabs to overthrow both of these brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments and replace them with new government that is concerned with the present needs of the people living there rather than sacrificing their present welfare in order to pursue ancient ideological goals. When that happens, the aspirations of the Palestinian Arabs for a viable state with a viable economy will be possible because such a government would be able to provide reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns. Until this happens, imo, no real progress will be made.

Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes every day to make room for Israeli settlements.

It is a "present need" to stop that.

I'm sure you know that's not true. Demolitions of Jewish and Arab buildings that don't have the proper permits go on all the time, and all of this takes place in Area C which by agreement with the PA is under Israeli civil and security control, but none of the demolitions of Palestinian Arab buildings are for the purpose of building new settlements.

I think you should read this report to get some idea of what is going on


Separate and Unequal | Human Rights Watch

You should also visit this site for information on the situation.

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions

 

[alexa]

Indeed, reconciliation is not a real possibility. What is needed is for the Palestinian Arabs to overthrow both of these brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments and replace them with new government that is concerned with the present needs of the people living there rather than sacrificing their present welfare in order to pursue ancient ideological goals. When that happens, the aspirations of the Palestinian Arabs for a viable state with a viable economy will be possible because such a government would be able to provide reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns. Until this happens, imo, no real progress will be made.

Ah you've missed that. That is what they are already interested in. I believe the Palestinian situation will resolve itself once it has it's recognised State and uses the law. I don't really think it can be avoided. The die has been cast.

Israel is one of the strongest military powers in the world. That you believe does not make her safe.

I have found this interesting article which I think captures my criticism of Israel and where Israel needs to move.

Israel is still traumatised. She still lives like a nightmare in the past. It is like the holocaust is still there, waiting to happen again. Indeed on another forum I have often heard people say such, that they believe that is what others still want. Israel is still living in survival mode and survival mode is not a good place to live. It takes all your energy and makes you unable to focus on other important dimensions.

Here the author, Tal Becker describes this. His belief is that Israel has got stuck in the original Political Zionism mode of trying to find safety and that this itself stifles Israel. Anyone who does not agree is seen as the enemy or antisemetic - you know it all. However he, rightly believes that this has caused stagnation. Israel needs he rightly says to move on from viewing things simply on terms of survival but rather on values.

Here is some of what he says

A values-based conversation about Israel differs from the crisis narrative in four important ways. First, it is internally motivated, not externally driven. In a values conversation, it does not matter whether Israel is being criticized or applauded. We are not concerned with what it will take to repel a threat or answer a critic. We are engaged in what it will take to address Israel's challenges and build a society that reflects the values, tradition and experience of our people. It is a conversation about us.

Those engaged in a values conversation measure success not by whether we can persuade the world about the justice of our cause, but by whether we are comfortable with the moral dimensions of our policies. In a crisis-driven narrative, the issue of minorities in Israel, to take one example, is unlikely to be addressed unless it is seen as a threat to Israel's survival or a propaganda weapon for Israel's opponents. In a values-based conversation the way a Jewish society relates to its minorities exists as an independent question that deserves our attention, regardless of whether it receives the attention of others.

-snip- If, for example, the conversation about Israel's response to the Turkish flotilla incident had been more values sensitive, the first question would be what moral issues are at play here. Rather than center the debate on the military and public relations implications of interdiction on the high seas, we would first identify the moral tension between our humanitarian responsibilities to others, and our security responsibilities to ourselves. We would examine, and argue about, how these moral responsibilities could best be met in the circumstances. And because this tension provides no easy answer, we may recognize that the Jew who questions the propriety of Israel's forceful response in this case is not engaged in an act of betrayal, any more than the Jew who supports it is engaged in act of moral bankruptcy. If both are genuinely trying to strike an appropriate balance between legitimate ethical objectives, they are both fulfilling the same responsibility to meet this challenge with a Jewish moral response.

Beyond Survival

I think he has hit the nail on the head on where Israel, for her own good, needs to change.

Not that this is responsive to my post, but Israel is not so much traumatized by the Holocaust as the many suicide bombers who blew up Israelis while they were eating or praying, not because of anything they had done but simply because they were Jewish, before the West Bank fence was built and the years of daily bombings of Israeli communities from Gaza. While it is true that the Palestinian Arabs cannot defeat Israel, they can traumatize and kill Israeli civilians if Israel does not remain vigilant and maintain strong security measures to protect them until such time that the Palestinian Arabs throw out the brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments they now have in both Gaza and the West Bank and install a government that will place the people above ideology so that it can give reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns.

You may wish to believe that the Palestinian Arabs will reform their government if they first get a state of their own, but you have no basis in fact or logic for believing it.

He looked at the situation from a psychological perspective. If Israel does not have the values of freedom of speech and social justice then Israel for those reasons alone will be rejected by countries which value those values. He has pinpointed an extremely important point and presented it is a psychological way.

From another viewpoint it could be pointed out that it has nothing to do with security. It is to do with other things, not least a fanatical national religious desire for land.

Security is a red herring. What security is given to the Palestinians? The IDF invariability stands by while settlers attack Palestinians or destroy their property.

Time is running out for Israel. Palestine will become a state and unless Israel starts to agree to the rule of law, she is going to find herself isolated in the world.

All of what Israel does is going to become more common knowledge. I gave you the opportunity to look at this continuous emphasis on 'security' from a psychological perspective, which is one perspective. Whatever the reason for lack of discussion, values do need to be addressed in Israel. He believes it is because Israel lives in a culture of trauma, that the collective psyche is always looking out for self preservation. It could actually be argued that robust discussion of values is one of the things which may ensure Israeli's safety. His point is too good for you to dismiss without, I suspect, even reading.

 

[alexa]

They were attacked because they are settlers occupying Palestinian land.

Their religion is irrelevant.

NOT TRUE!!!

When tracking the locations of frequent Palestinian Terrorist attacks, it becomes very obvious that they target any location where they can shed innocent Jewish blood. The Terrorists overwhelmingly prefer to attack Jewish schools, residential areas, and other popular gathering places. They even attack Jews outside of Israel. Also, the Palestinian Terrorists NEVER attempt to offer warnings to help protect women and young children. Basically, they want Jews dead. When I was in the West Bank, there were palestinians wearing headbands that said..."Kill Jews". Hatred of Jews is 100% relevant! They just can't stand the idea of a Middle East that is not TOTALLY controlled by Muslims.

I agree many hate Israelis, but put yourself in their situation and what would you feel. In Gaza the only experience most of the population have of Israelis is them as settlers, as the IDF protecting these settlements and as the IDF attacking and killing them. In such a situation it is hardly surprising they do not like them. Machiavelli suggested a ruler get the people to fear them but not to get them to hate them as that made them dangerous.

That being said, I was watching a documentary on the kids of Gaza a year or so ago. The kids said they did not understand why the Israelis hated them so much and wanted to kill them and they certainly wanted to grow up and get revenge for the death of their loved ones....but invariably the children said that they did not hate Jewish children, that they were not to blame...so I think the indoctrination is not as great as we generally hear and that a door has been left in their psyche for reconciliation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I'm sure you know that's not true. Demolitions of Jewish and Arab buildings that don't have the proper permits go on all the time, and all of this takes place in Area C which by agreement with the PA is under Israeli civil and security control, but none of the demolitions of Palestinian Arab buildings are for the purpose of building new settlements.

don't have the proper permits

Bullshit excuse.

Why do the Palestinians have to apply to foreigners to get permits to build on their own land? I don't need to go to Canada to get a permit to build in Ohio.

By agreement with the PA, Israel has civil and security control over Area C, where all the demolitions have taken place, and Israel has the same process for issuing permits in Area C for Israelis and Palestinian Arabs alike that it uses inside of Israel.

That was an Oslo thing.

Oslo is dead.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes every day to make room for Israeli settlements.

It is a "present need" to stop that.

I'm sure you know that's not true. Demolitions of Jewish and Arab buildings that don't have the proper permits go on all the time, and all of this takes place in Area C which by agreement with the PA is under Israeli civil and security control, but none of the demolitions of Palestinian Arab buildings are for the purpose of building new settlements.

I think you should read this report to get some idea of what is going on


Separate and Unequal | Human Rights Watch

You should also visit this site for information on the situation.

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions

What is going on is that in Area C Israel applies the same rules for building permits as it does west of the green line and it applies them equally with Jews and Palestinian Arabs. Israel presently performs no demolitions in Areas A or B, which are by agreement with the PA under PA civil control. Better than 90% of the Palestinian Arabs live in Areas A and B and only a relatively few live in Area C.

Organizations like Human Rights Watch are propaganda mills that are constantly contradicting themselves in their lust to attack Israel. HRW at once calls Israel the occupying power in the territories and claims Israel has no right to regulate the Palestinian Arabs living there, but the Geneva Conventions charge that an occupying power not only has the right to regulate civil behavior but has a duty to do so. The UNSC recognized Israel as the occupying power after the 1967 and charged it with providing civil administration and well as economic sustenance to the population there, all in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. Not only does Israel have the right to regulate building in Area C, but it would be a violation of its responsibilities under the Geneva Conventions not to do so.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Bullshit excuse.

Why do the Palestinians have to apply to foreigners to get permits to build on their own land? I don't need to go to Canada to get a permit to build in Ohio.

By agreement with the PA, Israel has civil and security control over Area C, where all the demolitions have taken place, and Israel has the same process for issuing permits in Area C for Israelis and Palestinian Arabs alike that it uses inside of Israel.

That was an Oslo thing.

Oslo is dead.

In your opinion, perhaps, but both the PA and Israel are still committed to abiding by those agreements.

 

[P F Tinmore]

By agreement with the PA, Israel has civil and security control over Area C, where all the demolitions have taken place, and Israel has the same process for issuing permits in Area C for Israelis and Palestinian Arabs alike that it uses inside of Israel.

That was an Oslo thing.

Oslo is dead.

In your opinion, perhaps, but both the PA and Israel are still committed to abiding by those agreements.

Both sides have always pointed to it for their own benefit and kicked it to the curb when it was not. It was a shit agreement to begin with and neither side wants to take it seriously.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Ah you've missed that. That is what they are already interested in. I believe the Palestinian situation will resolve itself once it has it's recognised State and uses the law. I don't really think it can be avoided. The die has been cast.

Israel is one of the strongest military powers in the world. That you believe does not make her safe.

I have found this interesting article which I think captures my criticism of Israel and where Israel needs to move.

Israel is still traumatised. She still lives like a nightmare in the past. It is like the holocaust is still there, waiting to happen again. Indeed on another forum I have often heard people say such, that they believe that is what others still want. Israel is still living in survival mode and survival mode is not a good place to live. It takes all your energy and makes you unable to focus on other important dimensions.

Here the author, Tal Becker describes this. His belief is that Israel has got stuck in the original Political Zionism mode of trying to find safety and that this itself stifles Israel. Anyone who does not agree is seen as the enemy or antisemetic - you know it all. However he, rightly believes that this has caused stagnation. Israel needs he rightly says to move on from viewing things simply on terms of survival but rather on values.

Here is some of what he says



Beyond Survival

I think he has hit the nail on the head on where Israel, for her own good, needs to change.

Not that this is responsive to my post, but Israel is not so much traumatized by the Holocaust as the many suicide bombers who blew up Israelis while they were eating or praying, not because of anything they had done but simply because they were Jewish, before the West Bank fence was built and the years of daily bombings of Israeli communities from Gaza. While it is true that the Palestinian Arabs cannot defeat Israel, they can traumatize and kill Israeli civilians if Israel does not remain vigilant and maintain strong security measures to protect them until such time that the Palestinian Arabs throw out the brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments they now have in both Gaza and the West Bank and install a government that will place the people above ideology so that it can give reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns.

You may wish to believe that the Palestinian Arabs will reform their government if they first get a state of their own, but you have no basis in fact or logic for believing it.

He looked at the situation from a psychological perspective. If Israel does not have the values of freedom of speech and social justice then Israel for those reasons alone will be rejected by countries which value those values. He has pinpointed an extremely important point and presented it is a psychological way.

From another viewpoint it could be pointed out that it has nothing to do with security. It is to do with other things, not least a fanatical national religious desire for land.

Security is a red herring. What security is given to the Palestinians? The IDF invariability stands by while settlers attack Palestinians or destroy their property.

Time is running out for Israel. Palestine will become a state and unless Israel starts to agree to the rule of law, she is going to find herself isolated in the world.

All of what Israel does is going to become more common knowledge. I gave you the opportunity to look at this continuous emphasis on 'security' from a psychological perspective, which is one perspective. Whatever the reason for lack of discussion, values do need to be addressed in Israel. He believes it is because Israel lives in a culture of trauma, that the collective psyche is always looking out for self preservation. It could actually be argued that robust discussion of values is one of the things which may ensure Israeli's safety. His point is too good for you to dismiss without, I suspect, even reading.

Bombs exploding at Passover Seders or in restaurants or in buses are not psychological events; that's real blood splattered everywhere and those are real body parts being scraped off the walls. The suicide bombings were ended by reoccupying the West Bank and by building the security fence, not by talking to psychologists. Perhaps this sent a lot of frustrated wannabe suicide bombers in search of psychological help to sort out their feelings and values with respect to not being able to kill Jews, but it provided their prospective victims with a sense of calm and relief greater than any psychological guru ever could.

As for freedom and social justice in Israel, it meets or exceeds the standards of the other great democracies and is beyond the wildest imaginings of most of the Arabs in the region, Which is why you see dissidents like Zoabi daily excoriate the Jews - whom she calls Israelis while calling Arab Israelis Palestinians - the government from the top level right down to the cop on the beat, as well as her fellow legislators while consorting with Israel's sworn enemies and she still not only goes free but continues to serve in the Knesset.

To you a concern about Jews being blown up while eating or praying just because they are Jews may seem a red herring, but to Israeli Jews the memory of the Arab depredations during the second intifada is still fresh, and security is their prime concern not because of the Holocaust but because they saw a few years ago that only the strongest security measures were able to keep them safe from Palestinian Arab terrorists.

You may, in desperation, wish to think time is running out for Israel, but in fact, or that Israel will become isolated, but nothing could be further from the truth. Popular support for Israel in the US is overwhelming and recent polls show it is still growing. Israel has excellent relations with nearly all European countries from the Atlantic right to the doorstep of Russia as well as with China and India and many African and Asian and South American nations. Sympathy for the image of the suffering Palestinian Arab that activists have projected around the world has not resulted in any kind of hardship for Israel.

Btw, not that it's really relevant, but Becker is a lawyer, not a psychologist.

 

[toomuchtime_]

That was an Oslo thing.

Oslo is dead.

In your opinion, perhaps, but both the PA and Israel are still committed to abiding by those agreements.

Both sides have always pointed to it for their own benefit and kicked it to the curb when it was not. It was a shit agreement to begin with and neither side wants to take it seriously.

Actually, both sides take it seriously, as does most of the rest of the world, most notably the donor nations that pay for the civil administrations in both Gaza and the West Bank, however, it is a fact that nations have difficulty living up to treaties that are not to their obvious immediate advantage.

 

[P F Tinmore]

In your opinion, perhaps, but both the PA and Israel are still committed to abiding by those agreements.

Both sides have always pointed to it for their own benefit and kicked it to the curb when it was not. It was a shit agreement to begin with and neither side wants to take it seriously.

Actually, both sides take it seriously, as does most of the rest of the world, most notably the donor nations that pay for the civil administrations in both Gaza and the West Bank, however, it is a fact that nations have difficulty living up to treaties that are not to their obvious immediate advantage.

The major goal was to create a Palestinian state in five years. At least that was the sales pitch to the Palestinians. Israel has never wanted a Palestinian state and they dragged Arafat back to Palestine to make sure that did not happen.

The real purpose for Oslo was to set up the PA to outsource the occupation to a Palestinian face and for it to surrender to Israel. The PA was set up as a typical 3rd world oligarchy where a few got rich by screwing their own people. The biggest success for Oslo was that the Palestinians did indeed get screwed.

Enter the second intifada and a new government created by the people. The Palestine Basic Law (constitution) became the law of the land in 2003. This constitution did not mention Israel, or Oslo, or the PLO, or any previous agreements, or any change in its defined borders. In 2006 the oligarchs lost the elections to Hamas.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Both sides have always pointed to it for their own benefit and kicked it to the curb when it was not. It was a shit agreement to begin with and neither side wants to take it seriously.

Actually, both sides take it seriously, as does most of the rest of the world, most notably the donor nations that pay for the civil administrations in both Gaza and the West Bank, however, it is a fact that nations have difficulty living up to treaties that are not to their obvious immediate advantage.

The major goal was to create a Palestinian state in five years. At least that was the sales pitch to the Palestinians. Israel has never wanted a Palestinian state and they dragged Arafat back to Palestine to make sure that did not happen.

The real purpose for Oslo was to set up the PA to outsource the occupation to a Palestinian face and for it to surrender to Israel. The PA was set up as a typical 3rd world oligarchy where a few got rich by screwing their own people. The biggest success for Oslo was that the Palestinians did indeed get screwed.

Enter the second intifada and a new government created by the people. The Palestine Basic Law (constitution) became the law of the land in 2003. This constitution did not mention Israel, or Oslo, or the PLO, or any previous agreements, or any change in its defined borders. In 2006 the oligarchs lost the elections to Hamas.

So Arafat had to be "dragged back" to his "homeland"? And, of course, Israel has to be blamed for the PA's corruption! Like Sharon said after the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, "Arabs kill Arabs, and Israel gets blamed!" As for the second intifada, there was no excuse for its barbarism and savagery. And all because Arafat couldn't accept Barak's and Clinton's offer of 90% of the West Bank to start with, and Sharon's walk on the Temple Mount. Unfortunately, Americans and Europeans judge the Palestinians, and the rest of the Arab world, by Western standards.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Actually, both sides take it seriously, as does most of the rest of the world, most notably the donor nations that pay for the civil administrations in both Gaza and the West Bank, however, it is a fact that nations have difficulty living up to treaties that are not to their obvious immediate advantage.

The major goal was to create a Palestinian state in five years. At least that was the sales pitch to the Palestinians. Israel has never wanted a Palestinian state and they dragged Arafat back to Palestine to make sure that did not happen.

The real purpose for Oslo was to set up the PA to outsource the occupation to a Palestinian face and for it to surrender to Israel. The PA was set up as a typical 3rd world oligarchy where a few got rich by screwing their own people. The biggest success for Oslo was that the Palestinians did indeed get screwed.

Enter the second intifada and a new government created by the people. The Palestine Basic Law (constitution) became the law of the land in 2003. This constitution did not mention Israel, or Oslo, or the PLO, or any previous agreements, or any change in its defined borders. In 2006 the oligarchs lost the elections to Hamas.

So Arafat had to be "dragged back" to his "homeland"? And, of course, Israel has to be blamed for the PA's corruption! Like Sharon said after the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, "Arabs kill Arabs, and Israel gets blamed!" As for the second intifada, there was no excuse for its barbarism and savagery. And all because Arafat couldn't accept Barak's and Clinton's offer of 90% of the West Bank to start with, and Sharon's walk on the Temple Mount. Unfortunately, Americans and Europeans judge the Palestinians, and the rest of the Arab world, by Western standards.

The Oslo Accord restricted the function of the Palestinian Authority (the PA), not only with regard to the control it could exert over the residents of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, but also significantly in making its role to provide cover for Israel's security needs. Moreover, the Road Map committed the leadership of the PA to fight resistance to Israel's military occupation; to strike at the infrastructure of the resistance movements in return for the promise of "the possibility of establishing a Palestinian state". It is within this context that the team of US security coordinators, whose tactics have led to the political and geographic division of the Palestinian people, should be viewed.

Since the beginning of the peace process, it has been apparent that Israel's primary goal has been to rid itself of the burden of administrating the populations of Gaza and the West Bank while retaining control of the largest possible area of land and the protection of Israel's security. The Oslo Accord was signed for this purpose and Israel allowed the PA to form a 3000-strong security force, which later increased to 30,000 in accordance with Oslo 2. The force was increased in size once again so that shortly before the start of the Al-Aqsa Intifada in 2000 it numbered around 40,000.

In July 2000 the failure of Camp David to resolve the final status issues, to establish the borders of a Palestinian state and set a date announcing its establishment, led to the outbreak of the Al-Aqsa Intifada; the popular uprising was encouraged secretly by the then PA President, Yasser Arafat. At that time, Arafat insisted on keeping the security forces under his direct control as he regarded them as a fundamental source of power and authority.

Accordingly, when the 2003 Road Map was released, it stipulated the necessity of a change in the Palestinian leadership along with the inauguration of a Prime Ministerial position. This new post would take on responsibility for the security force and be able to implement security commitments in accordance with the Road Map itself.

It was against this backdrop that in March 2005 an agreement was reached between PA President Mahmoud Abbas, the George W Bush administration and the Ariel Sharon government. This led to the formation of a US security coordination team whose mandate was to train and equip the Palestinian Security Force and to oversee security coordination between the PA and Israel.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk...-between-the-palestinian-authority-and-israel

 

[voice4HR]

not because of anything they had done but simply because they were Jewish,

Not!

They were attacked because they are settlers occupying Palestinian land.

Their religion is irrelevant.

Not true. No predominantly Arab/Muslim locations were targeted by the suicide bombers and none of the Arab/Muslim communities in the Negev, and there are several within range of Gaza, were targeted. Only predominantly Jewish locations and communities have been targeted by Palestinian Arab terrorist gangs.

Israeli forces have been systematically attacking and oppressing the palestinian community monitoring, controlling and often banning the entrance into palestinian communities and the exit as well (info directly from sources of both native palestinians and israelis). In this field i have had the opportunity of meeting many palestinians and israelis as wells as american jews and all oppose the present actions of israel. i am not however ignoring the actions of groups such as Hamas, however the extent of violent acts is not comparable to that of israel.

 

[alexa]

Not that this is responsive to my post, but Israel is not so much traumatized by the Holocaust as the many suicide bombers who blew up Israelis while they were eating or praying, not because of anything they had done but simply because they were Jewish, before the West Bank fence was built and the years of daily bombings of Israeli communities from Gaza. While it is true that the Palestinian Arabs cannot defeat Israel, they can traumatize and kill Israeli civilians if Israel does not remain vigilant and maintain strong security measures to protect them until such time that the Palestinian Arabs throw out the brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments they now have in both Gaza and the West Bank and install a government that will place the people above ideology so that it can give reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns.

You may wish to believe that the Palestinian Arabs will reform their government if they first get a state of their own, but you have no basis in fact or logic for believing it.

He looked at the situation from a psychological perspective. If Israel does not have the values of freedom of speech and social justice then Israel for those reasons alone will be rejected by countries which value those values. He has pinpointed an extremely important point and presented it is a psychological way.

From another viewpoint it could be pointed out that it has nothing to do with security. It is to do with other things, not least a fanatical national religious desire for land.

Security is a red herring. What security is given to the Palestinians? The IDF invariability stands by while settlers attack Palestinians or destroy their property.

Time is running out for Israel. Palestine will become a state and unless Israel starts to agree to the rule of law, she is going to find herself isolated in the world.

All of what Israel does is going to become more common knowledge. I gave you the opportunity to look at this continuous emphasis on 'security' from a psychological perspective, which is one perspective. Whatever the reason for lack of discussion, values do need to be addressed in Israel. He believes it is because Israel lives in a culture of trauma, that the collective psyche is always looking out for self preservation. It could actually be argued that robust discussion of values is one of the things which may ensure Israeli's safety. His point is too good for you to dismiss without, I suspect, even reading.

Bombs exploding at Passover Seders or in restaurants or in buses are not psychological events; that's real blood splattered everywhere and those are real body parts being scraped off the walls. The suicide bombings were ended by reoccupying the West Bank and by building the security fence, not by talking to psychologists. Perhaps this sent a lot of frustrated wannabe suicide bombers in search of psychological help to sort out their feelings and values with respect to not being able to kill Jews, but it provided their prospective victims with a sense of calm and relief greater than any psychological guru ever could.

As for freedom and social justice in Israel, it meets or exceeds the standards of the other great democracies and is beyond the wildest imaginings of most of the Arabs in the region, Which is why you see dissidents like Zoabi daily excoriate the Jews - whom she calls Israelis while calling Arab Israelis Palestinians - the government from the top level right down to the cop on the beat, as well as her fellow legislators while consorting with Israel's sworn enemies and she still not only goes free but continues to serve in the Knesset.

To you a concern about Jews being blown up while eating or praying just because they are Jews may seem a red herring, but to Israeli Jews the memory of the Arab depredations during the second intifada is still fresh, and security is their prime concern not because of the Holocaust but because they saw a few years ago that only the strongest security measures were able to keep them safe from Palestinian Arab terrorists.

You may, in desperation, wish to think time is running out for Israel, but in fact, or that Israel will become isolated, but nothing could be further from the truth. Popular support for Israel in the US is overwhelming and recent polls show it is still growing. Israel has excellent relations with nearly all European countries from the Atlantic right to the doorstep of Russia as well as with China and India and many African and Asian and South American nations. Sympathy for the image of the suffering Palestinian Arab that activists have projected around the world has not resulted in any kind of hardship for Israel.

Btw, not that it's really relevant, but Becker is a lawyer, not a psychologist.

1. You are speaking to the wrong person about the odd bomb. Even though there is now officially peace in Northern Ireland, the last two years have seen a series of terrorists actions and attempts, so your over reaction does no good. Do we see the need to send the SAS in to indiscriminately kill people and destroy homes? Of course not. Are we trembling in our boots and calling out to the world to save us? Of course not.

2. Read the human rights report concerning social justice, equality and International Law in the West Bank . It disgusts.

3. I can't be bothered looking and presenting all the data but your belief that there is social justice for Palestinians in Israel shows someone who has no knowledge of what social justice is. Look at housing, look at education, look at jobs. All you tell 'tall tales' on....never mind demanding someone who is not a Jew gives an allegiance to a Jewish State - that clearly without anything else indicates that Israel is a state which does not treat it's citizens equally but asks Christian and Muslim citizens to be the 'dhimmis' of the Jews.

4. When we are dealing with Israel, it is indeed given different treatment but that difference is preferential treatment.

as an example

Israel is showing itself to be no different to the infamous despotic Arab regimes in its willingness to use brutal force against people demanding their rights. This was clear yesterday when more than a dozen were killed and hundreds injured in Lebanon, Syria's occupied Golan Heights, and in the occupied West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. In Lebanon, 10 were killed and more than 100 injured, including Lebanese soldiers, when Israel opened fire on protesters at the border fence.

Palestinians in Lebanon, at the lonely end of the Arab uprisings | Matthew Cassel | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Did the world intervene and demand Nato make a no fly zone. Not a bit of it. Preferential treatment for Israel.

5. Like it or not a Palestinian State is going to happen in September - a Palestinian State on '67 borders. Then the law will set in and Israel will be called to account by the law just like everyone else. Have a look at Haaretz if you believe that the US alone can save Israel for ever? Note France is wanting meaningful talks now. Note the US trying to get Net to accept OBama's suggestion and get quick into talks on that before September. The US will not be able to protect Israel for much longer.

One thing that gives me heart is the law of karma. Wait long enough and it will come. Estimates of 10 years probably give enough time. The Palestinians will through the rule of law coupled almost certainly with the worldwide isolation and sanctions against Israel get Justice. Of course how it happens is largely up to Israel but it will happen.


6. Makes no difference whether Becker is a lawyer of a psychologist, what he was pointing out was a psychological problem.

 

[toomuchtime_]

He looked at the situation from a psychological perspective. If Israel does not have the values of freedom of speech and social justice then Israel for those reasons alone will be rejected by countries which value those values. He has pinpointed an extremely important point and presented it is a psychological way.

From another viewpoint it could be pointed out that it has nothing to do with security. It is to do with other things, not least a fanatical national religious desire for land.

Security is a red herring. What security is given to the Palestinians? The IDF invariability stands by while settlers attack Palestinians or destroy their property.

Time is running out for Israel. Palestine will become a state and unless Israel starts to agree to the rule of law, she is going to find herself isolated in the world.

All of what Israel does is going to become more common knowledge. I gave you the opportunity to look at this continuous emphasis on 'security' from a psychological perspective, which is one perspective. Whatever the reason for lack of discussion, values do need to be addressed in Israel. He believes it is because Israel lives in a culture of trauma, that the collective psyche is always looking out for self preservation. It could actually be argued that robust discussion of values is one of the things which may ensure Israeli's safety. His point is too good for you to dismiss without, I suspect, even reading.

Bombs exploding at Passover Seders or in restaurants or in buses are not psychological events; that's real blood splattered everywhere and those are real body parts being scraped off the walls. The suicide bombings were ended by reoccupying the West Bank and by building the security fence, not by talking to psychologists. Perhaps this sent a lot of frustrated wannabe suicide bombers in search of psychological help to sort out their feelings and values with respect to not being able to kill Jews, but it provided their prospective victims with a sense of calm and relief greater than any psychological guru ever could.

As for freedom and social justice in Israel, it meets or exceeds the standards of the other great democracies and is beyond the wildest imaginings of most of the Arabs in the region, Which is why you see dissidents like Zoabi daily excoriate the Jews - whom she calls Israelis while calling Arab Israelis Palestinians - the government from the top level right down to the cop on the beat, as well as her fellow legislators while consorting with Israel's sworn enemies and she still not only goes free but continues to serve in the Knesset.

To you a concern about Jews being blown up while eating or praying just because they are Jews may seem a red herring, but to Israeli Jews the memory of the Arab depredations during the second intifada is still fresh, and security is their prime concern not because of the Holocaust but because they saw a few years ago that only the strongest security measures were able to keep them safe from Palestinian Arab terrorists.

You may, in desperation, wish to think time is running out for Israel, but in fact, or that Israel will become isolated, but nothing could be further from the truth. Popular support for Israel in the US is overwhelming and recent polls show it is still growing. Israel has excellent relations with nearly all European countries from the Atlantic right to the doorstep of Russia as well as with China and India and many African and Asian and South American nations. Sympathy for the image of the suffering Palestinian Arab that activists have projected around the world has not resulted in any kind of hardship for Israel.

Btw, not that it's really relevant, but Becker is a lawyer, not a psychologist.

1. You are speaking to the wrong person about the odd bomb. Even though there is now officially peace in Northern Ireland, the last two years have seen a series of terrorists actions and attempts, so your over reaction does no good. Do we see the need to send the SAS in to indiscriminately kill people and destroy homes? Of course not. Are we trembling in our boots and calling out to the world to save us? Of course not.

2. Read the human rights report concerning social justice, equality and International Law in the West Bank . It disgusts.

3. I can't be bothered looking and presenting all the data but your belief that there is social justice for Palestinians in Israel shows someone who has no knowledge of what social justice is. Look at housing, look at education, look at jobs. All you tell 'tall tales' on....never mind demanding someone who is not a Jew gives an allegiance to a Jewish State - that clearly without anything else indicates that Israel is a state which does not treat it's citizens equally but asks Christian and Muslim citizens to be the 'dhimmis' of the Jews.

4. When we are dealing with Israel, it is indeed given different treatment but that difference is preferential treatment.

as an example

Israel is showing itself to be no different to the infamous despotic Arab regimes in its willingness to use brutal force against people demanding their rights. This was clear yesterday when more than a dozen were killed and hundreds injured in Lebanon, Syria's occupied Golan Heights, and in the occupied West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. In Lebanon, 10 were killed and more than 100 injured, including Lebanese soldiers, when Israel opened fire on protesters at the border fence.

Palestinians in Lebanon, at the lonely end of the Arab uprisings | Matthew Cassel | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Did the world intervene and demand Nato make a no fly zone. Not a bit of it. Preferential treatment for Israel.

5. Like it or not a Palestinian State is going to happen in September - a Palestinian State on '67 borders. Then the law will set in and Israel will be called to account by the law just like everyone else. Have a look at Haaretz if you believe that the US alone can save Israel for ever? Note France is wanting meaningful talks now. Note the US trying to get Net to accept OBama's suggestion and get quick into talks on that before September. The US will not be able to protect Israel for much longer.

One thing that gives me heart is the law of karma. Wait long enough and it will come. Estimates of 10 years probably give enough time. The Palestinians will through the rule of law coupled almost certainly with the worldwide isolation and sanctions against Israel get Justice. Of course how it happens is largely up to Israel but it will happen.


6. Makes no difference whether Becker is a lawyer of a psychologist, what he was pointing out was a psychological problem.

All Israeli citizens have equal rights, protections and opportunities under the law, and Israel has an independent judiciary that has fiercely defended those rights whenever some politicians have tried to violate them. While many Arab Israelis have become successful, even prominent, in the professions, the arts, business and politics, substantial numbers lag behind the national averages in education and income, but these are nearly all from all Arab towns and villages that have insisted the schools provide instruction in Arabic and teach Hebrew only as a second language. In a country where 80% of the population speaks Hebrew as its first language, lack of proficiency in Hebrew puts these students at obvious disadvantage in terms of future education and earnings, but Arab Israeli politicians, all of whom have arrived at their present positions by mastering Hebrew and passing through Israeli colleges and professional schools, who have their voter bases in these towns have urged their constituents to shun all things Israeli or Jewish, including the Hebrew language, in order to affirm a Palestinian identity.

Minorities are at similar disadvantages in all countries, certainly including the US, UK and France. Like the other great democracies, Israel has taken steps to try to remove these disadvantages, such as busing, on a voluntary basis, both Jewish Israeli and Arab Israeli students to schools where they will be exposed to the other culture, reserving spaces in colleges and professional schools for Arab Israeli students and providing special scholarships for them, but as in the other great democracies, these efforts have had only limited success. No honest person would pretend that the problems of minorities among Israeli citizens are any different from the problems of minorities in the other great democracies.

No one has asked Israeli citizens to pledge allegiance to the Jewish state. The proposed legislation only asked that those who want to become Israeli citizens in the future make such a pledge. This is no different from the laws regarding new citizens in the other great democracies. In each case, the applicant must pledge allegiance to the state even if he/she strongly disagrees with some of its laws or policies. Pledging allegiance to the Jewish state should be no special burden for Muslims or others, unless the word, Jewish is just too offensive to you to utter, since all Israeli citizens enjoy equal rights, protections and opportunities under the law and religious matters, including some domestic matters such as marriage and divorce are under the jurisdiction of the leaders of each religion. So if you are a Muslim or a Christian, religious matters and some domestic matters will be decided for you by Muslim religious leaders or Christian religious leaders and Jewish law or practice will not effect you at all.

Indeed, calling Israel a Jewish state should raise no objections to new Muslim citizens that they would not have as new citizens in the other great democracies when they find the government closes down on Sunday, the Christian Sabbath or that the country erupts in messages and celebrations of Christianity at Christmas or Easter. While calling Israel a Jewish state has benefits for Jews in other places, it does not limit the rights, protections or opportunities of non Jewish citizens of Israel, so why should they care, unless they find the word, Jewish, so hateful they just cannot bare to hear it uttered?

While I agree, because of the way it was handled, that the Second Lebanon War was a mistake, it is simply not true that no action was taken to end it. The UNSC passed resolution 1701 which required, among other things, that Israel withdraw from Lebanon and it did. While you may be disappointed that NATO didn't kill any Israelis, it is simply not true that the international community or the US failed to take action to stop the war.

It's just idiotic to believe that there will be a Palestinian state in September that is more than a Facebook state, and it is even more idiotic to hope that there will be through the GA. Without a unified government there will be no support for a Palestinian state at the UN, which is why Abbas and Hamas are going through the motions of constructing one. But if there is one, then under US law, all US support for that government, $400,000,000 this year, would have to stop since Hamas is listed as a terrorist group. Similarly, the EU lists Hamas as a terrorist group and that would put an end to most if not all donations from EU countries. Since the civil administrations in both the West Bank and Gaza are by far the largest employers in these economies, and since nearly the entire costs of these civil administrations are paid for with these donations, the loss of them would have disastrous economic consequences for the Arabs living there.

Hundreds of millions more would be lost when Israel, to prevent money for going to Hamas, shut its border with the West Bank to all goods and people and refused to collect customs duties for the PA, its major source of revenue after donations, and this would also leave most West Bank crops rotting in the fields since there would be no available customers. All traffic out of the West Bank would have to pass through Jordan, which already strictly limits the movement of West Bank Arabs through it territory. To reach the Mediterranean or Gaza, goods and people would have to travel through Jordan, across the Red Sea and through Sinai. Under international law, Israel would be relieved of its responsibilities as an occupying force and would no longer have to supply fuel or electricity to either Gaza or the West Bank. While Gaza might be able to get some of the fuel and electricity it needs from Egypt, the West Bank would be dark, cold and without much movement.

It should be clear to any reasonably intelligent person that for a new Palestinian state to survive, let alone prosper, it will need excellent relations with Israel, so no one who is truly pro Palestinian and not merely anti Israeli would want the see the kind of abortion that the PA now proposes to ask the UN for.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Not!

They were attacked because they are settlers occupying Palestinian land.

Their religion is irrelevant.

Not true. No predominantly Arab/Muslim locations were targeted by the suicide bombers and none of the Arab/Muslim communities in the Negev, and there are several within range of Gaza, were targeted. Only predominantly Jewish locations and communities have been targeted by Palestinian Arab terrorist gangs.

Israeli forces have been systematically attacking and oppressing the palestinian community monitoring, controlling and often banning the entrance into palestinian communities and the exit as well (info directly from sources of both native palestinians and israelis). In this field i have had the opportunity of meeting many palestinians and israelis as wells as american jews and all oppose the present actions of israel. i am not however ignoring the actions of groups such as Hamas, however the extent of violent acts is not comparable to that of israel.

None of this happens, of course, within Israel, and the checkpoints, roadblocks and arrests of terrorist to which you refer have always been in proportion to and in response to the number of terrorist attacks and attempted attacks on Israeli civilians. Before the second intifada, there were very few checkpoints or roadblocks. The border between Israel and the West Bank was virtually, if not officially, open. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs freely crossed the border every day to either go to work or to do business in Israel, and similarly, Israelis passed back and forth to the West Bank to buy or sell goods.

The second intifada ended all of this. The flood of suicide bombers and other terrorist attackers made the reoccupation of the West Bank, the security fence and the roadblocks and checkpoints necessary in order for the government of Israel to protect Israeli civilians from determined attackers who were willing to die in order to kill Jewish civilians. However, under Netanyahu, roadblocks and checkpoints have been withdrawn in response and in proportion to the PA's enhanced efforts, under US pressure, to prevent terrorist attacks and because of Netanyahu's plan to try to encourage prosperous self government among the Palestinian Arabs until such time when talk of statehood is practical.

Freedom of movement and prosperity have always been under the control of the Palestinian Arabs. A return to conditions before the second intifada would be a great economic boon to Israel as well, and most Israelis would welcome it if they could be satisfied they would not again come under attack.

 

[P F Tinmore]

A return to conditions before the second intifada would be a great economic boon to Israel as well, and most Israelis would welcome it if they could be satisfied they would not again come under attack.

There will be no peace until there is a return to the conditions before the occupation. Israel expects peace while keeping the occupation. That is not going to happen. The ball is in Israel's court.

 

[Ropey]

Israel is Red. Muslim is Green.

Zionism is the problem?