Do you consider this Justice? Is this who we are?

[Marener]

Would they work for a higher wage and because welfare programs for the able bodied were cut?

1. “They” don’t really exist the way you guys like to imagine
2. There is very little if any programs that apply to able bodied Americans without dependents.
3. The wages are already pretty good, it’s the work itself that’s a problem since it’s often quite difficult
4. If wages have to go too high, they won’t be able to turn a profit and the business just ends.

 

[SweetTea]

And I’m saying that any low skill American that needs a job already has a job.

I don’t think there’s tons of people waiting to fill these jobs. They just don’t exist. You invented them to justify deportations because you want deportations. Just like you invented the idea that there’s some massive welfare state that hasn’t existed since before Clinton and you invented a policy platform to get rid of the welfare that doesn’t really exist.

It’s a fantasy.

The fantasy is that we don’t have millions of Americans that are not working simply because they don’t want to and, thanks to bleeding hearts like yourself, don’t have to. Take a drive through section 8 housing or through very poor trailer parks and notice how many able bodied folks are sitting on their porches or hanging out on the street corner. Sure, some of these may work, but you and I both know that many don’t.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Are these Americans that you are speaking of homeless, starving and persecuted to be killed? If they are, I would definitely support them looking for survival.

Are you saying all of these people are/were homeless, starving and persecuted to be killed? I can believe a handful are but, all of them? Even the gang members?

This didn't happen because the overall moral character of our country changed, this happened because a man made a choice nineteen years ago to enter a country by way of other than legal means and set up residence there.

This is on him and the fact that it's happening now after having raised a family (another choice) only means that he wasn't found and deported nineteen years ago. If it had happened then, we wouldn't even be having this discussion and having our national moral character questioned.

Let me ask you a question "if you were facing death, would you give up without trying to live?

This question is premised on the assumption that all of these people are facing death. I know that is not true.

 

[Marener]

The fantasy is that we don’t have millions of Americans that are not working simply because they don’t want to and, thanks to bleeding hearts like yourself, don’t have to. Take a drive through section 8 housing or through very poor trailer parks and notice how many able bodied folks are sitting on their porches or hanging out on the street corner. Sure, some of these may work, but you and I both know that many don’t.

Insofar as you can find these people who aren’t working, their primary means of survival is almost certainly disability, which is not welfare.

Your entire argument here relies on some vague welfare reform agenda. What happens if you deport millions of workers and don’t change anything about welfare?

 

[SweetTea]

There is very little if any programs that apply to able bodied Americans without dependents.

Untrue. There are many programs available, including free housing. Often, proof that they are searching for a job is all that is required and we all know what a scam that is. Also, I like the fact that you add in the without dependents qualifier. Many have kids and get money for each one in the form of tax credit, which is really nothing more than welfare for those that don’t pay taxes in the first place. $1700 per child under 17 is fully refundable(welfare), meaning a person not working with 3 kids gets a check for $5100/yr or $425/mth. This is in addition to not paying for any utilities or housing, SNAP for food, standard welfare check per month and Medicaid for health insurance. No, they don’t live a life of luxury, but should they be afforded all of this simply because they don’t want to work?

Maybe you are unaware of how much some people are being paid not to work. Why work when the welfare benefit pays the equivalent or even more than working?

• In 9 states, welfare pays more than the average first-year salary of a teacher.
• In 29 states, benefits surpass the starting salary for secretaries.
• In 47 states, welfare exceeds the income of janitors.

How Much does Welfare Pay in the US? A State-by-State Comparison of Benefits

 

[Marener]

Untrue. There are many programs available, including free housing. Often, proof that they are searching for a job is all that is required and we all know what a scam that is. Also, I like the fact that you add in the without dependents qualifier. Many have kids and get money for each one in the form of tax credit, which is really nothing more than welfare for those that don’t pay taxes in the first place. $1700 per child under 17 is fully refundable(welfare), meaning a person not working with 3 kids gets a check for $5100/yr or $425/mth. This is in addition to not paying for any utilities or housing, SNAP for food, standard welfare check per month and Medicaid for health insurance. No, they don’t live a life of luxury, but should they be afforded all of this simply because they don’t want to work?

Maybe you are unaware of how much some people are being paid not to work. Why work when the welfare benefit pays the equivalent or even more than working?

• In 9 states, welfare pays more than the average first-year salary of a teacher.
• In 29 states, benefits surpass the starting salary for secretaries.
• In 47 states, welfare exceeds the income of janitors.

How Much does Welfare Pay in the US? A State-by-State Comparison of Benefits

Your vague website doesn’t really provide details sufficient to directly argue, it’s also kind of a garbage site.

Undoubtedly, the problem is that you’re redefining benefits as pay. Having Medicaid is a benefit, but you’re not being paid for it. There’s a difference between collecting a salary and getting your doctors visits paid for.

 

[Luckyone]

Are you saying all of these people are/were homeless, starving and persecuted to be killed? I can believe a handful are but, all of them? Even the gang members?

This didn't happen because the overall moral character of our country changed, this happened because a man made a choice nineteen years ago to enter a country by way of other than legal means and set up residence there.

This is on him and the fact that it's happening now after having raised a family (another choice) only means that he wasn't found and deported nineteen years ago. If it had happened then, we wouldn't even be having this discussion and having our national moral character questioned.

This question is premised on the assumption that all of these people are facing death. I know that is not true.

Hunger and starvation is a form of death.

See post #58 for details of what these people are going through and then answer this question "if you were living under the same conditions, what would you do?"

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Actually you may want to rethink that, he was breaking the law everyday!

I'm sure he had taxes withheld from every check and filed a tax return every year.

 

[Woodznutz]

Somebody sure did choke that chicken.

Stretched it too. "B'gawk!

 

[SweetTea]

Your vague website doesn’t really provide details sufficient to directly argue, it’s also kind of a garbage site.

Undoubtedly, the problem is that you’re redefining benefits as pay. Having Medicaid is a benefit, but you’re not being paid for it. There’s a difference between collecting a salary and getting your doctors visits paid for.

Any information presented to you, factual or not, is seen as garbage. That seems to be common among people on your side of the aisle. Accepting that you may be wrong is just not in the cards.

Yes, I included Medicaid because it is a benefit that those that make too much money don't receive. Just more incentive not to work.

By all means, continue refuting the indefensible belief that people will work if they must to survive and some will choose not to work if they can survive without doing so.

 

[Frankenstein]

I'm sure he had taxes withheld from every check and filed a tax return every year.

sure sure

 

[Marener]

Any information presented to you, factual or not, is seen as garbage. That seems to be common among people on your side of the aisle. Accepting that you may be wrong is just not in the cards.

Yes, I included Medicaid because it is a benefit that those that make too much money don't receive. Just more incentive not to work.

By all means, continue refuting the indefensible belief that people will work if they must to survive and some will choose not to work if they can survive without doing so.

A lot of times it is, and a lot of times it’s misconstrued.

It’s not like I’m running around saying that government crime data is fake because it goes down or that unemployment data is fake because I don’t want to believe it. Right wingers have been doing that for decades now. Started around Obama’s reelection in 2012.

Your website doesn’t give enough information to argue against but I’ve seen similar arguments in the past.

At least I address your points. You try not to address mine.

 

[80zephyr]

Have you guys thought about getting better jobs?

I'm retired. Unlike you, I care about my fellow citizens.

 

[Marener]

I'm retired. Unlike you, I care about my fellow citizens.

If you cared about them, why do you want them stuck in low wage, low skill jobs with no future?

 

[80zephyr]

If you cared about them, why do you want them stuck in low wage, low skill jobs with no future?

Someone has to dig the ditches, serve the food, don't they?

 

[Marener]

Someone has to dig the ditches, serve the food, don't they?

Remind me what happened when we said to raise minimum wage?

The right wing said that these people working low skill jobs aren’t supposed to get a living wage and are supposed to be living in poverty.

 

[sartre play]

Things just keep getting messier and meaner, question is this the right direction?
Can we not find a better way to work on immigration reform?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Remind me what happened when we said to raise minimum wage?

The right wing said that these people working low skill jobs aren’t supposed to get a living wage and are supposed to be living in poverty.

Deport all the low wage illegals in those jobs now, the citizens working those
jobs will earn more. Right?

 

[SweetTea]

Your website doesn’t give enough information to argue against but I’ve seen similar arguments in the past.

It's funny how you require such a large burden of proof when presented with information that doesn't coincide with your political ideology and yet swallow whatever "garbage" you are fed that does.

 

[SweetTea]

Deport all the low wage illegals in those jobs now, the citizens working those
jobs will earn more. Right?

He doesn't understand this rather simple and obvious concept. It just doesn't compute.