Do you approve or disapprove of Joe Biden's performance on Afghanistan?

[AzogtheDefiler]

LOL

Nah, I didn't have to change it. I just got bored with it. But thanks for noticing.

Change it back then. And yes they Squad the face of the Democratic Party now whether you choose to believe it or not.

 

[skye]

I just saw this poll.

I voted for ...

What else? .....disapprove

Biden, the Scum in Chief.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Uh, there was a crisis at the border because Trump left millions of people trapped on the Mexican side of the border.

Not that it's really a crisis.

As for Afghanistan... they had 20 years to get their shit together... and they didn't.

No one was trapped anywhere. Thousands went home.

 

[blackhawk]

Most regardless of party supported leaving few if any support the way it was carried out.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

81% against.

I bet 20% of Biden voters are having buyer's remorse. And I don't blame them. They had no idea what his stances were or who he was. They only knew he wasn't what the media dictated as evil orange man. That's it. That was enough.

 

[JoeB131]

81% against.

I bet 20% of Biden voters are having buyer's remorse. And I don't blame them. They had no idea what his stances were or who he was. They only knew he wasn't what the media dictated as evil orange man. That's it. That was enough.

I don't have any remorse.. This would have been even more fucked up if Trump had handled it.

In fact, most of why this was fucked up was because Trump released 5000 Taliban Hard cases and then sold out the provisional government.

My only regret is that our country of really stupid people won't figure out, "oh, yeah. Imperialism is stupid". We didn't learn that lesson 100 years ago in the Philippines, we didn't learn that lesson 50 years ago in Vietnam, and we aren't going to learn it this time in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[xyz]

Yes, Trump had 5000 Taliban freed, including their leader and various military leaders. The deal was that they wouldn't shoot on US and foreign allies, but could attack the Afghan Army. The Afghani side didn't have much say in these deals. It was basically a surrender.

Yes, Trump would have done a worse job, but I voted "disapprove". I think Biden could have done a better job and taken the matter more seriously, and given it more consideration.

Some of the Afghan forces capitulated after they ran out of food. I would say this is bad logistic support from the US, which they should have supplied, in my opinion. I don't know what was written in the "peace deal". Now that the US has bad intel, especially the CIA, is kind of a known fact, unfortunately, and I wouldn't say it was Biden's fault for the way it's structured.

 

[U2Edge]

Let's dissect this bullshit sandwich.



NO, it means that you take a long hard look at the value. Hey, if it were up to me, everyone in the world should live like Americans. But the world isn't populated by Americans. Not everyone wants to be an American. Not everyone shares American values.

The fact that the Taliban was still a vibrant military and political force in Afghanistan 20 years after our invasion should tell you a lot about how we misjudged that society.

If we were still worried about the Nazis coming back into power in Germany in the 1960's, I would have called that a failure as well. Of course, by 1965, Germans realized that the Nazis were in the wrong and there just wasn't a lot of sympathy for Onkel Hans who keeps his SS Uniform in the attic.



Actually, I put the clock at 2009, when Karzai stole the election. That was when it should have been abundantly clear to everyone that they were never going to be able to form a legitimate government, and that he and his associate were nothing more than American Quislings.



They didn't need to. The untold story was how the local tribal leaders had reached accommodations with the Taliban, allowing them to move freely and take very few casualties in the process. Not surprisingly, these were the same tribal leaders who flipped to the Taliban without even token resistance.



But they weren't doing the fighting. Now, you guys make a big deal out of 70K Afghan Quislings dying in the 20 years or war... Um, so what? In Vietnam, 313,000 Vietnamese died fighting for the RVN, but at the end of the day, most of them weren't willing to keep fighting a losing war for a corrupt government.

Now, there have been plenty of successful examples of COIN operations where the locals took up the fight and won. But that actually involved the will to win, which the Afghans clearly didn't have.


Well, holy shit, I would hope that after pumping 2 TRILLION dollars into the country over 20 years, their standard of living would have gone up. I wish we had spent 2 Trillion dollars in this country on infrastructure or education.



Throwing good money after bad is still throwing away money.




Again, works on the assumption that Afghanistan wanted to be a mini-me America.




Awesome... Who cares? Clearly, not what the people of Afghanistan wanted.



Oh, I'm totally calling shenanigan's on this one. The reason why we didn't have another 9/11 attack is we started taking internal security seriously. Not because the guys who were double dealing us with the Taliban every minute of the war were "helping" us all that much.

The United States was never trying to turn Afghanistan into Switzerland, Canada or the United States itself. That is just some bullshit strawman argument that people throw up.

But when you invade a country and remove a government, you have to replace that government with a functioning government of some sort. The United States did that, but that government is not fully developed yet. Those things take time. Hospitals don't dump patients in the street because after some arbitrary time period, they decide their done treating them.

The Taliban have a semi-sanctuary in Pakistan. They also have the remote regions of Afghanistan to hide in. So that is not really some great accomplishment by the Taliban or mis-management by U.S., NATO or the Afghan government. It also means little, because when you don't control any of the 34 provincial capitals in Afghanistan, you have virtually no say in what is going on with the majority of the population. That is why millions of women and girls in Afghanistan have been going to school the past 20 years. IF the Taliban had any real power as you claim, they should have been able to prevent that from happening like they did from 1996-2001.



The situation in Afghanistan had been stable from January 2015 till April 2021 when BIDEN announced is complete withdrawal regardless of conditions on the ground. The Afghan military since 2015 was doing 99% of the fighting and taking over 99% of the casualties. That was a HUGE improvement from the years 2001 through 2014. But the small NATO force still in country was vital to Logistics for the Afghan military, Air Power, as well as the psychological factor of being aided by the international community and not being alone in their development and fight.

Lets look at the evidence of the past six years:

Afghanistan Total Districts and Provincial Capitals:
421 Districts
34 Provincial Capitals

November 28, 2017
Taliban controlled districts: 73
Taliban controlled Provincial Capitals: 0

April 13, 2021
Taliban controlled districts: 77
Taliban controlled Provincial Capitals: 0

April 14, 2021
BIDEN announces complete withdrawal of U.S. forces from Afghanistan by September 2021, regardless of conditions on the ground.

August 16, 2021
Taliban controlled districts: 405
Taliban controlled Provincial Capitals: 32


As you can see from the Data, the situation from January 2015 through April 2021 was stable. The Massive problems came from the Sudden pullout of NATO forces that were vital to logistical tail of the Afghan military. Important Air Assets were also pulled out that made it more difficult for the Afghan military to fight. Then there was the psychological factor of suddenly being abandoned. Well, trained troops can fight when they are fed and have ammo for their weapons. Not so well, when they don't receive such supplies in a timely manner any more because those in charge of logistics picked up and left.

Had JOE BIDEN kept the 10,000 NATO troops on the ground in Afghanistan, 2021 would have been no different than any of the years from 2015 through 2020 for the Afghan military, Afghan people, and Afghan government. The United States also would not be in a situation where it is rushing troops back to Afghanistan to evacuate thousands of people who are now potential hostages of the TALIBAN. This makes the Iran/hostage situation look like a picnic. What type of idiot abandons a country to the enemy, and allows 15,000 American citizens to become potential hostages!?


The Afghan military lost over 42,000 soldiers and policeman in combat the last six years. When the Taliban briefly retook the provincial capital of Kunduz in 2015 and in 2016, it was the Afghan military the regrouped and went in and retook the City. A military that is unwilling to fight, would not be able to do that.

The South Vietnamese military did just well in 1972, much better than they had done in 1965 and defeated the North Vietnamese Easter Offensive. Yes, they had U.S. Airpower and U.S. advisors, but most of the ground fighting was done by them. The Vietnam war by then was no longer a Counter-insurgency war, but had morphed into a conventional war fought along South Vietnamese border with Cambodia, Laos, and North Vietnam. The South Vietnamese would have been able to continue to hold back the North, but the 1973 U.S. congress cut off all funds for further U.S. military involvement in South Vietnam in the summer of 1973. They also then started cut of money to support the government and military in South Vietnam. The South Vietnamese as a result started having serious shortages of ammo, fuel and spare parts, over the next 18 months. This put the South Vietnamese military into a weakened state by 1975, while the North Vietnamese had become stronger because the Soviets and Chinese continued to poor in aid. It wasn't the lack of will to fight, but the abandonment of a military that was not ready to fight on its own yet, and could not supply itself. No military can fight without have the logistical means to do so. No ammo, fuel, spare parts, any military force begins to collapse.


The United States did not spend 2 Trillion on Afghanistan. Most of the 1.2 Trillion figure comes simply from the stationing of troops in the country. More importantly, those cost in the 2015 to 2021 period were a fraction of what they were in the 2001 to 2014 period. The troop deployment was less than $15 Billion dollars a year by 2015.


Anyone who is serious about protecting the United States from further terrorist attacks would not decide to suddenly turn over a country like Afghanistan to a terrorist organization like the TALIBAN. But that is exactly what JOE BIDEN and those who still support him did!

 

[U2Edge]

I don't have any remorse.. This would have been even more fucked up if Trump had handled it.

In fact, most of why this was fucked up was because Trump released 5000 Taliban Hard cases and then sold out the provisional government.

My only regret is that our country of really stupid people won't figure out, "oh, yeah. Imperialism is stupid". We didn't learn that lesson 100 years ago in the Philippines, we didn't learn that lesson 50 years ago in Vietnam, and we aren't going to learn it this time in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Trump was terrible, but BIDEN could have corrected Trump's mistakes. Instead he doubled down on them. Sure, releasing 5,000 prisoners last year was stupid, but it did not cause the Afghan Government and military collapse. In fact, the Taliban did not even pick up any districts or provincial capitals.

There was no significant change on the battlefield the past 6 years until BIDEN pulled the small NATO force out. It was after that, that the Afghan military and government collapsed. That is where things went wrong OFF THE CHARTS. Before that you had relative stability. That is when chaos occurred and BIDEN was forced to send 6,000 U.S. troops back into the country because he forgot there were 5,000 American citizens still on the ground who have now become potential hostages of the Taliban.

Failure and stupidity on so many levels. Yet, just as Trump has his followers unwilling to change course despite the facts, so does Biden!

Biden was a respectable politician before this. Now he is part of the worst back to back duo of U.S. Presidents in history.

 

[ekrem]

American prestige took a knock-out blow in Afghanistan

 

[Faun]

Trump was terrible, but BIDEN could have corrected Trump's mistakes. Instead he doubled down on them. Sure, releasing 5,000 prisoners last year was stupid, but it did not cause the Afghan Government and military collapse. In fact, the Taliban did not even pick up any districts or provincial capitals.

There was no significant change on the battlefield the past 6 years until BIDEN pulled the small NATO force out. It was after that, that the Afghan military and government collapsed. That is where things went wrong OFF THE CHARTS. Before that you had relative stability. That is when chaos occurred and BIDEN was forced to send 6,000 U.S. troops back into the country because he forgot there were 5,000 American citizens still on the ground who have now become potential hostages of the Taliban.

Failure and stupidity on so many levels. Yet, just as Trump has his followers unwilling to change course despite the facts, so does Biden!

Biden was a respectable politician before this. Now he is part of the worst back to back duo of U.S. Presidents in history.

 

[JoeB131]

The United States was never trying to turn Afghanistan into Switzerland, Canada or the United States itself. That is just some bullshit strawman argument that people throw up.

But when you invade a country and remove a government, you have to replace that government with a functioning government of some sort. The United States did that, but that government is not fully developed yet. Those things take time. Hospitals don't dump patients in the street because after some arbitrary time period, they decide their done treating them.

Naw, Hospitals dump people in the street when their insurance runs out... Helllooooo... what country do you live in?

The Afghans had 20 years to put together a functioning government, and they failed to do so. Frankly, it was more time than the Germans needed, they had a functioning government in 7 years after we literally levelled the place. There were not a bunch of Nazis hiding in the Alps, waiting to seize power the moment we left. We weren't still fighting in Japan in 1965.

Part of the problem here is that Afghanistan has always been kind of a legal fiction. It's that Tribal buffer zone that sat between two now defunct empires (The British and the Russian), not an actual nationality.

The Taliban have a semi-sanctuary in Pakistan. They also have the remote regions of Afghanistan to hide in. So that is not really some great accomplishment by the Taliban or mis-management by U.S., NATO or the Afghan government. It also means little, because when you don't control any of the 34 provincial capitals in Afghanistan, you have virtually no say in what is going on with the majority of the population. That is why millions of women and girls in Afghanistan have been going to school the past 20 years. IF the Taliban had any real power as you claim, they should have been able to prevent that from happening like they did from 1996-2001.

Again, look how easily all those capitals fell... tells me that the Afghan "Army" hold on them wasn't that great.

But, yes, yes, we needed to spend 2 Trillion so Afghan girls could go to school, after the idiots we armed back in the 1980's told them they couldn't.

Here's a crazy idea. Let's stop sticking our dicks in the hornet's nest and complaining about getting stung.

The situation in Afghanistan had been stable from January 2015 till April 2021 when BIDEN announced is complete withdrawal regardless of conditions on the ground. The Afghan military since 2015 was doing 99% of the fighting and taking over 99% of the casualties. That was a HUGE improvement from the years 2001 through 2014. But the small NATO force still in country was vital to Logistics for the Afghan military, Air Power, as well as the psychological factor of being aided by the international community and not being alone in their development and fight.

Again, not really. They weren't engaging the Taliban. If you are fighting a 20 year war and only take 42K casualties, you aren't trying very hard. They had a 4-1 advantage on the Taliban and billions of dollars in advanced American equipment, and they folded like a cheap suit.

Now, here's the thing. We HAVE had examples of "successful" counter-insurgencies. Greece and Turkey in the 1950's, the Philippines in the 1960's, El Salvador in the 1980's come to mind. These involved actually having people who were willing to fight for their countries, even if their governments were a bit shit.

A bunch of guys collecting checks until we leave, and then they switch back to the other side was never a sound strategy.

As you can see from the Data, t

The data is bullshit.

Had JOE BIDEN kept the 10,000 NATO troops on the ground in Afghanistan, 2021 would have been no different than any of the years from 2015 through 2020 for the Afghan military, Afghan people, and Afghan government. The United States also would not be in a situation where it is rushing troops back to Afghanistan to evacuate thousands of people who are now potential hostages of the TALIBAN. This makes the Iran/hostage situation look like a picnic. What type of idiot abandons a country to the enemy, and allows 15,000 American citizens to become potential hostages!?

Sorry, man, "Slightly inconvenienced at the airport" is not the hostage crisis, no matter how much you want to pretend it is.

The 15,000 Americans over there are kind of idiots for not getting out months ago, when Trump essentially surrendered to the Taliban....

The Afghan military lost over 42,000 soldiers and policeman in combat the last six years. When the Taliban briefly retook the provincial capital of Kunduz in 2015 and in 2016, it was the Afghan military the regrouped and went in and retook the City. A military that is unwilling to fight, would not be able to do that.

Okay, but they were unwilling to fight in 2021, that was the thing. They literally dropped their weapons. Oh, but that's Biden's fault.... no, really.

Here's the real problem. On Paper, Afghanistan had a 300,000 man Army with an additional 50,000 police. In reality, they had 20,000 man special operations force and all the rest were just collecting paychecks as long as the Americans were writing checks... that is when the Checks got to them and they werent being stolen by local commanders

The South Vietnamese military did just well in 1972, much better than they had done in 1965 and defeated the North Vietnamese Easter Offensive. Yes, they had U.S. Airpower and U.S. advisors, but most of the ground fighting was done by them. The Vietnam war by then was no longer a Counter-insurgency war, but had morphed into a conventional war fought along South Vietnamese border with Cambodia, Laos, and North Vietnam. The South Vietnamese would have been able to continue to hold back the North, but the 1973 U.S. congress cut off all funds for further U.S. military involvement in South Vietnam in the summer of 1973.

Wow, repeating this mythology, are we? Are we also going to talk about how the Jews stabbed the Kaiser in the back in World War I?

The last year before Saigon fell, the US government gave them $700 million in military aid...(About 5 billion in today's dollars). We did not cut them off. They just stopped fighting.

And we apparently learned not a fucking thing from the experience....

The United States did not spend 2 Trillion on Afghanistan. Most of the 1.2 Trillion figure comes simply from the stationing of troops in the country. More importantly, those cost in the 2015 to 2021 period were a fraction of what they were in the 2001 to 2014 period. The troop deployment was less than $15 Billion dollars a year by 2015.

Wow, is that all? Just 15 Billion and you to can continue the Forever War for another year! What you forget is the debilitating effect the Forever War had on the US Army. The same National Guard units being sent in over and over again, soldiers being hopped up on amphetamines to keep them alert. The army having to enlist sub-standard characters like Bowe Bergdahl, Bradley/Chelsea Manning and Nidal Hassan who had no business being in a uniform.

I had a coworker who was a marine in Afghanistan. He had to ask all of his neighbors not to set off fireworks on the Fourth of July because it might give him flashbacks...

But, no, no, Biden is a bastard for not continuing that shit for another 15 years.

Anyone who is serious about protecting the United States from further terrorist attacks would not decide to suddenly turn over a country like Afghanistan to a terrorist organization like the TALIBAN. But that is exactly what JOE BIDEN and those who still support him did!

Why would the terrorists need Afghanistan. 20 years of the Forever War have already given them much more fertile playgrounds in Libya, Iraq, Syria and Yemen.

The ugly truth was that Al Qaeda never liked being in Afghanistan... and most of them fled after we toppled the Taliban and set up shop in those other countries. Since Al Qaeda is a mostly Arab network, they were happy to go where other Arabs live and make their lives miserable.

 

[JoeB131]

Trump was terrible, but BIDEN could have corrected Trump's mistakes. Instead he doubled down on them. Sure, releasing 5,000 prisoners last year was stupid, but it did not cause the Afghan Government and military collapse. In fact, the Taliban did not even pick up any districts or provincial capitals.

What is your obsession about Provincial capitals? The fact is, they fell pretty quickly when the Taliban marched up, said, "Hey, guys, you can give up, or we can come in, kill you, kill your family and make you watch."

I mean, saying that the Quisling goverment was doing fine until the Taliban actually launched an offensive is like saying the Titanic was making great time until it hit the iceberg.

There was no significant change on the battlefield the past 6 years until BIDEN pulled the small NATO force out. It was after that, that the Afghan military and government collapsed. That is where things went wrong OFF THE CHARTS. Before that you had relative stability. That is when chaos occurred and BIDEN was forced to send 6,000 U.S. troops back into the country because he forgot there were 5,000 American citizens still on the ground who have now become potential hostages of the Taliban.

Yes, the Afghan Government was stable as long as we propped it up... We've been propping it up for 20 years, knowing the day we stopped propping it up, it would fall. Seriously, when I think of the Afghan Government, this is the image I have.

Because if you actually allowed the Taliban to be on the ballot in Afghanistan, they would win in a landslide over the quislings we supported.

Failure and stupidity on so many levels. Yet, just as Trump has his followers unwilling to change course despite the facts, so does Biden!

Biden was a respectable politician before this. Now he is part of the worst back to back duo of U.S. Presidents in history.

In a month, most Americans will be THRILLED we are out of the Forever War.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Biden was a respectable politician before this.

His entire career, Biden has been a shining example of why many would consider the term “respectable politician” to be an oxymoron. It's only become more obvious, what has always been about him, now that he's in a unique position of power, rather than just one member of Congress with many others to balance him out.

 

[kyzr]

IMHO JoeB131 nailed the debate.

U2Edge has no solution other than "endless war" in AFG wasting $52b a year and several NATO lives a year forever. Why? To keep a lid on AFG because their army is worthless. Let the AFGs live under the Taliban until the majority decides that's not how they want to live.

 

[gipper]

His entire career, Biden has been a shining example of why many would consider the term “respectable politician” to be an oxymoron. It's only become more obvious, what has always been about him, now that he's in a unique position of power, rather than just one member of Congress with many others to balance him out.

This is certainly true.

The fact that Joe Biden's mind has declined sharply in recent years is not significant because it means the US president can't lead the country, it's significant because it shows no US president ever leads the country. - Caitlin Johnstone

 

[U2Edge]

What is your obsession about Provincial capitals? The fact is, they fell pretty quickly when the Taliban marched up, said, "Hey, guys, you can give up, or we can come in, kill you, kill your family and make you watch."

I mean, saying that the Quisling goverment was doing fine until the Taliban actually launched an offensive is like saying the Titanic was making great time until it hit the iceberg.

View attachment 529516



Yes, the Afghan Government was stable as long as we propped it up... We've been propping it up for 20 years, knowing the day we stopped propping it up, it would fall. Seriously, when I think of the Afghan Government, this is the image I have.

View attachment 529515

Because if you actually allowed the Taliban to be on the ballot in Afghanistan, they would win in a landslide over the quislings we supported.



In a month, most Americans will be THRILLED we are out of the Forever War.

Again, LOOK AT THE FACTS of 2015-2020.

THE TALIBAN launched large offensives against various bases, districts and some provincial capitals in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 and they were all DEFEATED! They were defeated with a small deployment of NATO troops backing up a large Afghan military that was doing 99% of the fighting.

The United States and NATO were officially in a ADVISE AND ASSIST mission from 2015 onwards. Obama had ended NATO's combat mission back in 2014.

This endless WAR, forever War is a bunch of BULLSHIT! More U.S. troops were being killed in training accidents than being killed by hostile fire from the Taliban in Afghanistan.


Your Titanic example does not fit, because there would be no sinking, no Iceberg had the United States and NATO continued to provide the support that the Afghan military and government at their stage of development still needed.


ANOTHER THING! You seem to be ignorant of what it takes for a military force, any military force to effectively operate on the battlefield. They need rapid supply of food, ammo, medical aid, and repair of equipment. U.S. and NATO contractors were providing that KEY LOGISTICAL component, without which NO MILITARY in the world can effectively fight and would end up having to surrender.

 

[U2Edge]

Naw, Hospitals dump people in the street when their insurance runs out... Helllooooo... what country do you live in?

The Afghans had 20 years to put together a functioning government, and they failed to do so. Frankly, it was more time than the Germans needed, they had a functioning government in 7 years after we literally levelled the place. There were not a bunch of Nazis hiding in the Alps, waiting to seize power the moment we left. We weren't still fighting in Japan in 1965.

Part of the problem here is that Afghanistan has always been kind of a legal fiction. It's that Tribal buffer zone that sat between two now defunct empires (The British and the Russian), not an actual nationality.



Again, look how easily all those capitals fell... tells me that the Afghan "Army" hold on them wasn't that great.

But, yes, yes, we needed to spend 2 Trillion so Afghan girls could go to school, after the idiots we armed back in the 1980's told them they couldn't.

Here's a crazy idea. Let's stop sticking our dicks in the hornet's nest and complaining about getting stung.




Again, not really. They weren't engaging the Taliban. If you are fighting a 20 year war and only take 42K casualties, you aren't trying very hard. They had a 4-1 advantage on the Taliban and billions of dollars in advanced American equipment, and they folded like a cheap suit.

Now, here's the thing. We HAVE had examples of "successful" counter-insurgencies. Greece and Turkey in the 1950's, the Philippines in the 1960's, El Salvador in the 1980's come to mind. These involved actually having people who were willing to fight for their countries, even if their governments were a bit shit.

A bunch of guys collecting checks until we leave, and then they switch back to the other side was never a sound strategy.




The data is bullshit.



Sorry, man, "Slightly inconvenienced at the airport" is not the hostage crisis, no matter how much you want to pretend it is.

The 15,000 Americans over there are kind of idiots for not getting out months ago, when Trump essentially surrendered to the Taliban....




Okay, but they were unwilling to fight in 2021, that was the thing. They literally dropped their weapons. Oh, but that's Biden's fault.... no, really.

Here's the real problem. On Paper, Afghanistan had a 300,000 man Army with an additional 50,000 police. In reality, they had 20,000 man special operations force and all the rest were just collecting paychecks as long as the Americans were writing checks... that is when the Checks got to them and they werent being stolen by local commanders




Wow, repeating this mythology, are we? Are we also going to talk about how the Jews stabbed the Kaiser in the back in World War I?

The last year before Saigon fell, the US government gave them $700 million in military aid...(About 5 billion in today's dollars). We did not cut them off. They just stopped fighting.

And we apparently learned not a fucking thing from the experience....



Wow, is that all? Just 15 Billion and you to can continue the Forever War for another year! What you forget is the debilitating effect the Forever War had on the US Army. The same National Guard units being sent in over and over again, soldiers being hopped up on amphetamines to keep them alert. The army having to enlist sub-standard characters like Bowe Bergdahl, Bradley/Chelsea Manning and Nidal Hassan who had no business being in a uniform.

I had a coworker who was a marine in Afghanistan. He had to ask all of his neighbors not to set off fireworks on the Fourth of July because it might give him flashbacks...

But, no, no, Biden is a bastard for not continuing that shit for another 15 years.



Why would the terrorists need Afghanistan. 20 years of the Forever War have already given them much more fertile playgrounds in Libya, Iraq, Syria and Yemen.

The ugly truth was that Al Qaeda never liked being in Afghanistan... and most of them fled after we toppled the Taliban and set up shop in those other countries. Since Al Qaeda is a mostly Arab network, they were happy to go where other Arabs live and make their lives miserable.

STOP comparing Afghanistan to Germany and Japan. Afghanistan was the least developed country in 2001. Germany and Japan were two of the top developed countries in the world in the 1930s and each had been for nearly a century at that point. This is a dumb analogy, yet you keep repeating it. It has no bearing on the situation in Afghanistan and on what U.S. policy should be there.

The Afghan military lost the ability to effectively supply itself with food, ammo, fuel, make repairs, when Joe Biden pulled out the small NATO advise and assist force, because THAT IS WHAT NATO was doing for the Afghan military! No military in the world can survive without the basic logistics needed for extended combat. AGAIN, look at how the Afghan military performed from 2015-2020, with the NATO advise and Assist Force. The Afghan military defeated EVERY TALIBAN offensive from 2015-2020. There was only one provincial capital taken by the Taliban during that period of Time. Kunduz was taken for a few weeks in 2015 and for a few weeks in 2016. Both times, the Afghan military regrouped and went back into the city defeating the TALIBAN.

Oh, and the United States NEVER spent 2 trillion in Afghanistan, it was 1. 3 Trillion the majority of it for deployment of U.S. troops prior to 2015. A smaller fraction of the total was given to the Afghan government and Military and it did have good results and was moving the Afghan military and society in a positive direction. There are multiple metrics that prove that!


The 53,000 deaths suffered by the Afghan military/police force, took place from 2015 through 2020. During that time the Afghan military did 99% of the fighting and defeated EVERY Taliban offensive. EVERY ONE! That had setbacks in Kunduz provincial capital in 2015 and 2016, but only for a few weeks, and rapidly retook that provincial capital EACH TIME! No other provincial capital was every seriously threatened during that time, none of the 33 other provincial capitals, EVEN IN THE TALIBAN heartland of Kandahar and Helmand province.

The Afghan military did not fold until the United States withdrew its logistical support which was the only way the Afghan military had to sustain their troops in the field.

AGAIN, LOOK AT THE FACTS OF THE PAST SIX YEARS:

Afghanistan Total Districts and Provincial Capitals:
421 Districts
34 Provincial Capitals

November 28, 2017
Taliban controlled districts: 73
Taliban controlled Provincial Capitals: 0

April 13, 2021
Taliban controlled districts: 77
Taliban controlled Provincial Capitals: 0

April 14, 2021
BIDEN announces complete withdrawal of U.S. forces from Afghanistan by September 2021, regardless of conditions on the ground.

August 16, 2021
Taliban controlled districts: 405
Taliban controlled Provincial Capitals: 32

READ THE ABOVE! LEARN IT, KNOW IT! It explains why most everything you have stated about the Afghan military and U.S./NATO mission Afghanistan is wrong. It clearly shows what the AFGHAN military successfully did while they had the logistical backing of the small NATO force. It then shows why the AFGHAN military failed without that logistical support after April 14, 2021. NO military in the world can fight without resupply of ammo, fuel, food, and repair of equipment. The Afghan military did not have the means to do logistical support its own military yet and was reliant on the small NATO force for THAT!

Apples and Oranges with your comparisons with different time periods in different parts of the world. Your not dealing with a country like Afghanistan, and nearly always dealing with a government that was far more developed to begin with, facing a weaker insurgency.


I've provided factual data on numbers, provincial capitals, Afghan districts, years and which side controlled what and when. ITs not bullshit, its simply the facts, and calling it bullshit won't change that.

I never said the United States completely cut off the South Vietnamese military, but it reduced aid to the point that the South Vietnamese had severe shortages of ammo and fuel, and spare parts which crippled their military capacity. No military force is effective if it does not have the supplies to fight. YOU SOUND LIKE HITLER believing that the Germans at Stalingrad, surrounded and cut off could have just kept fighting. Its ignorant and absurd.

PLEASE spare me the bullshit Forever War mantra. That was not happening in Afghanistan from 2015 onward.

Lets look at the cost for the United States from 2015 onward versus the cost to Afghan military whom you foolishly attack and don't understand.


You can see the scale of Afghan military sacrifice in the numbers here:

Brookings Institution:


Year - Afghan military/police deaths from combat - U.S. military deaths from combat - Non-US/NATO deaths from combat

2015 - 7,000 - 11 - 1
2016 - 8,000 - 9 - 2
2017 - 8,000 - 11 - 2
2018 - 8,000 - 13 - 4
2019 - 10,900 - 18 - 2
2020 - 10,900 - 4 - 0


The United States only lost 66 troops to combat in Afghanistan the past 6 years while the Afghan military lost over 53,000!


The Congressional Afghanistan study group recommended in February keeping 5,000 U.S. troops on the ground in Afghanistan because that would be enough to continue that status quo of the past 6 years, protect the United States from terrorist forces within Afghanistan, and continue the process of development of the Afghan government, military and society. The troop deployment would only cost FIVE BILLION DOLLARS per year, LESS than 1% of what the United States spends annually on its entire DEFENSE BUDGET!


A Taliban controlled Afghanistan would allow Al Qaeda and ISIS a safer place to operate, a more hidden place to operate. With No U.S. troops on the ground, and support of the government power in the country, its a better place than Iraq, Syria, or any other place in the world to TRAIN, PLAN, FUND, and start terrorist operations. ISIS and Al Qaeda were crushed in both Syria and Iraq. The Governments in Syria and Iraq ARE HOSTILE to ISIS and Al Qaeda. THE TALIBAN ARE NOT hostile to Al Qaeda. Letting the Taliban take back Afghanistan is a GIFT TO Al Qaeda and ISIS!

WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD WANT TO GIVE THE TALIBAN BACK AFGHANISTAN AFTER WHAT HAPPENED ON 9/11!? Its a return to the failed policies of the 1990s which put Al Qaeda in a great position and destroyed so much innocent life.

 

[U2Edge]

IMHO JoeB131 nailed the debate.

U2Edge has no solution other than "endless war" in AFG wasting $52b a year and several NATO lives a year forever. Why? To keep a lid on AFG because their army is worthless. Let the AFGs live under the Taliban until the majority decides that's not how they want to live.

If the Afghan military were worthless, they would not have been able to hold back the Taliban in the years 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020.

The NATO force in Afghanistan was an ADVISE and ASSIST force. The direct combat mission had been ended in 2014, with the AFGHAN military replacing NATO forces in the field. The NATO force was keeping the Afghan military supplied.

I believe in fighting terrorism and protecting United States Security. These things were being accomplished in Afghanistan at a very low cost to NATO countries. Having troops on the ground, a friendly government in Kabul, was vital to having good intelligence on Al Qaeda, ISIS and the Taliban terrorist element. NO, ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND, CAN DEFEND HANDING AFGHANISTAN BACK TO THE TALIBAN, A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, AND CLAIM THAT IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO THE TERRORIST THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD. To lose a friendly government, military force, as well as a place for your own military to gather intelligence on terrorist groups in Afghanistan, is beyond foolish!

 

[JoeB131]

Again, LOOK AT THE FACTS of 2015-2020.

Here are the facts. The Afghan Quislings had a 4-1 advantage over the Taliban, and still hadn't managed to crush them even with all the superior American technology and support they were provided.

THE TALIBAN launched large offensives against various bases, districts and some provincial capitals in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 and they were all DEFEATED! They were defeated with a small deployment of NATO troops backing up a large Afghan military that was doing 99% of the fighting.

Jesus Christ, man, do you believe that? The reality was, the Taliban and Afghan forces had agreements not to fight each other... that's why they all gave up when we left.

The scam was awesome. One brother would go out to fight for the Taliban, the other would join the local military unit and collect a paycheck.

The United States and NATO were officially in a ADVISE AND ASSIST mission from 2015 onwards. Obama had ended NATO's combat mission back in 2014.

Um, yeah... and yet the Forever War continued.... Forever and ever and ever....

This endless WAR, forever War is a bunch of BULLSHIT! More U.S. troops were being killed in training accidents than being killed by hostile fire from the Taliban in Afghanistan.

They never should have been over there are all... particularly after Karzai stole the 2009 election and put a lie to the whole "We were bringing them democracy" shit.

We never fucking learn. We didn't learn this lesson 50 years ago in Vietnam, we didn't learn this lesson 100 years ago in the Philippines.

Your Titanic example does not fit, because there would be no sinking, no Iceberg had the United States and NATO continued to provide the support that the Afghan military and government at their stage of development still needed.

Yes, just another 20 years, and they'd have been competant.

ANOTHER THING! You seem to be ignorant of what it takes for a military force, any military force to effectively operate on the battlefield. They need rapid supply of food, ammo, medical aid, and repair of equipment. U.S. and NATO contractors were providing that KEY LOGISTICAL component, without which NO MILITARY in the world can effectively fight and would end up having to surrender.

Hey, guy, here's a picture of me in 1990.... When I was a Supply Sergeant in the United States Army. My sister brought her kids to visit me. (I miss having hair and being thin). My MOS was 76Y and I reached the rank of Staff Sergeant.

I've forgotten more about military logistics than you'll probably ever know.

STOP comparing Afghanistan to Germany and Japan. Afghanistan was the least developed country in 2001. Germany and Japan were two of the top developed countries in the world in the 1930s and each had been for nearly a century at that point. This is a dumb analogy, yet you keep repeating it. It has no bearing on the situation in Afghanistan and on what U.S. policy should be there.

Uh, Germany and Japan were reduced to Rubble after WWII. Germany was outright dismembered. yet they still managed to get their shit together in less than a decade.

The Afghan military lost the ability to effectively supply itself with food, ammo, fuel, make repairs, when Joe Biden pulled out the small NATO advise and assist force, because THAT IS WHAT NATO was doing for the Afghan military! No military in the world can survive without the basic logistics needed for extended combat. AGAIN, look at how the Afghan military performed from 2015-2020, with the NATO advise and Assist Force. The Afghan military defeated EVERY TALIBAN offensive from 2015-2020. There was only one provincial capital taken by the Taliban during that period of Time. Kunduz was taken for a few weeks in 2015 and for a few weeks in 2016. Both times, the Afghan military regrouped and went back into the city defeating the TALIBAN.

Again, I remember this kind of shit being said about Vietnam, about how the Vietcong were defeated in every engagement... Again, it's like people just never fucking learn.

The reason why Vietnam didn't turn into the Forever War was because when you draft an army to fight, eventually people actually start paying attention. The problem with the Forever War is that you rarely heard about it in the news after 2009 or so.

Oh, and the United States NEVER spent 2 trillion in Afghanistan, it was 1. 3 Trillion the majority of it for deployment of U.S. troops prior to 2015. A smaller fraction of the total was given to the Afghan government and Military and it did have good results and was moving the Afghan military and society in a positive direction. There are multiple metrics that prove that!

What good results? We spent 1.3 trillion and at the end of the day, we had an Afghan Army that dropped their weapons and ran despite having a 4-1 numerical advantage.

The 53,000 deaths suffered by the Afghan military/police force, took place from 2015 through 2020. During that time the Afghan military did 99% of the fighting and defeated EVERY Taliban offensive. EVERY ONE! That had setbacks in Kunduz provincial capital in 2015 and 2016, but only for a few weeks, and rapidly retook that provincial capital EACH TIME! No other provincial capital was every seriously threatened during that time, none of the 33 other provincial capitals, EVEN IN THE TALIBAN heartland of Kandahar and Helmand province.

I'm not sure what your fascination with provincial capitals are. Controlling a city doesn't make a lot of difference when you don't control the land around it, which they clearly didn't.

I never said the United States completely cut off the South Vietnamese military, but it reduced aid to the point that the South Vietnamese had severe shortages of ammo and fuel, and spare parts which crippled their military capacity. No military force is effective if it does not have the supplies to fight. YOU SOUND LIKE HITLER believing that the Germans at Stalingrad, surrounded and cut off could have just kept fighting. Its ignorant and absurd.

Actually the Germans at Stalingrad put up more of a fight than the ARVN's did... and the Afghan National Army makes the ARVN's look like heroes.

The Congressional Afghanistan study group recommended in February keeping 5,000 U.S. troops on the ground in Afghanistan because that would be enough to continue that status quo of the past 6 years, protect the United States from terrorist forces within Afghanistan, and continue the process of development of the Afghan government, military and society. The troop deployment would only cost FIVE BILLION DOLLARS per year, LESS than 1% of what the United States spends annually on its entire DEFENSE BUDGET!

Uh, huh... Let's continue the Forever War, because Haliburton was sucking in those big bucks.

Let's ignore the fact that the Forever War was destroying the Army as an institution. The same National Guard units being rotated in on multiple tours.... Enlistment standards being lowered to the point that some real mutants like Bowe Bergdahl and Chelsea Manning were being enlisted because they couldn't hit manpower goals.