Do gays choose to be gay? How can we refuse equal rights?

[Seawytch]

So pretty much like pedophilia or bestiality or any other perversion. Got it.
Any way, that is a side note to the discussion.
Gay men have excactly the same rights as straight men. So there is no discrimination. That's pretty much settled here.

No, nothing like those, but thanks for continually putting your ignorance on display. It only helps the side of marriage equality.

Let's see. We have an attraction that may be genetic or may be the result of life experiences. The results of acting on it are anti social and life denying. Many people have the attraction but fewer act on it.

Am I describing homosexuality or pedophilia?

Environment not "life experiences". When scientists talk about orientation being about environmental factors, they're talking about in the womb.

You also keep missing the consenting adult part. Why is that?

 

[Seawytch]

Yeah, sure, you keep telling yourself that, if it brings you any comfort...

What a relative handful of people will accede to, in public, when pressed, is vastly different than what they think in private, and how they react, when there are no social consequences in connection with the trend du jour, and the same goes for the vast, vast, vast numbers of their fellow travelers who were NOT polled...

If these pollsters would get off their asses, and out of the big cities, and into the vast untapped and un-polled realm of Middle America, they would, in all likelihood, come up with different numbers...

Ditto for stacking the deck with other demographics likely to prove favorable to their pre-determined desired outcome...

Pollsters do not always do such things, but they DO operate in that mode often enough to chalk-up plenty of criticism and for their results to be viewed with suspicion much of the time...

One can lie with statistics a dozen-ways-to-Sunday... especially when one controls the construction and content and sequencing of the questions... so much so, that, in the long run, polls don't matter a damn... and especially when the national media goes all orgasmic in support of the trend du jour.

In the long run, Nature, and Mankind, make their preferences operative.

Enjoy the run while it lasts, because it may not last as long as you think.

Laws can be overturned in a heartbeat.

Constitutions can be reinterpreted to support a position-reversal in a heartbeat as well, once an opposing viewpoint gains (or re-gains) poltical power.

Especially when a given situation gets out of hand.

As seems to be unfolding now before our eyes.

Feel free to continue pushing the envelope.

You are probably damaging yourselves far more than you are progressing, in the final analysis.

Or so it seems to this observer...

Fighting marriage equality is to be on the wrong side of history. All you have to do is look at the trends.

Whoops. Deflection. Must have won that argument.

Uh, it was exactly on topic. The trends are for, not against marriage equality. We always trend towards civil rights, the gay equality march has just freaked y'all out because its been so fast.

 

[sfcalifornia]

It has been admitted before, so face it ladies and gents, if government wasn't handing out premiums to married couples (tax breaks for married couples) and if government would get out of the business of directing how people handle their personal affairs (end of life decisions, insurance, etc), this whole marriage thing would be a non-issue. THAT is the crux of this entire "marriage equality" brouhaha. Homosexuals want to be able to do for their chosen partners what heterosexual couples can do for each other. It has nothing to do with love or Nature or reproduction.
It should be unnecessary to beg permission from some government agency to form a union with someone you care for. If you cared so much for your partner, you would give a flip whether you got "equal treatment" for a treasured relationship.

You get to work on that legislation. In the meantime, we'll keep fighting for equal access to legal, civil marriage.

So no couples get married for love or only the straight ones do?

You have equal access to marriage. You can marry anyone any other woman can marry. What more do you want? Ohyeah, you want special privileges.

Equal access to marriage is not the same as equal access to state and federal benefits.

Gay people don't want special privileges, they want the same benefits.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Fighting marriage equality is to be on the wrong side of history. All you have to do is look at the trends..."

1. my observations concerning the validity of polls remains

2. I have more respect for Men who take a stand for what they believe is right, than I do for those who blow like a reed in the wind, and slavishly follow 'trends'.

 

[The Rabbi]

You get to work on that legislation. In the meantime, we'll keep fighting for equal access to legal, civil marriage.

So no couples get married for love or only the straight ones do?

You have equal access to marriage. You can marry anyone any other woman can marry. What more do you want? Ohyeah, you want special privileges.

Equal access to marriage is not the same as equal access to state and federal benefits.

Gay people don't want special privileges, they want the same benefits.

They can have the same benefits. Any gay man who marries a woman is considered married, just like any straight man. Ditto any straight man who marries another straight man is not considered married by the state.
I fail to see any discrimination here.

 

[The Rabbi]

No, nothing like those, but thanks for continually putting your ignorance on display. It only helps the side of marriage equality.

Let's see. We have an attraction that may be genetic or may be the result of life experiences. The results of acting on it are anti social and life denying. Many people have the attraction but fewer act on it.

Am I describing homosexuality or pedophilia?

Environment not "life experiences". When scientists talk about orientation being about environmental factors, they're talking about in the womb.

You also keep missing the consenting adult part. Why is that?

In Europe "consenting' can be 14. It is an arbitrary number.
Why do you not answer the question as to whetehr I am describing homosexuality or pedophilia?

 

[sfcalifornia]

So pretty much like pedophilia or bestiality or any other perversion. Got it.
Any way, that is a side note to the discussion.
Gay men have excactly the same rights as straight men. So there is no discrimination. That's pretty much settled here.

No, nothing like those, but thanks for continually putting your ignorance on display. It only helps the side of marriage equality.

Let's see. We have an attraction that may be genetic or may be the result of life experiences. The results of acting on it are anti social and life denying. Many people have the attraction but fewer act on it.

Am I describing homosexuality or pedophilia?

Life denying? What a stupid statement.

And the anti-social perspective of homosexuality is rapidly diminishing because more and more people realize how stupid that is too.

 

[The Rabbi]

No, nothing like those, but thanks for continually putting your ignorance on display. It only helps the side of marriage equality.

Let's see. We have an attraction that may be genetic or may be the result of life experiences. The results of acting on it are anti social and life denying. Many people have the attraction but fewer act on it.

Am I describing homosexuality or pedophilia?

Life denying? What a stupid statement.

And the anti-social perspective of homosexuality is rapidly diminishing because more and more people realize how stupid that is too.

So your response is "that's stupid." And I'm supposed to take that seriously?

 

[sfcalifornia]

You have equal access to marriage. You can marry anyone any other woman can marry. What more do you want? Ohyeah, you want special privileges.

Equal access to marriage is not the same as equal access to state and federal benefits.

Gay people don't want special privileges, they want the same benefits.

They can have the same benefits. Any gay man who marries a woman is considered married, just like any straight man. Ditto any straight man who marries another straight man is not considered married by the state.
I fail to see any discrimination here.

Why would a gay man want to marry a woman??

Your argument fails right from the start.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I already provided you with the Gallup polls that show your view to be the one in the minority.

Spelling errors courtesy of auto-correct

Yeah, sure, you keep telling yourself that, if it brings you any comfort...

What a relative handful of people will accede to, in public, when pressed, is vastly different than what they think in private, and how they react, when there are no social consequences in connection with the trend du jour, and the same goes for the vast, vast, vast numbers of their fellow travelers who were NOT polled...

If these pollsters would get off their asses, and out of the big cities, and into the vast untapped and un-polled realm of Middle America, they would, in all likelihood, come up with different numbers...

Ditto for stacking the deck with other demographics likely to prove favorable to their pre-determined desired outcome...

Pollsters do not always do such things, but they DO operate in that mode often enough to chalk-up plenty of criticism and for their results to be viewed with suspicion much of the time...

One can lie with statistics a dozen-ways-to-Sunday... especially when one controls the construction and content and sequencing of the questions... so much so, that, in the long run, polls don't matter a damn... and especially when the national media goes all orgasmic in support of the trend du jour.

In the long run, Nature, and Mankind, make their preferences operative.

Enjoy the run while it lasts, because it may not last as long as you think.

Laws can be overturned in a heartbeat.

Constitutions can be reinterpreted to support a position-reversal in a heartbeat as well, once an opposing viewpoint gains (or re-gains) poltical power.

Especially when a given situation gets out of hand.

As seems to be unfolding now before our eyes.

Feel free to continue pushing the envelope.

You are probably damaging yourselves far more than you are progressing, in the final analysis.

Or so it seems to this observer...

Fighting marriage equality is to be on the wrong side of history. All you have to do is look at the trends.

You force the issue and many of the fence sitters who do not like the feeling of being forced to support some thing fall off the fence on the side of those who do not support your fucked up sick perverted lifestyle.

 

[gallantwarrior]

It has been admitted before, so face it ladies and gents, if government wasn't handing out premiums to married couples (tax breaks for married couples) and if government would get out of the business of directing how people handle their personal affairs (end of life decisions, insurance, etc), this whole marriage thing would be a non-issue. THAT is the crux of this entire "marriage equality" brouhaha. Homosexuals want to be able to do for their chosen partners what heterosexual couples can do for each other. It has nothing to do with love or Nature or reproduction.
It should be unnecessary to beg permission from some government agency to form a union with someone you care for. If you cared so much for your partner, you would give a flip whether you got "equal treatment" for a treasured relationship.

That's all well and good, but we're dealing with inclinations, behaviors and practices which much of the world, both historically and at-present, deem filthy and unclean and unholy and sinful and unnatural and perverse and repugnant, and responsible in part for the slide into degeneracy and loss of martial vigor which contributed greatly to the downfall of a variety of polities and kingdoms , and which has been deemed detrimental to society for many thousands of years. It's a little difficult to ignore that 10,000-pound elephant in the room when you're talking about extending equal marriage rights to such (historically perceived) dangerous and undesirable behaviors.

I'm just pointing out that they've come crawling out of their closets, demanding equal treatment of their unnatural unions based strictly on the monetary benefits that can be gleaned. In their quest to coerce or convince the rest of us they have determined that what they are doing is as natural and normal as heterosexual unions. One of the techniques being used is to popularize their behavior, to make it stylish. Hence a sudden increase in young adults and teenagers "outing" themselves.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Why use Downs, Fishy, and not red hair or being left handed? (It a rhetorical question, BTW. I already know the answer)

Giving gays and lesbians equal access to civil marriage "forces" nothing on you and denying equal access is discriminatory. If I am prevented from marrying the consenting adult of my choice, that isn't equality, Fishy.

Oh and Fishy, it's a life, not a "lifestyle".


Spelling errors courtesy of auto-correct

Having red hair or being left-handed are not genetic abnormalities. If, as you claim, homosexuality is a genetic trait, it is by far best compared with other genetic traits that signal a defect that prevents the individual from functioning naturally.

I never made the claim that sexual orientation is a genetic trait. I said people do not choose their orientation.

If it isn't genetic, and it isn't chosen, just how the hell does it happen? Oh, right...god made you that way.

 

[sfcalifornia]

Let's see. We have an attraction that may be genetic or may be the result of life experiences. The results of acting on it are anti social and life denying. Many people have the attraction but fewer act on it.

Am I describing homosexuality or pedophilia?

Life denying? What a stupid statement.

And the anti-social perspective of homosexuality is rapidly diminishing because more and more people realize how stupid that is too.

So your response is "that's stupid." And I'm supposed to take that seriously?

lol

When did you think anyone took you seriously?

To say gay couples deny life is also saying straight couples who don't have children are also denying life. That's a pretty stupid argument against homosexuality.

 

[Seawytch]

"...Fighting marriage equality is to be on the wrong side of history. All you have to do is look at the trends..."

1. my observations concerning the validity of polls remains

2. I have more respect for Men who take a stand for what they believe is right, than I do for those who blow like a reed in the wind, and slavishly follow 'trends'.

No, actually they don't.

What is right is equal protection under the law.

 

[Seawytch]

Having red hair or being left-handed are not genetic abnormalities. If, as you claim, homosexuality is a genetic trait, it is by far best compared with other genetic traits that signal a defect that prevents the individual from functioning naturally.

I never made the claim that sexual orientation is a genetic trait. I said people do not choose their orientation.

If it isn't genetic, and it isn't chosen, just how the hell does it happen? Oh, right...god made you that way.

I said it is not a genetic trait, not that genetics are not involved.

I don't believe in god. I was simply born with a greater attraction to women than to men.

 

[gallantwarrior]

You get to work on that legislation. In the meantime, we'll keep fighting for equal access to legal, civil marriage.

So no couples get married for love or only the straight ones do?

You have equal access to marriage. You can marry anyone any other woman can marry. What more do you want? Ohyeah, you want special privileges.

Equal access to marriage is not the same as equal access to state and federal benefits.

Gay people don't want special privileges, they want the same benefits.

What did I say? They want to be able to dip into the same cookie jar as real married couples. Rather than lobby for real equality, they find it expedient to hijack marriage, a concept long clearly defined and held sacred by most peoples.

 

[Seawytch]

Let's see. We have an attraction that may be genetic or may be the result of life experiences. The results of acting on it are anti social and life denying. Many people have the attraction but fewer act on it.

Am I describing homosexuality or pedophilia?

Environment not "life experiences". When scientists talk about orientation being about environmental factors, they're talking about in the womb.

You also keep missing the consenting adult part. Why is that?

In Europe "consenting' can be 14. It is an arbitrary number.
Why do you not answer the question as to whetehr I am describing homosexuality or pedophilia?

Yes, it has been an arbitrary number. Still is. Tell me, have age of consent laws gone up or down in the US? I'm for a Federal standard of no less than 18 with "Romeo and Juliet" (or Romeo and Romeo/Juliet and Juliet) carve outs. You?

 

[gallantwarrior]

Environment not "life experiences". When scientists talk about orientation being about environmental factors, they're talking about in the womb.

You also keep missing the consenting adult part. Why is that?

In Europe "consenting' can be 14. It is an arbitrary number.
Why do you not answer the question as to whetehr I am describing homosexuality or pedophilia?

Yes, it has been an arbitrary number. Still is. Tell me, have age of consent laws gone up or down in the US? I'm for a Federal standard of no less than 18 with "Romeo and Juliet" carve outs. You?

Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed?

 

[Seawytch]

You have equal access to marriage. You can marry anyone any other woman can marry. What more do you want? Ohyeah, you want special privileges.

Equal access to marriage is not the same as equal access to state and federal benefits.

Gay people don't want special privileges, they want the same benefits.

What did I say? They want to be able to dip into the same cookie jar as real married couples. Rather than lobby for real equality, they find it expedient to hijack marriage, a concept long clearly defined and held sacred by most peoples.

Oh, so instead of asking for access to the pool, we should be the ones trying to fill it in with concrete? No, you go ahead...get to work on that legislation. I'm gonna swim in the pool.

 

[Seawytch]

In Europe "consenting' can be 14. It is an arbitrary number.
Why do you not answer the question as to whetehr I am describing homosexuality or pedophilia?

Yes, it has been an arbitrary number. Still is. Tell me, have age of consent laws gone up or down in the US? I'm for a Federal standard of no less than 18 with "Romeo and Juliet" carve outs. You?

Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed?

No, that's the exact opposite of what I said. The age of consent has historically gone up, not down, in the US.