Zone1 Do Christians Proselytize out of “Love” - or Arrogance?

[irosie91]

Guys who went over in the 1940s and early 50s did a lot of outreach because of the agreement between ibn Saud and ARAMCO.. and they all published.

oh----they published?-----then you are not up to date in Saudi medical publications---BTW the HIV virus was not KNOWN in the 1940s and 50s.
The very first article was in 1981 (by my
memory) entitled ACQUIRED COMBINED
SYSTEMS IMMUNO DEFICIENCY----NEJM

I do not recall the date of the ANNALS OF SAUDI ARABIA medicine article that I read----maybe circa 1995 ???

 

[Lisa558]

I knew almost all the early doctors in Arabia.

Exactly how old ARE you?!

 

[buttercup]

I’ve tried to break your response down into sections, but the formatting isn’t working right, so I’ll just have to capture the basics below:

1. I’m sorry you don’t like the way I framed my question, but of course it’s coming from my experience with Evangelical Christians who have harassed me, warned me that G-d is angry with Jews and will punish us if we don’t convert, send me sermons from their church in which the pastor vilifies Jews - and then tell me they are doing all that out of “love.” It sure doesn’t feel that way. It comes across as blatant disapproval of my religion, which is closely aligned with my self-identity.

2. I’m glad you agree that harassing or otherwise being overly aggressive is not what Jesus would have wanted, and that Christians who behave that way are not following Jesus’ teachings.

3. You said “IF” Jesus is G-d in the flesh, then it’s not arrogant for him (I’m assuming you mean the Christian) to simply state the truth. But that’s a big IF. I know you believe he is. But the people you are trying to convert do NOT believe that, and your holding yourself up as the arbiter of the truth, and the Jew as the “lost soul“ who is wrong, then yes, it is arrogant.

Finally, you said it doesn’t matter what we believe to be the truth, because the truth is the truth regardless of who believes it. But then, who is to determine the truth? The Christian, who believes that Jesus is G-d’s son, or the who believes he is not? The arrogance comes in with implicit belief that the Christian is right, and thinking that way, feels comfortable to “straighten out” all those who believe differently.

I get that your religion commands you to “spread the news.” But you must know that every Jew over the age of 5 knows that Christians believe Jesus is G-d’s son. So you’re not sharing anything with us that we don’t already know, and obviously we have decided to be loyal to our Jewish heritage, traditions, laws, and beliefs.

So, the way I see it is if you feel compelled to tell Jews that Jesus is the way to G-d, say it once to meet your commandment, and then drop it. It seems we agree on that point.

Thanks for your reply. I'm going to get back to this later, because I'm actually in the middle of something right now, and I don't want to give you a rushed reply. But I'll respond later point by point. Thanks again.

 

[irosie91]

You completely missed the point. I'll repeat it. Anyone who forces others to convert, or acts in a rude or violent way is going directly against the teachings of Jesus. Jesus Himself said that people who claim to follow Him but whose hearts are far from Him and go against God's will and are not His people. They are just people who take on the name of christian, yet act in a way that is in direct opposition to God's will.

So let me ask you again. What did I say that was untrue?

lots-----you, simply, discarded the REAL HISTORY and ramifications of proselytizing
efforts over the past almost 2000 years and
COUNTING As to what JESUS SAID-----it is heresay. Luke did not speak aramaic or hebrew and Matthew is an UNKNOWN. Did you know
that in canon and Justinian law---if an infant
was baptized AGAINST THE WILL OF ITS PARENTS ---then it was "legally" a christian.
Muslims aped that interesting idea

 

[Lisa558]

Thanks for your reply. I'm going to get back to this later, because I'm actually in the middle of something right now, and I don't want to give you a rushed reply. But I'll respond later point by point. Thanks again.

You’re welcome. I was almost going to skip your post because I was struggling with the formatting, but you gave such a detailed and polite response that I didn’t want to overlook it. I will look for your reply later.

 

[irosie91]

Exactly how old ARE you?!

AL ZAHRAWI is an early arabic doctor----
about 1000 years ago

 

[Lisa558]

lots-----you, simply, discarded the REAL HISTORY and ramifications of proselytizing
efforts over the past almost 2000 years and
COUNTING As to what JESUS SAID-----it is heresay. Luke did not speak aramaic or hebrew and Matthew is an UNKNOWN. Did you know
that in canon and Justinian law---if an infant
was baptized AGAINST THE WILL OF ITS PARENTS ---then it was "legally" a christian.
Muslims aped that interesting idea

That’s actually at the root of this disconnect. Christians are using as their “proof” that Jesus said this, or said that, and I know they believe it. But how do we know that he really said any, of most, or some of what is reported in the gospels? ESPECIALLY John - the one that was written long afterward and reeks of hostility toward Jews.

 

[Lisa558]

AL ZAHRAWI is an early arabic doctor----
about 1000 years ago

Wow, Surada must be mummified!

 

[irosie91]

Wow, Surada must be mummified!

well,,,,,,,, IMO----she does not come up with
any NEW MATERIAL

 

[Coyote]

Well, we’ve finally found some common ground. Hallelujah!

I‘ve said repeatedly throughout the thread that if a Christian gently broaches the subject, that‘s one thing, and then backs off If there is no interest. But it‘s when they keep after you to take classes at their Christian Bible Church (which means learn the NT), attend services where the preacher warns about what happens to Jews in the afterlife, send emails with NT messages, etc., etc., it is obvious that such actions are both arrogant and disrespectful.

I am also glad you too believe there is more than one path to G-d. I can’t imagine a G-d so narrowly focused that only the minority who are Christians will get to Heaven, even though there are good, righteous people of all religions. Anyway, this is what Judaism teaches.

Totally agree! I’ve always viewed it as something like the tale of the blind man and the elephant. Each of us (each religon) can discern a small part of that which is God, never able to comprehend the whole, which is beyond our ability to comprehend. Each is convinced that their interpretation is the only valid one.

 

[SweetSue92]

I’ve tried to break your response down into sections, but the formatting isn’t working right, so I’ll just have to capture the basics below:

1. I’m sorry you don’t like the way I framed my question, but of course it’s coming from my experience with Evangelical Christians who have harassed me, warned me that G-d is angry with Jews and will punish us if we don’t convert, send me sermons from their church in which the pastor vilifies Jews - and then tell me they are doing all that out of “love.” It sure doesn’t feel that way. It comes across as blatant disapproval of my religion, which is closely aligned with my self-identity.

2. I’m glad you agree that harassing or otherwise being overly aggressive is not what Jesus would have wanted, and that Christians who behave that way are not following Jesus’ teachings.

3. You said “IF” Jesus is G-d in the flesh, then it’s not arrogant for him (I’m assuming you mean the Christian) to simply state the truth. But that’s a big IF. I know you believe he is. But the people you are trying to convert do NOT believe that, and your holding yourself up as the arbiter of the truth, and the Jew as the “lost soul“ who is wrong, then yes, it is arrogant.

Finally, you said it doesn’t matter what we believe to be the truth, because the truth is the truth regardless of who believes it. But then, who is to determine the truth? The Christian, who believes that Jesus is G-d’s son, or the Jew who believes he is not? The arrogance comes in with implicit belief that the Christian is right, and thinking that way, feels comfortable to “straighten out” all those who believe differently.

I get that your religion commands you to “spread the news.” But you must know that every Jew over the age of 5 knows that Christians believe Jesus is G-d’s son. So you’re not sharing anything with us that we don’t already know, and obviously we have decided to be loyal to our Jewish heritage, traditions, laws, and beliefs.

So, the way I see it is if you feel compelled to tell Jews that Jesus is the way to G-d, say it once to meet your commandment, and then drop it. It seems we agree on that point.

Exactly

 

[JustAGuy1]

I knew almost all the early doctors in Arabia.

Sure you did, you think you know everything.

 

[surada]

AL ZAHRAWI is an early arabic doctor----
about 1000 years ago

American doctors in the late 1940s and 50s.

 

[SweetSue92]

American doctors in the late 1940s and 50s.

Okay. My parents are 77. They were born in 1945. They remember the 50s, but they were kids.

Are you older than 77?

 

[SweetSue92]

Totally agree! I’ve always viewed it as something like the tale of the blind man and the elephant. Each of us (each religon) can discern a small part of that which is God, never able to comprehend the whole, which is beyond our ability to comprehend. Each is convinced that their interpretation is the only valid one.

....which is your interpretation. Which you are convinced is valid.

 

[surada]

Okay. My parents are 77. They were born in 1945. They remember the 50s, but they were kids.

Are you older than 77?

I told you these Aramco doctors published.

http://texts.cdlib.org/view?docId=kt8m3nb5g6&doc.view=entire_text

 

[GMCGeneral]

That doesn’t mean he wanted to convert people to Christianity, which did not exist during his lifetime. He wanted to have people follow his teachings, which were primarily Jewish values and lessons.

No, it IS to lead people to the Cross for the forgiveness of their sins. That was the entire purpose of the animal sacrifices in the first place. It was a foreshadowing of the coming Lamb of G-d. You cannot earn heaven, no matter how much you try to be a "good" person, without Yeshua's completed work on the Cross and His resurrection, everyone who does not trust Him for their salvation has already been judged guilty.

 

[surada]

No, it IS to lead people to the Cross for the forgiveness of their sins. That was the entire purpose of the animal sacrifices in the first place. It was a foreshadowing of the coming Lamb of G-d. You cannot earn heaven, no matter how much you try to be a "good" person, without Yeshua's completed work on the Cross and His resurrection, everyone who does not trust Him for their salvation has already been judged guilty.

Are you Jewish?

 

[irosie91]

American doctors in the late 1940s and 50s.

SO? the AIDS virus had not been identified
until the 1980s. ALSO---saudi arabia consistently DENIED the existence of HIV
in their "HOLY LAND"-----that idiocy became
non viable in the 1990s so they blamed it
all on "foreign workers. In conferences even
the muslim docs LAUGHED.

 

[irosie91]

Okay. My parents are 77. They were born in 1945. They remember the 50s, but they were kids.

Are you older than 77?

I remember the 50s well----I am only a bit
younger than 77. In 1955 the dodgers and
the yankees played the World Series ------feel
free to ask questions. sign me "erstwhile
bobby sox kid"