Discipline

[AZrailwhale]

Yes, I do.

If you demand discipline, how come you complain that your students are disruptive? Either you have discipline or you don't. There is no middle ground.

 

[LuckyDuck01!]

I came across this article on one of the educators feeds I constantly get in my inbox. Bear in mind these are NOT my words or my opinion, though I do agree with some of it to some degree. The author is obviously a drama queen feeling self-righteous. It may come across as "touchy feely" to those with no experience in a highly challenging urban school environment. Again, not my words.



"I’m fed up. Honestly, I’ve had it with the old-school crowd on X preaching the same tired nonsense about “removing disruptive kids” and keeping the “good kids” away from them.

Just this week, I read posts that made me want to throw my coffee across the room:





and






and






This is old-school education thinking at its worst—segregating kids, labeling them as “bad,” and pretending academics can thrive in a vacuum without addressing emotional needs. And I’m done being polite about it.

---

​

Old-School Discipline Hurts Everyone​

Isolating students doesn’t just fail the so-called “disruptive” kids—it fails every child in the classroom.

Here’s why:

1. It destroys belonging.
   When we remove students, we tell them they don’t belong. And when kids don’t feel like they belong, they stop caring. Period. They stop caring about school, about relationships, about themselves. I’ve seen this play out hundreds of times—kids labeled as “behavior problems” eventually wear that label like a badge. And once that happens, good luck getting them to re-engage.
2. It fuels resentment in the entire classroom.
   Students notice when peers are kicked out or consistently separated. It creates an “us vs. them” mentality. The so-called “good kids” begin to believe that anyone who struggles is a problem to get rid of, not a person to understand. That’s not education—that’s social conditioning to dehumanize people who are different.
3. It teaches nothing about empathy or responsibility.
   The whole point of being in a classroom community is to learn how to live in a community. You don’t learn empathy by sitting only with kids who never push your buttons. You don’t learn responsibility by having “the troublemakers” removed. You learn those things by navigating relationships with people who are different from you—who frustrate you, challenge you, and make you grow.
4. It puts academics over humanity.
   I keep seeing these old-school posts saying, “We need to focus on academics.” Let me ask you this: what kid learns well when they feel like they don’t belong? Show me the research that proves anxiety, isolation, and shame are the keys to higher test scores. Spoiler: it doesn’t exist.
5. It creates adults who quit when things get tough.
   If we teach kids that you just “remove” difficult people from your life, we’re setting them up for failure in the real world. Life doesn’t work that way. In jobs, relationships, and communities, you can’t just exile people who annoy you. Schools are supposed to prepare kids for life, not teach them to avoid it.

---

​

I Used to Be One of Those Teachers​

I get it—I really do. I used to be one of those teachers who thought removing “problem kids” was the answer. Early in my career, I believed that getting rid of disruptions would make my class run smoothly.

And yes, for a day or two, it was quiet. But you know what happened next? Those same kids came back angrier, more frustrated, and more determined to push back. And the rest of the class?

They learned that if you mess up enough, you just get kicked out. No growth. No learning. Just punishment.

It took me years to realize that the real work isn’t in removing students; it’s in creating a classroom culture that makes removal unnecessary in the first place."

I’m Done Watching Teachers Give Up on Kids

Fed up with teachers giving up on kids? Discover why removing “disruptive” students fails everyone—and how building classroom community changes everything.

www.10publications.com

As a "REALLY" old school parent. We shall disagree. Here's something the "teachers," not being trained psychologists, don't understand. The female brain's pre-frontal cortex doesn't completely mature until about 18 years of age. The male's pre-frontal cortex doesn't completely mature until about 25 years of age. The pre-frontal cortex is responsible for higher reasoning (decision making, emotional regulation, personality expression and executive functions). First, let's take your listed items: This is one of the reasons car rental companies restrict customers under 25 from renting cars.
Let's take your items one by one (ignoring those students with mental issues):
1. Destroys the sense of belonging. I call B.S. on that. The anti-social, disruptive and threatening behavior by some students and any result of separating them from the serious students, doesn't destroy their "sense of belonging," because they make it clear through their behavior and words, that they absolutely "do not" want to belong in that classroom. They consider what they are being taught as meaningless to them, even racist. They chastise some serious students that strive to succeed as "trying to be white." The problem though is less the fault of an individual student than it is of the culture that he or she grows up in. Many minority students have overcome adverse situations and managed to succeed in school by simply studying hard and paying attention. The disruptive ones want the class in its entirety to focus on their immature antics to see if they will join in.
2. It fuels resentment in the entire classroom. The students who only want to learn and succeed, do indeed develop a sense of resentment against the anti-social, disruptive students and rightfully so. Those same students don't like the bad behavior of the disruptive students. Because of this the anti-social, disruptive students must not be allowed to just continue such behavior, for the sake of the positive students.
3. It teaches nothing about empathy or responsibility. Removing a disruptive student does demonstrate what happens when you are held responsible for your actions, in this case, removal from the class and a better functioning class. Teachers have a little less than one hour in each class to get lessons into students. That is not a long time. Disruptive anti-social behavior reduces the time the teacher can spend educating the student. Because of this, the teacher can't sit around coddling individual students who misbehave, that is where a school counselor should be contacted, and the student turned over to him or her.
4. It puts academics over humanity. Humanity is where your home and social life come in, not the classroom. The classroom is about academics, which it should be. The whole purpose of going to school is to learn mathematics, grammar/language, science, history, biology, some sports and in the higher grades, electrical, metals, wood, and automotive shops and a junior/senior prom tossed in for a bit of a social experience. That's all you have in your one-hour classes. No time for tantrums, violence and other crap.
5. The only ones who quit are the ones that did not want to be there in the first place. They consider school a waste of their time and prefer to hang out with similar anti-social kids and the hard studying kids, are glad to get rid of them so that they can focus.
Now, why did I succeed in my goals instead of becoming a violent anti-social piece of crap? Parents! I had an old man who clobbered me when I caused problems and acted out and THAT straightened me out. Many of these anti-social disruptive kids don't come from two parent households and the one in the household tends to be the mother who works two jobs to keep the roof over their head and food on the table, and she doesn't have time to know where her kid is and what he's doing.
Add a stable father into the environment and you get a two-parent household in which they can both work on him. His behavior depends on their involvement.

 

[Unkotare]

If you demand discipline, how come you complain that your students are disruptive? ...

Where do you see complaining? It's the job. Do you think you just post "DISCIPLINE" on the smart board once and no one ever behaves badly?

 

[Unkotare]

...Either you have discipline [sic] or you don't. There is no middle ground.

Yeah, there is. I know you hate it when I say you don't know what you're talking about, but you clearly don't. Kids aren't robots. They have good days, and they have bad days. "Disrupting" can mean chatting too much with a friend, telling an inappropriate joke from time to time, or getting in another student's face looking for a fight. It's not all the same and it's not all the time. If you expelled every student who ever did the slightest thing out of line, the school would be empty in a week and the alternative school would be bursting at the seams. "Discipline" isn't an excuse for being lazy. Students deserve more than that. If you ever taught one class for one day, you'd understand that.

 

[Unkotare]

... Here's something the "teachers," not being trained psychologists, don't understand. The female brain's pre-frontal cortex doesn't completely mature until about 18 years of age. The male's pre-frontal cortex doesn't completely mature until about 25 years of age. The pre-frontal cortex is responsible for higher reasoning (decision making, emotional regulation, personality expression and executive functions). First, let's take your listed items: This is one of the reasons car rental companies restrict customers under 25 from renting cars.
...

That's common knowledge.

 

[Unkotare]

That's common knowledge.

As a "REALLY" old school parent. We shall disagree. Here's something the "teachers," not being trained psychologists, don't understand. The female brain's pre-frontal cortex doesn't completely mature until about 18 years of age. The male's pre-frontal cortex doesn't completely mature until about 25 years of age. The pre-frontal cortex is responsible for higher reasoning (decision making, emotional regulation, personality expression and executive functions). First, let's take your listed items: This is one of the reasons car rental companies restrict customers under 25 from renting cars.
Let's take your items one by one (ignoring those students with mental issues):
1. Destroys the sense of belonging. I call B.S. on that. The anti-social, disruptive and threatening behavior by some students and any result of separating them from the serious students, doesn't destroy their "sense of belonging," because they make it clear through their behavior and words, that they absolutely "do not" want to belong in that classroom. They consider what they are being taught as meaningless to them, even racist. They chastise some serious students that strive to succeed as "trying to be white." The problem though is less the fault of an individual student than it is of the culture that he or she grows up in. Many minority students have overcome adverse situations and managed to succeed in school by simply studying hard and paying attention. The disruptive ones want the class in its entirety to focus on their immature antics to see if they will join in.
2. It fuels resentment in the entire classroom. The students who only want to learn and succeed, do indeed develop a sense of resentment against the anti-social, disruptive students and rightfully so. Those same students don't like the bad behavior of the disruptive students. Because of this the anti-social, disruptive students must not be allowed to just continue such behavior, for the sake of the positive students.
3. It teaches nothing about empathy or responsibility. Removing a disruptive student does demonstrate what happens when you are held responsible for your actions, in this case, removal from the class and a better functioning class. Teachers have a little less than one hour in each class to get lessons into students. That is not a long time. Disruptive anti-social behavior reduces the time the teacher can spend educating the student. Because of this, the teacher can't sit around coddling individual students who misbehave, that is where a school counselor should be contacted, and the student turned over to him or her.
4. It puts academics over humanity. Humanity is where your home and social life come in, not the classroom. The classroom is about academics, which it should be. The whole purpose of going to school is to learn mathematics, grammar/language, science, history, biology, some sports and in the higher grades, electrical, metals, wood, and automotive shops and a junior/senior prom tossed in for a bit of a social experience. That's all you have in your one-hour classes. No time for tantrums, violence and other crap.
5. The only ones who quit are the ones that did not want to be there in the first place. They consider school a waste of their time and prefer to hang out with similar anti-social kids and the hard studying kids, are glad to get rid of them so that they can focus.
Now, why did I succeed in my goals instead of becoming a violent anti-social piece of crap? Parents! I had an old man who clobbered me when I caused problems and acted out and THAT straightened me out. Many of these anti-social disruptive kids don't come from two parent households and the one in the household tends to be the mother who works two jobs to keep the roof over their head and food on the table, and she doesn't have time to know where her kid is and what he's doing.
Add a stable father into the environment and you get a two-parent household in which they can both work on him. His behavior depends on their involvement.

Did you also miss the part where I very clearly said "these are not my words or my opinion"? What the ****? Can nobody read here?

 

[Unkotare]

... Many of these anti-social disruptive kids don't come from two parent households and the one in the household tends to be the mother who works two jobs to keep the roof over their head and food on the table, and she doesn't have time to know where her kid is and what he's doing.
Add a stable father into the environment and you get a two-parent household in which they can both work on him. His behavior depends on their involvement.

And? Do you expect the schools to set up arranged marriages for all single mothers (or fathers)? Do you expect teachers to give up on students because they are stuck in shitty circumstances? How about ending all poverty in the nation with a magic wand?

 

[GMCGeneral]

And? Do you expect the schools to set up arranged marriages for all single mothers (or fathers)? Do you expect teachers to give up on students because they are stuck in shitty circumstances? How about ending all poverty in the nation with a magic wand?

I expect stricter behavioral and academic standards for students. Failure to comply, especially with discipline, will result in expulsion and placement in an alternative school. Is that clear enough for you. I'm sick of mollycoddling the problem children and attempts to "mainstream" them into society when it's been proven time and again to be a colossal failure. Do you remember Joe Clark when he purged all the troublemakers from Eastside HS in Paterson, NJ and not just the movie depiction in "Lean On Me".

 

[LuckyDuck01!]

And? Do you expect the schools to set up arranged marriages for all single mothers (or fathers)? Do you expect teachers to give up on students because they are stuck in shitty circumstances? How about ending all poverty in the nation with a magic wand?

The student's crappy home life isn't the problem for the teachers. Their sole purpose is to educate on the standard topics, so what's causing their hatred for learning is out of their realm and getting them out of the class so the well-behaved students can focus on learning, rather than on some idiots acting out in class.
Some kids with rich parents can be dicks as well. They feel entitled, thinking that they can get away with most anything.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Ahh the old "emotional problems" copout. There was a time.you got in trouble at school, that was nothing compared to the trouble that awaited for you at home.

Yes: remember, children are ALWAYS wrong. Adults are ALWAYS right. And if you're having a bad day, grab a kid and make the little brat SCREAM!

The Inferior and Pretentious English of College Graduates

Teachers should anticipate misunderstanding, or inability to get the whole lesson all at once, by telling students what not to do. For example, the lesson about "my friend and I" instead of "my friend and me" if it is the subject of the sentence. Give the examples of common mistakes, such as "They invited my friend and I."

People who make excuses for this pathetic fraud claim that "they are trying too hard." They're not trying at all, or else they wouldn't blurt out something they imagine "sounds educated."

What the **** are you babbling about now?

Educationists Know Nothing About Normal Motivation

The key difference, if truth could be told instead of sold, is that your students were paid while learning, and even more if they immediately got a promotion for being the best, such as the Marines' Honor Man in bootcamp becoming a PFC.

There are other ways of rewarding in grade school and high school. "Learning for its own sake" doesn't produce, and it often leads to idle curiosity and mind-candy.

Are you having a stroke?

 

[Unkotare]

... Failure to comply, especially with discipline, will result in expulsion and placement in an alternative school. ...

I've said several times that is what happens NOW. I have also mentioned several times that I worked for years in just such an alternative school. Is that clear enough for you?

Some of the people posting on this thread seem incapable of reading.

 

[Unkotare]

The student's crappy home life isn't the problem for the teachers. ...

It certainly becomes a problem for their teachers.

 

[Unkotare]

... than a guy with a masters degree.

I have a master's degree, btw.

 

[80zephyr]

I have a master's degree, btw.

But it is different then his, right?

 

[Unkotare]

But it is different then his, right?

I assume so. I also have over 30 years of teaching experience.

 

[Unkotare]

If you demand discipline, how come you complain that your students are disruptive? Either you have discipline or you don't. There is no middle ground.

It's mostly middle ground. Go give it a try some time.

 

[80zephyr]

It's mostly middle ground. Go give it a try some time.

If there is, the nuns teaching me never hears about it.