Did you Support War in Iraq??

[NotfooledbyW]

Prove it.

There were three months of inspections with cooperation from SH until W made them stop so he could drop bombs and invade.

You wrote that SH ignored the UN ultimatum. You lied.

And on National TV - I saw it. Didn’t you? It is part of history. Its December 2002 - the first month of inspections:

SECRETARY POWELL: They have been cooperating with the inspectors and we'll see if that cooperation continues

SECRETARY POWELL: We've never said that war is inevitable. The President has always said that he is interested in a peaceful solution. resolution?

Interview on ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos

2001-2009.state.gov

 

[Correll]

now contrast that to a time when the question was, war with a WHITE and/or CHRISTIAN nation,

Iraq was the Bush Doctrine’s first and only shot. It was tested only on a Muslim Nation.

To claim that we have a lower standard for proof against a certain group, you are making a claim about it relative to other groups.


If you can't support your claim, then you should not be making your claim.


Accusing a group of being "bloodthirsty" and "wacist" is a pretty serious charge, in today's culture. You should not make such accusations without being sure, and/or having firm proof.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

ccusing a group of being "bloodthirsty" and "wacist" is a pretty serious charge, in today's culture.

When you continue to support a past war of aggression that was started in response to no threat when 200 UN inspectors were disarming Iraq peacefully knowing half a million Iraqi died - You are a blood thirsty warmonger.

 

[Correll]

ccusing a group of being "bloodthirsty" and "wacist" is a pretty serious charge, in today's culture.

When you continue to support a past war of aggression that was started in response to no threat when 200 UN inspectors were disarming Iraq peacefully knowing half a million Iraqi died - You are a blood thirsty warmonger.

Don't go wondering into the weeds here.

You've finally revealed a previously unstated premise, that sort of explains some of the shit you've been saying for a long time now,


specifically your assumption that "White" "Christians" who supported President Bush and later President Trump have a lower standard of proof for war, with Muslims.


You have refused to even try to support this assumption. You are standing by it, but you refuse to even try to support it.


It would be very difficult to prove, even if it were true, as wars are so complex and most White and/or Christian nations are fairly friendly to the US, at this time.


You could go back to WWI or WWII, or even the Cold War, but those were a long time ago, and it would be debatable if it would be fair to compare teh population of today with the population of 80 or longer, years ago.


If you can't support an assumption at all, then using it in a debate and insulting people over it, is not defensible.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

This was an appropriate standard for not supporting W’s intention to start a war in Iraq

( Church of God in Christ
In a Jan. 23 letter to President Bush, Church of God in Christ Presiding Bishop Gilbert E. Patterson and the denomination’s General Board expressed concern for the military — noting its significant numbers of ethnic minorities — and Iraqi civilians. They called for moral principles to be involved in determining the necessity for war. “Failure to satisfy these criteria renders the war aims, strategies and tactics, at a minimum, morally suspect and perhaps morally unacceptable in the eyes of the church universal and under the gaze of a just and holy God,” they wrote. )

Your standard is so low it dropped off the chart.

specifically your assumption that "White" "Christians" who supported President Bush and later President Trump have a lower standard of proof for war, with Muslims.

The right wing white evangelical Christians who supported the war - 8 out of 10 or so - certainly have a lower standard to support war and cause hundreds of thousands of Muslim deaths than the religious people cited below who demanded the highest standard be held “exhausting all peaceful means” before STARTING a FUCKING war.

I’m no anti/Christian bigot - I respect and applaud every single Christian with a high moral standard and opposition to our government STARTING a fucking war that dud not need to be started by a supposedly moral Nation of Christians and non-Christians an no religion at all.



Religious Groups Issue Statements on War with Iraq Compiled by Religion News Service, March 19, 2003

Religious Groups Issue Statements on War with Iraq

Compiled by Religion News Service, March 19, 2003 African Methodist Episcopal Church Bishop Adam J. Richardson, president of the Council of Bishops of the

www.pewforum.org

African Methodist Episcopal Church
Bishop Adam J. Richardson, president of the Council of Bishops of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, said in a March 12 interview that he was troubled by the support of possible war by some in Christianity’s conservative wing. “I think that, from my perspective the right-wing faction of Christianity is doing Christ a disservice by attempting to back their jaundiced views with Scripture, trivializing the Bible in public view and making a mockery of the best traditions of biblical scholarship.” He added his thoughts about the military: “I say emphatically that I am not against the military nor military personnel. I am an American. My passport says so. But I think the leadership is wrong. I’m praying for him (President Bush) and … the people of the Middle East.”

American Baptist Churches USA
The General Board of American Baptist Churches USA, meeting in November, issued a statement urging efforts toward peace and prayer for the United Nations, the Iraqi people, military personnel and others affected by the crisis. “Let us pray for the United Nations that it may continue to be a voice, a forum and instrument of peace in these days of terror and the prospect of war. We recommend that President Bush and Secretary of State Powell continue their efforts to work through the United Nations to resolve the issue of Iraqi disarmament through inspections and diplomacy,” the statement reads.

Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
The church’s Common Global Ministries Board, a joint venture with the United Church of Christ, said in a Feb. 10 statement: “God continues to speak to us a word of peace. Our churches believe that the church is called to participate in God’s message of reconciliation with all of creation. This calling is distinct from the pull of the world, but not removed from it. We are taught by Jesus, the Christ, that peace, harmony and justice are God’s vision for humanity.”

Church of England
Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, in a joint Feb. 20 statement with Catholic Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, reiterated his opposition to war. “The events of recent days show that doubts still persist about the moral legitimacy as well as the unpredictable humanitarian consequences of a war with Iraq.”

Church of God in Christ
In a Jan. 23 letter to President Bush, Church of God in Christ Presiding Bishop Gilbert E. Patterson and the denomination’s General Board expressed concern for the military — noting its significant numbers of ethnic minorities — and Iraqi civilians. They called for moral principles to be involved in determining the necessity for war. “Failure to satisfy these criteria renders the war aims, strategies and tactics, at a minimum, morally suspect and perhaps morally unacceptable in the eyes of the church universal and under the gaze of a just and holy God,” they wrote.

Conference of Major Superiors of Men (Catholic men’s religious orders)
In a joint letter with other group to U.S. Ambassador to the Vatican Jim Nicholson, the men’s orders flatly opposed the war. “There remain many avenues of peaceful, diplomatic alternatives that have not been explored. The international community does not support a planned war. A clear and imminent threat has not been proven.”

Conservative Judaism
Rabbi Jerome Epstein, head of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, said all Jews hope for peace, “history has also taught us that, at times, those who seek peace must fight for peace. Therefore, we hope that Iraq will use this period of time to comply with the world call for elimination of terrorism. If not, the responsibility of nations and the world to eliminate terrorism through whatever means necessary would be a tragic outcome.”

Council on American-Islamic Relations
One of the country’s most visible Muslim groups said war against Iraq would kill innocent civilians and destabilize the region. “Any American invasion and occupation of Iraq will fuel anti-American sentiment and would thereby harm our nation’s image and interests in the Middle East and throughout the Muslim world.”

Eastern Orthodox Bishops
The Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas urged “all leaders of governments to utilize every means available to seek a peaceful resolution to the present challenge to the security and happiness of all humankind, poses by the forces of terror and evil that threaten not only the civilized world, but the very survival of human existence” in a Feb. 11 statement.

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson has called for prayer. “As weapons inspectors continue their work, the United Nations debates next steps, the Iraqi people suffer and our government moves closer to war, we must not abdicate our responsibility to both pray for peace and to engage in public conversation regarding what is a just response that might lead to peace,” he wrote in a Feb. 13 letter to church leaders.

Episcopal Church
Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold, who has been critical of President Bush’s war rhetoric, said on Jan. 30 that President Bush needs to “exhaust all diplomatic and multilateral initiatives as the alternatives to waging war” and to “act only in concert with the United Nations Security Council.”

Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod
In a March 3 statement on peace, the Rev. Gerald Kieschnick, president of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod said: “Our president has been entrusted with the sword. He may have to use it. We pray for God’s wisdom to guide him in the execution of his duty, that peace may prevail for us and for all people.”

Lutheran World Federation
The LWF’s executive committee, in a March 15 statement, denounced the Bush Administration for seeking war without United Nations approval. “The `just war’ criteria … were designed to constrain – not justify – the resort to war. Indeed, they stand in clear opposition to a preemptive war for the purpose of `regime change.'”

Mennonite Church USA
The church’s executive board, in a Jan. 15 letter to President Bush, said “the victory this country needs, Mr. President, is the victory of peace, of a stable economy both here and in Iraq, of a democratic government that listens to the majority of its citizens who currently do not support war against Iraq.”

Metropolitan Communities Churches
On Jan. 27, the church’s board of elders said that “…war will only increase unrest and suffering in the world, deepen the distrust that already divides America and Britain from Iraq and its allies, and divert international attention … from world poverty, a rapidly deteriorating ecological structure and oppression of too many of the world’s peoples.”

Muslim American Society
The Muslim American Society issued a March 10 statement, arguing that a war on Iraq would not be a “just war,” would complicate the long-term foreign policy goals of our nation and could prompt increased terrorist attacks against America. “Therefore, based upon our Islamic religious beliefs and concern for our nation’s prosperity and security and the innocent potential Iraqi victims, we call on our government and all peace-loving people and nations to do everything in their power to avoid war, and resolve all pending issues through peaceful means,” the statement reads.

National Association of Evangelicals
Members of the National Association of Evangelicals, meeting on March 6, affirmed a call to prayer issued Feb. 24 by the World Evangelical Alliance. “We believe that war or violence is almost always the worst solution for resolving conflict. Insofar as it is possible, all paths to peace should be explored and all possible means should be used for resolving any conflict,” the WEA statement said.

National Baptist Convention, USA
During its mid-winter board meeting, leaders of the National Baptist Convention, USA, adopted a resolution expressing opposition to a possible war with Iraq. “The president, officers, board of directors, auxiliaries, boards and commissions of NBCUSA, Inc. firmly believe that non-violent social change and international peacemaking are the most desired methods to address any and all infractions of Iraq against the United Nations Resolutions passed relative to weapons of mass destruction in Iraq’s possession,” the resolution reads.

National Council of Churches
The NCC has sponsored anti-war delegations to Iraq, England, Germany, Italy, France and Russia, and is a sponsor of the “Win Without War” coalition. After the Feb. 5 meeting with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, an NCC statement said “we deplore the fact that the most powerful nations of this world regard war as an acceptable instrument of foreign policy,” and called a U.S.-led war “an inappropriate means to achieve disarmament of any Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.”

Orthodox Judaism
Rabbi Tzvi Weinreb, executive vice president of the Orthodox Union, said he supports President Bush in this “just war” against Iraq. “We pray for a peaceful solution, but if the president and his advisers, who are the experts, determine that military action is required to eradicate this evil … (the Orthodox Union stands by him) 100 percent.”

Pope John Paul II
In a Jan. 13 address to diplomats, the pope said, “No to war! War is not always inevitable. It is always a defeat for humanity. International law, honest dialogue, solidarity between States, the noble exercise of diplomacy: these are methods worthy of individuals and nations in resolving their differences.”

Presbyterian Church (USA)
In a Dec. 6, 2002, letter to President Bush, Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick urged caution. “We urge you to do everything in your power to encourage the United Nations inspection process. It is imperative for all that this be a successful effort.”

Progressive National Baptist Convention
In a resolution passed in January, the Progressive National Baptist Convention said: “The Progressive National Baptist Convention calls on President George Bush, the Congress and the United Nations to seek peace and justice through diplomatic means in Iraq just as this administration is seeking better relations with North Korea through diplomacy and not preemptive strikes.”

Reform Judaism
Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, said on Jan. 29, “We would prefer that this crisis be resolved by peaceful means, and if military action is necessary, we believe that multi-lateral action would be far preferable to unilateral action. Although we urge the President to pursue all diplomatic means with urgency and resolve, we know that the time for such efforts is limited.”

Southern Baptist Convention
Richard Land, president of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, has spoken in favor of the potential war with Iraq. In a statement issued after Secretary of State Colin Powell’s Feb. 5 address to the United Nations Security Council, Land said: “The case for using force to bring about disarmament and regime change in Iraq was clearly and convincingly made for anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear. Our choice is to pay less now and deal with this problem or we can pay a lot more later and deal with a nuclear-armed Saddam.”

Unitarian Universalist Association
UUA President William Sinkford has said he opposes the war and has asked for prayers for peace. In a pastoral letter last September, he said “The question in this difficult discussion must be more than simply, `Do we go to war?’ Raw power cannot heal those wounds hidden in the human heart that lead us to conflict.”

United Church of Christ
In a Feb. 22 statement, regional church leaders urged more time for United Nations inspections. “The recourse to war, according to our Christian tradition, is an admission of human failure. By such action, we admit our lack of commitment to use other means to resolve human conflict. It is a resounding ‘no’ to God’s eternal ‘yes’ to humanity.”

United Methodist Church
Bishop Sharon Brown Christopher of southern Illinois, president of the Council of Bishops, wrote to President Bush on Feb. 6, saying that “we pray that every possible means to prevent war will be pursued in the coming days. This is not a moment for haste but rather for deep thoughtfulness and prayer. It is a moment to reflect upon the well-spoken concerns of our allies around the world. The welfare of our human family depends on it.”

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
The bishops’ president, Wilton Gregory, said on Feb. 26 that the bishops have not changed their minds since they spoke out against war last November. “To permit preemptive or preventive uses of military force to overthrow threatening or hostile regimes would create deeply troubling moral and legal precedents. Based on the facts that are known, it is difficult to justify resort to war against Iraq.”

World Council of Churches
The WCC executive committee, in a Feb. 21 statement, said “war against Iraq would be immoral, unwise and in breach of the principles of the United Nations Charter.” The WCC also lambasted “the fact that the most powerful nations of this world again regard war as an acceptable instrument of foreign policy.”

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You've finally revealed a previously unstated premise, that sort of explains some of the shit you've been saying for a long time now, specifically your assumption that "White" "Christians" who supported President Bush and later President Trump have a lower standard of proof for war, with Muslims.

Is your standard to support a “preemptive war of choice for the purpose of `regime change’ in a Muslim nation without United Nations support and approval higher or lower than the following:

Lutheran World Federation The LWF’s executive committee, in a March 15 statement, denounced the Bush Administration for seeking war without United Nations approval. “The `just war’ criteria … were designed to constrain – not justify – the resort to war. Indeed, they stand in clear opposition to a preemptive war for the purpose of `regime change.'”

My mom was a Lutheran. I’m no bigot. Half a million Iraqis are not killed if W had only Listened to all the good intelligent and rational multicultural Christians like most Lutherans and Most Catholics.


(United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
The bishops’ president, Wilton Gregory, said on Feb. 26 that the bishops have not changed their minds since they spoke out against war last November. “To permit preemptive or preventive uses of military force to overthrow threatening or hostile regimes would create deeply troubling moral and legal precedents. Based on the facts that are known, it is difficult to justify resort to war against Iraq.”)

 

[9thIDdoc]

This was an appropriate standard for not supporting W’s intention to start a war in Iraq

( Church of God in Christ
In a Jan. 23 letter to President Bush, Church of God in Christ Presiding Bishop Gilbert E. Patterson and the denomination’s General Board expressed concern for the military — noting its significant numbers of ethnic minorities — and Iraqi civilians. They called for moral principles to be involved in determining the necessity for war. “Failure to satisfy these criteria renders the war aims, strategies and tactics, at a minimum, morally suspect and perhaps morally unacceptable in the eyes of the church universal and under the gaze of a just and holy God,” they wrote. )

Your standard is so low it dropped off the chart.

specifically your assumption that "White" "Christians" who supported President Bush and later President Trump have a lower standard of proof for war, with Muslims.

The right wing white evangelical Christians who supported the war - 8 out of 10 or so - certainly have a lower standard to support war and cause hundreds of thousands of Muslim deaths than the religious people cited below who demanded the highest standard be held “exhausting all peaceful means” before STARTING a FUCKING war.

I’m no anti/Christian bigot - I respect and applaud every single Christian with a high moral standard and opposition to our government STARTING a fucking war that dud not need to be started by a supposedly moral Nation of Christians and non-Christians an no religion at all.



Religious Groups Issue Statements on War with Iraq Compiled by Religion News Service, March 19, 2003

Religious Groups Issue Statements on War with Iraq

Compiled by Religion News Service, March 19, 2003 African Methodist Episcopal Church Bishop Adam J. Richardson, president of the Council of Bishops of the

www.pewforum.org

African Methodist Episcopal Church
Bishop Adam J. Richardson, president of the Council of Bishops of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, said in a March 12 interview that he was troubled by the support of possible war by some in Christianity’s conservative wing. “I think that, from my perspective the right-wing faction of Christianity is doing Christ a disservice by attempting to back their jaundiced views with Scripture, trivializing the Bible in public view and making a mockery of the best traditions of biblical scholarship.” He added his thoughts about the military: “I say emphatically that I am not against the military nor military personnel. I am an American. My passport says so. But I think the leadership is wrong. I’m praying for him (President Bush) and … the people of the Middle East.”

American Baptist Churches USA
The General Board of American Baptist Churches USA, meeting in November, issued a statement urging efforts toward peace and prayer for the United Nations, the Iraqi people, military personnel and others affected by the crisis. “Let us pray for the United Nations that it may continue to be a voice, a forum and instrument of peace in these days of terror and the prospect of war. We recommend that President Bush and Secretary of State Powell continue their efforts to work through the United Nations to resolve the issue of Iraqi disarmament through inspections and diplomacy,” the statement reads.

Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
The church’s Common Global Ministries Board, a joint venture with the United Church of Christ, said in a Feb. 10 statement: “God continues to speak to us a word of peace. Our churches believe that the church is called to participate in God’s message of reconciliation with all of creation. This calling is distinct from the pull of the world, but not removed from it. We are taught by Jesus, the Christ, that peace, harmony and justice are God’s vision for humanity.”

Church of England
Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, in a joint Feb. 20 statement with Catholic Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, reiterated his opposition to war. “The events of recent days show that doubts still persist about the moral legitimacy as well as the unpredictable humanitarian consequences of a war with Iraq.”

Church of God in Christ
In a Jan. 23 letter to President Bush, Church of God in Christ Presiding Bishop Gilbert E. Patterson and the denomination’s General Board expressed concern for the military — noting its significant numbers of ethnic minorities — and Iraqi civilians. They called for moral principles to be involved in determining the necessity for war. “Failure to satisfy these criteria renders the war aims, strategies and tactics, at a minimum, morally suspect and perhaps morally unacceptable in the eyes of the church universal and under the gaze of a just and holy God,” they wrote.

Conference of Major Superiors of Men (Catholic men’s religious orders)
In a joint letter with other group to U.S. Ambassador to the Vatican Jim Nicholson, the men’s orders flatly opposed the war. “There remain many avenues of peaceful, diplomatic alternatives that have not been explored. The international community does not support a planned war. A clear and imminent threat has not been proven.”

Conservative Judaism
Rabbi Jerome Epstein, head of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, said all Jews hope for peace, “history has also taught us that, at times, those who seek peace must fight for peace. Therefore, we hope that Iraq will use this period of time to comply with the world call for elimination of terrorism. If not, the responsibility of nations and the world to eliminate terrorism through whatever means necessary would be a tragic outcome.”

Council on American-Islamic Relations
One of the country’s most visible Muslim groups said war against Iraq would kill innocent civilians and destabilize the region. “Any American invasion and occupation of Iraq will fuel anti-American sentiment and would thereby harm our nation’s image and interests in the Middle East and throughout the Muslim world.”

Eastern Orthodox Bishops
The Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas urged “all leaders of governments to utilize every means available to seek a peaceful resolution to the present challenge to the security and happiness of all humankind, poses by the forces of terror and evil that threaten not only the civilized world, but the very survival of human existence” in a Feb. 11 statement.

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson has called for prayer. “As weapons inspectors continue their work, the United Nations debates next steps, the Iraqi people suffer and our government moves closer to war, we must not abdicate our responsibility to both pray for peace and to engage in public conversation regarding what is a just response that might lead to peace,” he wrote in a Feb. 13 letter to church leaders.

Episcopal Church
Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold, who has been critical of President Bush’s war rhetoric, said on Jan. 30 that President Bush needs to “exhaust all diplomatic and multilateral initiatives as the alternatives to waging war” and to “act only in concert with the United Nations Security Council.”

Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod
In a March 3 statement on peace, the Rev. Gerald Kieschnick, president of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod said: “Our president has been entrusted with the sword. He may have to use it. We pray for God’s wisdom to guide him in the execution of his duty, that peace may prevail for us and for all people.”

Lutheran World Federation
The LWF’s executive committee, in a March 15 statement, denounced the Bush Administration for seeking war without United Nations approval. “The `just war’ criteria … were designed to constrain – not justify – the resort to war. Indeed, they stand in clear opposition to a preemptive war for the purpose of `regime change.'”

Mennonite Church USA
The church’s executive board, in a Jan. 15 letter to President Bush, said “the victory this country needs, Mr. President, is the victory of peace, of a stable economy both here and in Iraq, of a democratic government that listens to the majority of its citizens who currently do not support war against Iraq.”

Metropolitan Communities Churches
On Jan. 27, the church’s board of elders said that “…war will only increase unrest and suffering in the world, deepen the distrust that already divides America and Britain from Iraq and its allies, and divert international attention … from world poverty, a rapidly deteriorating ecological structure and oppression of too many of the world’s peoples.”

Muslim American Society
The Muslim American Society issued a March 10 statement, arguing that a war on Iraq would not be a “just war,” would complicate the long-term foreign policy goals of our nation and could prompt increased terrorist attacks against America. “Therefore, based upon our Islamic religious beliefs and concern for our nation’s prosperity and security and the innocent potential Iraqi victims, we call on our government and all peace-loving people and nations to do everything in their power to avoid war, and resolve all pending issues through peaceful means,” the statement reads.

National Association of Evangelicals
Members of the National Association of Evangelicals, meeting on March 6, affirmed a call to prayer issued Feb. 24 by the World Evangelical Alliance. “We believe that war or violence is almost always the worst solution for resolving conflict. Insofar as it is possible, all paths to peace should be explored and all possible means should be used for resolving any conflict,” the WEA statement said.

National Baptist Convention, USA
During its mid-winter board meeting, leaders of the National Baptist Convention, USA, adopted a resolution expressing opposition to a possible war with Iraq. “The president, officers, board of directors, auxiliaries, boards and commissions of NBCUSA, Inc. firmly believe that non-violent social change and international peacemaking are the most desired methods to address any and all infractions of Iraq against the United Nations Resolutions passed relative to weapons of mass destruction in Iraq’s possession,” the resolution reads.

National Council of Churches
The NCC has sponsored anti-war delegations to Iraq, England, Germany, Italy, France and Russia, and is a sponsor of the “Win Without War” coalition. After the Feb. 5 meeting with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, an NCC statement said “we deplore the fact that the most powerful nations of this world regard war as an acceptable instrument of foreign policy,” and called a U.S.-led war “an inappropriate means to achieve disarmament of any Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.”

Orthodox Judaism
Rabbi Tzvi Weinreb, executive vice president of the Orthodox Union, said he supports President Bush in this “just war” against Iraq. “We pray for a peaceful solution, but if the president and his advisers, who are the experts, determine that military action is required to eradicate this evil … (the Orthodox Union stands by him) 100 percent.”

Pope John Paul II
In a Jan. 13 address to diplomats, the pope said, “No to war! War is not always inevitable. It is always a defeat for humanity. International law, honest dialogue, solidarity between States, the noble exercise of diplomacy: these are methods worthy of individuals and nations in resolving their differences.”

Presbyterian Church (USA)
In a Dec. 6, 2002, letter to President Bush, Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick urged caution. “We urge you to do everything in your power to encourage the United Nations inspection process. It is imperative for all that this be a successful effort.”

Progressive National Baptist Convention
In a resolution passed in January, the Progressive National Baptist Convention said: “The Progressive National Baptist Convention calls on President George Bush, the Congress and the United Nations to seek peace and justice through diplomatic means in Iraq just as this administration is seeking better relations with North Korea through diplomacy and not preemptive strikes.”

Reform Judaism
Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, said on Jan. 29, “We would prefer that this crisis be resolved by peaceful means, and if military action is necessary, we believe that multi-lateral action would be far preferable to unilateral action. Although we urge the President to pursue all diplomatic means with urgency and resolve, we know that the time for such efforts is limited.”

Southern Baptist Convention
Richard Land, president of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, has spoken in favor of the potential war with Iraq. In a statement issued after Secretary of State Colin Powell’s Feb. 5 address to the United Nations Security Council, Land said: “The case for using force to bring about disarmament and regime change in Iraq was clearly and convincingly made for anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear. Our choice is to pay less now and deal with this problem or we can pay a lot more later and deal with a nuclear-armed Saddam.”

Unitarian Universalist Association
UUA President William Sinkford has said he opposes the war and has asked for prayers for peace. In a pastoral letter last September, he said “The question in this difficult discussion must be more than simply, `Do we go to war?’ Raw power cannot heal those wounds hidden in the human heart that lead us to conflict.”

United Church of Christ
In a Feb. 22 statement, regional church leaders urged more time for United Nations inspections. “The recourse to war, according to our Christian tradition, is an admission of human failure. By such action, we admit our lack of commitment to use other means to resolve human conflict. It is a resounding ‘no’ to God’s eternal ‘yes’ to humanity.”

United Methodist Church
Bishop Sharon Brown Christopher of southern Illinois, president of the Council of Bishops, wrote to President Bush on Feb. 6, saying that “we pray that every possible means to prevent war will be pursued in the coming days. This is not a moment for haste but rather for deep thoughtfulness and prayer. It is a moment to reflect upon the well-spoken concerns of our allies around the world. The welfare of our human family depends on it.”

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
The bishops’ president, Wilton Gregory, said on Feb. 26 that the bishops have not changed their minds since they spoke out against war last November. “To permit preemptive or preventive uses of military force to overthrow threatening or hostile regimes would create deeply troubling moral and legal precedents. Based on the facts that are known, it is difficult to justify resort to war against Iraq.”

World Council of Churches
The WCC executive committee, in a Feb. 21 statement, said “war against Iraq would be immoral, unwise and in breach of the principles of the United Nations Charter.” The WCC also lambasted “the fact that the most powerful nations of this world again regard war as an acceptable instrument of foreign policy.”

More off topic opinion that had nothing to do with the war. Post some verifiable fact to back your bullspit opinions or STFU. All you're now doing is making a fool of yourself. Downright sick (and not in a good way) Stop being a clown. Man up and stop with the whining.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

More off topic opinion that had nothing to do with the war.

the invaders were largely Christian with all the modern technology and weaponry that warmongers could desire.

the invaded were Muslims with not much to fight with.

this thread asks the question did you support the war.

why is it off topic to question why only one certain type of Christian supported the war when most Christians did not?

Religious Groups Issue Statements on War with Iraq

Compiled by Religion News Service, March 19, 2003 African Methodist Episcopal Church Bishop Adam J. Richardson, president of the Council of Bishops of the

www.pewforum.org

American Baptist Churches USA
The General Board of American Baptist Churches USA, meeting in November, issued a statement urging efforts toward peace and prayer for the United Nations, the Iraqi people, military personnel and others affected by the crisis. “Let us pray for the United Nations that it may continue to be a voice, a forum and instrument of peace in these days of terror and the prospect of war. We recommend that President Bush and Secretary of State Powell continue their efforts to work through the United Nations to resolve the issue of Iraqi disarmament through inspections and diplomacy,” the statement reads.




The General Board of American Baptist Churches USA, were right and if heard would have prevented half a Million Iraqis from being killed in an unnecessary war.

They urged W to “continue their efforts to work through the United Nations to resolve the issue of Iraqi disarmament through inspections and diplomacy,”

Wise people - those Christians. Why must you ban them from this discussion. Are you wiser and more moral than them somehow?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

specifically your assumption that "White" "Christians" who supported President Bush and later President Trump have a lower standard of proof for war, with Muslims.

FYI you are losing culture war Christians by the churchbusloads since the disastrous Christian nation invasion of Iraq. And yes I am very pleased to hear that.


*** The extent to which the number of white evangelicals have declined in the United States has been laid bare in a new report by the Public Religion Research Institute's 2020 Census on American Religion.

'Jesus was definitely a Republican': Why some younger evangelicals are leaving the faith

The extent to which the number of white evangelicals have declined in the United States has been laid bare in a new report by the Public Religion Research Institute's 2020 Census on American Religion.The institute's study found that only 14% of Americans identify as white evangelical today. This...

www.rawstory.com

The institute's study found that only 14% of Americans identify as white evangelical today. This is a drastic decline since 2006, when America's religious landscape was composed of 23% white evangelicals, as the report notes.***


And I personally believe that it’s true that white nationalist evangelical culture war Christians’ dogmatic belief that America was created by God to follow Jesus had a huge role in understanding why that particular group of Christians wholeheartedly supported the US invasion and occupation of Iraq in March 2003.

 

[Correll]

This was an appropriate standard for not supporting W’s intention to start a war in Iraq

( Church of God in Christ
In a Jan. 23 letter to President Bush, Church of God in Christ Presiding Bishop Gilbert E. Patterson and the denomination’s General Board expressed concern for the military — noting its significant numbers of ethnic minorities — and Iraqi civilians. They called for moral principles to be involved in determining the necessity for war. “Failure to satisfy these criteria renders the war aims, strategies and tactics, at a minimum, morally suspect and perhaps morally unacceptable in the eyes of the church universal and under the gaze of a just and holy God,” they wrote. )

Your standard is so low it dropped off the chart.

specifically your assumption that "White" "Christians" who supported President Bush and later President Trump have a lower standard of proof for war, with Muslims.

The right wing white evangelical Christians who supported the war - 8 out of 10 or so - certainly have a lower standard to support war and cause hundreds of thousands of Muslim deaths than the religious people cited below who demanded the highest standard be held “exhausting all peaceful means” before STARTING a FUCKING war.

I’m no anti/Christian bigot - I respect and applaud every single Christian with a high moral standard and opposition to our government STARTING a fucking war that dud not need to be started by a supposedly moral Nation of Christians and non-Christians an no religion at all.



Religious Groups Issue Statements on War with Iraq Compiled by Religion News Service, March 19, 2003

Religious Groups Issue Statements on War with Iraq

Compiled by Religion News Service, March 19, 2003 African Methodist Episcopal Church Bishop Adam J. Richardson, president of the Council of Bishops of the

www.pewforum.org

That was a stupid exercise in cutting and pasting. All you had to say to make THAT point was to state the plenty of religious groups had a higher standard, and if you wanted, you could have posted the link.


BUT, the point you are trying to support, is NOT, that some religious groups had a higher standard of proof for war,


but that the group you were discussing, the "war supporting group" had a LOWER standard for war when it was against Muslims.


posting all that irrelevant crap, was obviously an attempt to "dazzle with bullshit" because you can not actually support your assumption.


And you can't admit that, because your premise is the entire point of this exercise, ie to smear your partisan and/or ideological enemies.


You want to "win" your arguments by insisting that the people that disagree with you are "Bad people" or "wacist" rather than win your arguments by supporting them with logic or evidence.


Based on an assumption that you cannot support. At all.

 

[Correll]

You've finally revealed a previously unstated premise, that sort of explains some of the shit you've been saying for a long time now, specifically your assumption that "White" "Christians" who supported President Bush and later President Trump have a lower standard of proof for war, with Muslims.

Is your standard to support a “preemptive war of choice for the purpose of `regime change’ in a Muslim nation without United Nations support and approval higher or lower than the following:

Lutheran World Federation The LWF’s executive committee, in a March 15 statement, denounced the Bush Administration for seeking war without United Nations approval. “The `just war’ criteria … were designed to constrain – not justify – the resort to war. Indeed, they stand in clear opposition to a preemptive war for the purpose of `regime change.'”

My mom was a Lutheran. I’m no bigot. Half a million Iraqis are not killed if W had only Listened to all the good intelligent and rational multicultural Christians like most Lutherans and Most Catholics.


(United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
The bishops’ president, Wilton Gregory, said on Feb. 26 that the bishops have not changed their minds since they spoke out against war last November. “To permit preemptive or preventive uses of military force to overthrow threatening or hostile regimes would create deeply troubling moral and legal precedents. Based on the facts that are known, it is difficult to justify resort to war against Iraq.”)

Irrelevant drivel.

 

[Correll]

specifically your assumption that "White" "Christians" who supported President Bush and later President Trump have a lower standard of proof for war, with Muslims.

FYI you are losing culture war Christians by the churchbusloads since the disastrous Christian nation invasion of Iraq. And yes I am very pleased to hear that.


*** The extent to which the number of white evangelicals have declined in the United States has been laid bare in a new report by the Public Religion Research Institute's 2020 Census on American Religion.

'Jesus was definitely a Republican': Why some younger evangelicals are leaving the faith

The extent to which the number of white evangelicals have declined in the United States has been laid bare in a new report by the Public Religion Research Institute's 2020 Census on American Religion.The institute's study found that only 14% of Americans identify as white evangelical today. This...

www.rawstory.com

The institute's study found that only 14% of Americans identify as white evangelical today. This is a drastic decline since 2006, when America's religious landscape was composed of 23% white evangelicals, as the report notes.***


And I personally believe that it’s true that white nationalist evangelical culture war Christians’ dogmatic belief that America was created by God to follow Jesus had a huge role in understanding why that particular group of Christians wholeheartedly supported the US invasion and occupation of Iraq in March 2003.

Let's see, instead of supporting your premise, we have

1. revealing a motive to smear your enemies.

2. logical fallacy of appeal to popularity

3. and unsupported assertions.

4. and you keep saying white a lot. When you've posted a lot of stuff showing that "white", or indeed, Christian did not define the dividing lines in this issue.


ANd most importantly,


5. DOING NOTHING TO SUPPORT YOUR ASSUMPTION. BECUASE YOU CAN'T.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

but that the group you were discussing, the "war supporting group" had a LOWER standard for war when it was against Muslims.

That group of warmongering white evangelical nationalistic hard right Republican voting Christians had a lower standard when compared to all other groups including all other Christian groups. That group is the most anti-Muslim of all other groups and you think anti-Muslim bIgotry in that group had nothing to do with their being the most supportive of W’s dumb invasion knowing thousands of innocent Muslims would die.


You are totally lost in any discussion involving reality. You are intellectually under developed. Did you get vaccinated yet or are you hoping to be the incubator for a new aggressive COVID variant that beats the vaccinated and starts a whole new epidemic and shuts everything down again?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Irrelevant drivel

We can always tell when you are stuck.

The word “irrelevant” pops up when you are. Just like the little red thermometer in a Butterball Turkey.

 

[9thIDdoc]

why is it off topic to question why only one certain type of Christian supported the war when most Christians did not?
Obviously because your statement is grossly untrue. There were plenty of Muslims on both (all) sides of that war which began when one Muslim Nation invaded another. It wasn't Christians wandering around blowing themselves up so they could kill Muslim civilians. The Civil wars in Iraq were predominately Muslim vs Muslim and was it not Muslim Kurds that Saddam used WMD against? The vast majority of Americans were in favor of the war regardless of their religion and rightly so.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Obviously because your statement is grossly untrue.

What is grossly untrue about this?


why is it off topic to question why only one certain type of Christian supported the war when most Christians did not?


Are you saying most Christians support killing half a million Muslims to start searching for WMD in Iraq in N
March 2003?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

There were plenty of Muslims on both (all) sides of that war which began when one Muslim Nation invaded another.

There was no Muslim nation invading another Muslim nation in March 2003 to start the Iraq War. You are obviously deranged. It was W the president of the USA that invaded Iraq in 2003. Most Christians in the world do not support it or condone it.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The vast majority of Americans were in favor of the war regardless of their religion and rightly so.

based on what? 6 out of 10 Americans polled before the war wanted W to give inspectors more time. What polls have you got?



War With Iraq: Americans In No Hurry
BY JAIME HOLGUIN
OCTOBER 6, 2002 / 5:38 PM / CBS
Americans generally support military action against Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, and while most think war is inevitable, there is no rush to begin it, according to a CBS News/New York Times Poll released Sunday.

War With Iraq: Americans In No Hurry

<b>CBS News Poll</b> Shows People Are In No Rush To Begin War

www.cbsnews.com

The public overwhelmingly wants to get the United Nations' weapons inspectors back into Iraq and allied support before taking any military action. Americans also want a congressional vote before acting - and think members of Congress should be asking more questions about the implications of war with Iraq.

Americans are concerned about the wider implications of war with Iraq. They believe such a war will result in a long and costly military involvement; they believe it will lead to a wider war in the Middle East with other Arab nations and Israel; and that it could further undermine the U.S. economy.


Americans are also cool to the doctrine of pre-emption. They believe countries should not be able to attack each other unless attacked first - and less than half of Americans think the U.S., in particular, has the right to make pre-emptive strikes against nations it thinks may attack in the future.

Military Action and Weapons Inspections
More people now than just two weeks ago favor giving the United Nations more time to get weapons inspectors back into Iraq.
U.S. SHOULD:

Now:
Take military action soon 30%
Give U.N. weapons inspectors time 63%

2 Weeks Ago:
Take military action soon 36%
Give U.N. weapons inspectors time 57%

Support for getting U.S. allies on board before any military action has remained constant.


Asked whether Iraq presents such a clear danger that the U.S. needs to act now, even without allied backing, or whether the U.S. needs to wait for such backing, Americans expressed the desire to wait.
U.S. SHOULD:
Now Act now 29%
Wait for allies 65%

 

[9thIDdoc]

What is grossly untrue about this?


why is it off topic to question why only one certain type of Christian supported the war when most Christians did not?


Are you saying most Christians support killing half a million Muslims to start searching for WMD in Iraq in N
March 2003?

What is grossly untrue about this?


why is it off topic to question why only one certain type of Christian supported the war when most Christians did not?


Are you saying most Christians support killing half a million Muslims to start searching for WMD in Iraq in N
March 2003?

What is grossly untrue about this?


why is it off topic to question why only one certain type of Christian supported the war when most Christians did not?


Are you saying most Christians support killing half a million Muslims to start searching for WMD in Iraq in N
March 2003?

Your claims are grossly untrue because they are lies which you cannot prove or support.
Are you trying to claim Operation Desert Storm, Operation Desert Fox and the intermittent engagements in the no-fly zone were NOT warfare?
Are you trying to claim that the goal of the first invasion was NOT a response to the Iraqi invasion and occupation of Kuwait and the purpose of the second invasion was NOT to remove Saddam from power? Are you trying to claim only Christians killed Iraqis when that is clearly untrue? Where is your sympathy for the people of other Nations and faiths who died to free Iraqis from the oppression of an evil tyrant? Where is your appreciation for the coalition using pression guided missiles and bombs to take out targets with a minimum of unintentional civilian casualties when it would have been so much easier, cheaper and safer to simply wipe the cities or Nation off the map? You are simply trying to reinvent history to fit your agenda.

 

[9thIDdoc]

based on what? 6 out of 10 Americans polled before the war wanted W to give inspectors more time. What polls have you got?



War With Iraq: Americans In No Hurry
BY JAIME HOLGUIN
OCTOBER 6, 2002 / 5:38 PM / CBS
Americans generally support military action against Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, and while most think war is inevitable, there is no rush to begin it, according to a CBS News/New York Times Poll released Sunday.

War With Iraq: Americans In No Hurry

<b>CBS News Poll</b> Shows People Are In No Rush To Begin War

www.cbsnews.com

The public overwhelmingly wants to get the United Nations' weapons inspectors back into Iraq and allied support before taking any military action. Americans also want a congressional vote before acting - and think members of Congress should be asking more questions about the implications of war with Iraq.

Americans are concerned about the wider implications of war with Iraq. They believe such a war will result in a long and costly military involvement; they believe it will lead to a wider war in the Middle East with other Arab nations and Israel; and that it could further undermine the U.S. economy.


Americans are also cool to the doctrine of pre-emption. They believe countries should not be able to attack each other unless attacked first - and less than half of Americans think the U.S., in particular, has the right to make pre-emptive strikes against nations it thinks may attack in the future.

Military Action and Weapons Inspections
More people now than just two weeks ago favor giving the United Nations more time to get weapons inspectors back into Iraq.
U.S. SHOULD:

Now:
Take military action soon 30%
Give U.N. weapons inspectors time 63%

2 Weeks Ago:
Take military action soon 36%
Give U.N. weapons inspectors time 57%

Support for getting U.S. allies on board before any military action has remained constant.


Asked whether Iraq presents such a clear danger that the U.S. needs to act now, even without allied backing, or whether the U.S. needs to wait for such backing, Americans expressed the desire to wait.
U.S. SHOULD:
Now Act now 29%
Wait for allies 65%

One more batch of irrelevant opinion signifying nothing.