Did Jesus really exist?

[PostmodernProph]

Why wouldn't he have been real? In his day there were many rabbis named Jesus. It was a common name, and rabbis were pretty abundant too.

Actually there were zero rabbis named Jesus.

'Jesus' is the English language form of the Greek name 'Ieosus.'

Man's name under discussion, in his own language, and as he'd have been called by contemporaries was 'Yeshua.'

yeah, what on earth was Tom thinking, posting in English!......

 

[Delta4Embassy]

yeah, what on earth was Tom thinking, posting in English!......

AS did I. Didn't prevent me from appreciating the difference.

 

[PostmodernProph]

lets be honest.....the only difference is the language its typed in......

 

[CrusaderFrank]

On another thread, I made the statement that Jesus was a made up character.

Here's why I think he was.

1) The Gospels were written years after his supposed life, and they contradict each other on key points.

2) He is not mentioned by a lot of contemporary writers who should have noticed him.

3) He shares a lot of traits with other mythological figures.

1. The existence of the early church is established and it was close enough that the members and leaders would have been contemporaries.
2.

Well, that depends on when you think the "early church" was established. "Christians" aren't mentioned by pagan sources until well into the second century, and even then, there was confusion as to whom they were talking about. The Emperor Hadrian for instance, wrote that followers of Serapis called themselves "Christians".

In fact, it wasn't until the fourth century that the Church started to nail down which Gospels and Epistles were the officials ones.

That's just ignorant, so ignorant as to qualify as stupid

 

[JoeB131]

Frank, if you can't keep up with the discussion, you really shouldn't embarrass yourself.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Wow, Paul sure had me fooled.

He was born a Jew, a Pharisee, thus a leader of the Jews, and now you are telling me that Saul threw that all away, so that he could make tons of money.

It's not me who is telling you that, it is the evidence.

Nevermind the fact, that Paul was martyred, spent years locked up in jail, was beaten, battered and bruised for his Ministry.

Looks to me like, he gave up the good life, for a horrible existence, much like a millionaire giving up his fortune, to live life as a homeless man.

But, you keep on trying to fool yourself, deep down, you really know the truth, you just can't handle the truth, huh?

You approach things from the idea that the Bible is literal fact, that there is no source of information other than the Bible. The problem is, this isn't true. There is a great quantity of information availible - it simply doesn't support the New Testament accounts.

It is really sad in this day and age you have people believing it's true , bowing down to statues, eating cookies they think becomes a their godman when eaten or twitching and rolling on the floor or talking gibberish (tongues)

^ Obama Fluffer

Such a huge Obama Fluffer, it had to start a sock account to Fluff even more

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Frank, if you can't keep up with the discussion, you really shouldn't embarrass yourself.

Tacitus (1st CE) wrote that Nero (64AD) persecuted thousands of Christians

"Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind"

 

[The Irish Ram]

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
If you don't know by now, about the philosophers who debated the reason the earth went dark for 3 hours while Christ hung on the cross, or
The "closed door meeting" that Pilate held at the Temple upon hearing that Christ had indeed returned from the grave, or
The word for word account of His trial, or
The legal account of the interrogation of 2 priests that returned with Christ, or
That the gospels were all written before 70 AD, then you don't want to know He existed......

 

[JoeB131]

Frank, if you can't keep up with the discussion, you really shouldn't embarrass yourself.

Tacitus (1st CE) wrote that Nero (64AD) persecuted thousands of Christians

"Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind"

Tacitus wasn't born until 56 CE, and didn't write his history until the second century.

But we can go even further- The Tacitus Entry is almost certainly a Christian forgery.
Non-Christian Testimony for Jesus 8211 From the authentic pen of lying Christian scribes

No Christian apologist for centuries ever quoted the passage of Tacitus – not in fact, until it had appeared almost word-for-word in the writings of Sulpicius Severus, in the early fifth century, where it is mixed in with other myths. Sulpicius's contemporaries credited him with a skill in the 'antique' hand. He put it to good use and fantasy was his forte: his Life of St. Martin is replete with numerous 'miracles', including raising of the dead and personal appearances by Jesus and Satan.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Frank, if you can't keep up with the discussion, you really shouldn't embarrass yourself.

Tacitus (1st CE) wrote that Nero (64AD) persecuted thousands of Christians

"Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind"

Tacitus wasn't born until 56 CE, and didn't write his history until the second century.

But we can go even further- The Tacitus Entry is almost certainly a Christian forgery.
Non-Christian Testimony for Jesus 8211 From the authentic pen of lying Christian scribes

No Christian apologist for centuries ever quoted the passage of Tacitus – not in fact, until it had appeared almost word-for-word in the writings of Sulpicius Severus, in the early fifth century, where it is mixed in with other myths. Sulpicius's contemporaries credited him with a skill in the 'antique' hand. He put it to good use and fantasy was his forte: his Life of St. Martin is replete with numerous 'miracles', including raising of the dead and personal appearances by Jesus and Satan.

LOLz.

Yes, Nero never existed either

Moron

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
If you don't know by now, about the philosophers who debated the reason the earth went dark for 3 hours while Christ hung on the cross, or
The "closed door meeting" that Pilate held at the Temple upon hearing that Christ had indeed returned from the grave, or
The word for word account of His trial, or
The legal account of the interrogation of 2 priests that returned with Christ, or
That the gospels were all written before 70 AD, then you don't want to know He existed......

Let's be serious, they know He exists to this day, they just don't want it to be true. That would make them skered.

 

[guno]

There were NO contemporary witnesses. There were NO eye witnesses period.

I, and many billions more would disagree with that statement.


Most of those listed above, were murdered/martyred proclaiming Jesus is the Risen Lord.

If you could find just 1 person who was willing to die for you(no kin folks), then you have a truly blessed life.But, to have more than a dozen people, go their separate ways, preach the Gospel, and then, basically at knife point, be forced to recant, or die, and they all choose to die, as opposed to betraying the Person, they consider to be the Lord.

Yeah, there were plenty of eye witnesses, and since the Gospels have survived more than 2 millennia now, i'll take that, as the Word of God.

Here the big problem with that list.

Luke and Mark are not eye-witnesses. It is unlikely Matthew is since he plagiarizes about 70% of Mark. John was the last one written, and it was unlikely he was an apostle, either.

You also repeat the "Died for a lie" Fallacy, when in fact, the only apostle whose death is mentioned in the bible is James. The deaths of all the others are "Church Traditions", and are contradictory.

For instance, Tradition has St. Thomas dying in India, not as a Martyr , but being killed in a hunting accident.
Thomas the Apostle - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Meanwhile, St. Andrew is supposed to have been Martyred in Cyprus, Scotland and Russia. No, seriously.

Josephus (c37-100 AD)


Flavius Josephus is a highly respected and much-quoted Romano-Jewish historian. The early Christians were zealous readers of his work.

A native of Judea, living in the 1st century AD, Josephus was actually governor of Galilee for a time (prior to the war of 70 AD) – the very province in which Jesus allegedly did his wonders. Though not born until 37 AD and therefore not a contemporary witness to any Jesus-character, Josephus at one point even lived in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle.

Josephus's two major tomes are History of The Jewish War and The Antiquities of the Jews. In these complementary works, the former written in the 70s, the latter in the 90s AD, Josephus mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era.

At face value, Josephus appears to be the answer to the Christian apologist's dreams.

In a single paragraph (the so-called Testimonium Flavianum) Josephus confirms every salient aspect of the Christ-myth:

1. Jesus's existence 2. his 'more than human' status 3. his miracle working 4. his teaching 5. his ministry among the Jews and the Gentiles 6. his Messiahship 7. his condemnation by the Jewish priests 8. his sentence by Pilate 9. his death on the cross 10. the devotion of his followers 11. his resurrection on the 3rd day 12. his post-death appearance 13. his fulfillment of divine prophecy 14. the successful continuance of the Christians.

In just 127 words Josephus confirms everything – now that is a miracle!

BUT WAIT A MINUTE ...

Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."

Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.

It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.

Josephus knows nothing of Christians It was the around the year 53 AD that Josephus decided to investigate the sects among the Jews. According to the gospel fable this was the period of explosive growth for the Christian faith: " the churches ... throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria ... were edified... and ... were multiplied." – Acts 9:31. This is also the time of the so-called "Council of Jerusalem" when supposedly Paul regaled the brothers with tales of "miracles and wonders" among the gentiles (Acts 15.12). And yet Josephus knows nothing of all this: "When I was sixteen years old, I decided to get experience with the various sects that are among us. These are three: as we have said many times, the first, that of the Pharisees, the second that of the Saduccees, the third, that of theEssenes. For I thought that in this way I would choose best, if I carefully examined them all. Therefore, submitting myself to strict training, I passed through the three groups." – Life, 2. Josephus elsewhere does record a "fourth sect of Jewish philosophy" and reports that it was a "mad distemper" agitating the entire country. But it has nothing to do with Christianity and its superstar: "But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man Lord ... And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy." – Antiquities 18.23. Nothing could better illustrate the bogus nature of theTestimonium than the remaining corpus of Josephus's work. [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Consider, also, the anomalies:

1. How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!

2. If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.

It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing that is not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.

Non-Christian Testimony for Jesus 8211 From the authentic pen of lying Christian scribes

 

[guno]

On another thread, I made the statement that Jesus was a made up character.

Here's why I think he was.

1) The Gospels were written years after his supposed life, and they contradict each other on key points.

2) He is not mentioned by a lot of contemporary writers who should have noticed him.

3) He shares a lot of traits with other mythological figures.

1. The existence of the early church is established and it was close enough that the members and leaders would have been contemporaries.
2.

Well, that depends on when you think the "early church" was established. "Christians" aren't mentioned by pagan sources until well into the second century, and even then, there was confusion as to whom they were talking about. The Emperor Hadrian for instance, wrote that followers of Serapis called themselves "Christians".

In fact, it wasn't until the fourth century that the Church started to nail down which Gospels and Epistles were the officials ones.

That's just ignorant, so ignorant as to qualify as stupid

goyim want a pork treat?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Jew want a second chance?

 

[guno]

Jew want a second chance?

"The Christians had to do something different. They had to develop appeal. So, they began to assume beliefs that pagan people found attractive. That was how they came up with the concepts of the trinity, transubstantiation, the need to "save" everyone through the resurrection of a messiah, virgin birth, and all the other wacky ideas of Christianity. All these were lifted straight from other religions, some of which preceded Christianity by 700 years, Pagans just lapped up things like demigods, gods having intercourse with humans, virgins giving birth. Such claims meant something to pagans, and they were already familiar with such beliefs from their own cultures. So leaving a pagan religion to join Christianity was not much of a stretch, especially after Paul declared that the pagans did not need to keep the Commandments of the Torah."

 

[CrusaderFrank]

On another thread, I made the statement that Jesus was a made up character.

Here's why I think he was.

1) The Gospels were written years after his supposed life, and they contradict each other on key points.

2) He is not mentioned by a lot of contemporary writers who should have noticed him.

3) He shares a lot of traits with other mythological figures.

1. The existence of the early church is established and it was close enough that the members and leaders would have been contemporaries.
2.

Well, that depends on when you think the "early church" was established. "Christians" aren't mentioned by pagan sources until well into the second century, and even then, there was confusion as to whom they were talking about. The Emperor Hadrian for instance, wrote that followers of Serapis called themselves "Christians".

In fact, it wasn't until the fourth century that the Church started to nail down which Gospels and Epistles were the officials ones.

That's just ignorant, so ignorant as to qualify as stupid

goyim want a pork treat?

Sock sez wha?

 

[guno]

There were NO contemporary witnesses. There were NO eye witnesses period.

I, and many billions more would disagree with that statement.


Most of those listed above, were murdered/martyred proclaiming Jesus is the Risen Lord.

If you could find just 1 person who was willing to die for you(no kin folks), then you have a truly blessed life.But, to have more than a dozen people, go their separate ways, preach the Gospel, and then, basically at knife point, be forced to recant, or die, and they all choose to die, as opposed to betraying the Person, they consider to be the Lord.

Yeah, there were plenty of eye witnesses, and since the Gospels have survived more than 2 millennia now, i'll take that, as the Word of God.

Here the big problem with that list.

Luke and Mark are not eye-witnesses. It is unlikely Matthew is since he plagiarizes about 70% of Mark. John was the last one written, and it was unlikely he was an apostle, either.

You also repeat the "Died for a lie" Fallacy, when in fact, the only apostle whose death is mentioned in the bible is James. The deaths of all the others are "Church Traditions", and are contradictory.

For instance, Tradition has St. Thomas dying in India, not as a Martyr , but being killed in a hunting accident.
Thomas the Apostle - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Meanwhile, St. Andrew is supposed to have been Martyred in Cyprus, Scotland and Russia. No, seriously.

Josephus (c37-100 AD)


Flavius Josephus is a highly respected and much-quoted Romano-Jewish historian. The early Christians were zealous readers of his work.

A native of Judea, living in the 1st century AD, Josephus was actually governor of Galilee for a time (prior to the war of 70 AD) – the very province in which Jesus allegedly did his wonders. Though not born until 37 AD and therefore not a contemporary witness to any Jesus-character, Josephus at one point even lived in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle.

Josephus's two major tomes are History of The Jewish War and The Antiquities of the Jews. In these complementary works, the former written in the 70s, the latter in the 90s AD, Josephus mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era.

At face value, Josephus appears to be the answer to the Christian apologist's dreams.

In a single paragraph (the so-called Testimonium Flavianum) Josephus confirms every salient aspect of the Christ-myth:

1. Jesus's existence 2. his 'more than human' status 3. his miracle working 4. his teaching 5. his ministry among the Jews and the Gentiles 6. his Messiahship 7. his condemnation by the Jewish priests 8. his sentence by Pilate 9. his death on the cross 10. the devotion of his followers 11. his resurrection on the 3rd day 12. his post-death appearance 13. his fulfillment of divine prophecy 14. the successful continuance of the Christians.

In just 127 words Josephus confirms everything – now that is a miracle!

BUT WAIT A MINUTE ...

Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."

Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.

It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.

Josephus knows nothing of Christians It was the around the year 53 AD that Josephus decided to investigate the sects among the Jews. According to the gospel fable this was the period of explosive growth for the Christian faith: " the churches ... throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria ... were edified... and ... were multiplied." – Acts 9:31. This is also the time of the so-called "Council of Jerusalem" when supposedly Paul regaled the brothers with tales of "miracles and wonders" among the gentiles (Acts 15.12). And yet Josephus knows nothing of all this: "When I was sixteen years old, I decided to get experience with the various sects that are among us. These are three: as we have said many times, the first, that of the Pharisees, the second that of the Saduccees, the third, that of theEssenes. For I thought that in this way I would choose best, if I carefully examined them all. Therefore, submitting myself to strict training, I passed through the three groups." – Life, 2. Josephus elsewhere does record a "fourth sect of Jewish philosophy" and reports that it was a "mad distemper" agitating the entire country. But it has nothing to do with Christianity and its superstar: "But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man Lord ... And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy." – Antiquities 18.23. Nothing could better illustrate the bogus nature of theTestimonium than the remaining corpus of Josephus's work. [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Consider, also, the anomalies:

1. How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!

2. If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.

It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing that is not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.

Non-Christian Testimony for Jesus 8211 From the authentic pen of lying Christian scribes

Parallels between Christianity and ancient Pagan religions

Parallels between the Christian gospels and Pagan mythology

 

[guno]

There were NO contemporary witnesses. There were NO eye witnesses period.

I, and many billions more would disagree with that statement.


Most of those listed above, were murdered/martyred proclaiming Jesus is the Risen Lord.

If you could find just 1 person who was willing to die for you(no kin folks), then you have a truly blessed life.But, to have more than a dozen people, go their separate ways, preach the Gospel, and then, basically at knife point, be forced to recant, or die, and they all choose to die, as opposed to betraying the Person, they consider to be the Lord.

Yeah, there were plenty of eye witnesses, and since the Gospels have survived more than 2 millennia now, i'll take that, as the Word of God.

Here the big problem with that list.

Luke and Mark are not eye-witnesses. It is unlikely Matthew is since he plagiarizes about 70% of Mark. John was the last one written, and it was unlikely he was an apostle, either.

You also repeat the "Died for a lie" Fallacy, when in fact, the only apostle whose death is mentioned in the bible is James. The deaths of all the others are "Church Traditions", and are contradictory.

For instance, Tradition has St. Thomas dying in India, not as a Martyr , but being killed in a hunting accident.
Thomas the Apostle - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Meanwhile, St. Andrew is supposed to have been Martyred in Cyprus, Scotland and Russia. No, seriously.

Josephus (c37-100 AD)


Flavius Josephus is a highly respected and much-quoted Romano-Jewish historian. The early Christians were zealous readers of his work.

A native of Judea, living in the 1st century AD, Josephus was actually governor of Galilee for a time (prior to the war of 70 AD) – the very province in which Jesus allegedly did his wonders. Though not born until 37 AD and therefore not a contemporary witness to any Jesus-character, Josephus at one point even lived in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle.

Josephus's two major tomes are History of The Jewish War and The Antiquities of the Jews. In these complementary works, the former written in the 70s, the latter in the 90s AD, Josephus mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era.

At face value, Josephus appears to be the answer to the Christian apologist's dreams.

In a single paragraph (the so-called Testimonium Flavianum) Josephus confirms every salient aspect of the Christ-myth:

1. Jesus's existence 2. his 'more than human' status 3. his miracle working 4. his teaching 5. his ministry among the Jews and the Gentiles 6. his Messiahship 7. his condemnation by the Jewish priests 8. his sentence by Pilate 9. his death on the cross 10. the devotion of his followers 11. his resurrection on the 3rd day 12. his post-death appearance 13. his fulfillment of divine prophecy 14. the successful continuance of the Christians.

In just 127 words Josephus confirms everything – now that is a miracle!

BUT WAIT A MINUTE ...

Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."

Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.

It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.

Josephus knows nothing of Christians It was the around the year 53 AD that Josephus decided to investigate the sects among the Jews. According to the gospel fable this was the period of explosive growth for the Christian faith: " the churches ... throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria ... were edified... and ... were multiplied." – Acts 9:31. This is also the time of the so-called "Council of Jerusalem" when supposedly Paul regaled the brothers with tales of "miracles and wonders" among the gentiles (Acts 15.12). And yet Josephus knows nothing of all this: "When I was sixteen years old, I decided to get experience with the various sects that are among us. These are three: as we have said many times, the first, that of the Pharisees, the second that of the Saduccees, the third, that of theEssenes. For I thought that in this way I would choose best, if I carefully examined them all. Therefore, submitting myself to strict training, I passed through the three groups." – Life, 2. Josephus elsewhere does record a "fourth sect of Jewish philosophy" and reports that it was a "mad distemper" agitating the entire country. But it has nothing to do with Christianity and its superstar: "But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man Lord ... And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy." – Antiquities 18.23. Nothing could better illustrate the bogus nature of theTestimonium than the remaining corpus of Josephus's work. [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Consider, also, the anomalies:

1. How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!

2. If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.

It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing that is not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.

Non-Christian Testimony for Jesus 8211 From the authentic pen of lying Christian scribes

Parallels between Christianity and ancient Pagan religions

Parallels between the Christian gospels and Pagan mythology

The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the Sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the Sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the "Sun of God's" birthday on December 25th.



The following are the characteristics of the "Sun of God"

• In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the Sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
  
  
• The Sun is the "Light of the World."
  
  
• The Sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
  
  
• The Sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
  
  
• The Sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
  
  
• The Sun "walks on water."
  
  
• The Sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the Sun must pass.
  
  
• The Sun at 12:00 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
  
  
• The Sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
  
  
• The Sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
  

The Egyptian Pharaohs also identified themselves in life with the Sun god Horus and in death with his father Osiris. These myths identified the Pharaoh as both the earthly form of the royal falcon god who triumphed over his enemies and the pious son who claims the throne after the death of his father. Whilst Osiris ruled the dead in the underworld, Horus ruled the living. Horus and Osiris, just like Jesus, became interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are one"). Horus, who predates the Christ by 3000 years shared the following in common with him.

 

[guno]

There were NO contemporary witnesses. There were NO eye witnesses period.

I, and many billions more would disagree with that statement.


Most of those listed above, were murdered/martyred proclaiming Jesus is the Risen Lord.

If you could find just 1 person who was willing to die for you(no kin folks), then you have a truly blessed life.But, to have more than a dozen people, go their separate ways, preach the Gospel, and then, basically at knife point, be forced to recant, or die, and they all choose to die, as opposed to betraying the Person, they consider to be the Lord.

Yeah, there were plenty of eye witnesses, and since the Gospels have survived more than 2 millennia now, i'll take that, as the Word of God.

Here the big problem with that list.

Luke and Mark are not eye-witnesses. It is unlikely Matthew is since he plagiarizes about 70% of Mark. John was the last one written, and it was unlikely he was an apostle, either.

You also repeat the "Died for a lie" Fallacy, when in fact, the only apostle whose death is mentioned in the bible is James. The deaths of all the others are "Church Traditions", and are contradictory.

For instance, Tradition has St. Thomas dying in India, not as a Martyr , but being killed in a hunting accident.
Thomas the Apostle - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Meanwhile, St. Andrew is supposed to have been Martyred in Cyprus, Scotland and Russia. No, seriously.

Josephus (c37-100 AD)


Flavius Josephus is a highly respected and much-quoted Romano-Jewish historian. The early Christians were zealous readers of his work.

A native of Judea, living in the 1st century AD, Josephus was actually governor of Galilee for a time (prior to the war of 70 AD) – the very province in which Jesus allegedly did his wonders. Though not born until 37 AD and therefore not a contemporary witness to any Jesus-character, Josephus at one point even lived in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle.

Josephus's two major tomes are History of The Jewish War and The Antiquities of the Jews. In these complementary works, the former written in the 70s, the latter in the 90s AD, Josephus mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era.

At face value, Josephus appears to be the answer to the Christian apologist's dreams.

In a single paragraph (the so-called Testimonium Flavianum) Josephus confirms every salient aspect of the Christ-myth:

1. Jesus's existence 2. his 'more than human' status 3. his miracle working 4. his teaching 5. his ministry among the Jews and the Gentiles 6. his Messiahship 7. his condemnation by the Jewish priests 8. his sentence by Pilate 9. his death on the cross 10. the devotion of his followers 11. his resurrection on the 3rd day 12. his post-death appearance 13. his fulfillment of divine prophecy 14. the successful continuance of the Christians.

In just 127 words Josephus confirms everything – now that is a miracle!

BUT WAIT A MINUTE ...

Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."

Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.

It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.

Josephus knows nothing of Christians It was the around the year 53 AD that Josephus decided to investigate the sects among the Jews. According to the gospel fable this was the period of explosive growth for the Christian faith: " the churches ... throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria ... were edified... and ... were multiplied." – Acts 9:31. This is also the time of the so-called "Council of Jerusalem" when supposedly Paul regaled the brothers with tales of "miracles and wonders" among the gentiles (Acts 15.12). And yet Josephus knows nothing of all this: "When I was sixteen years old, I decided to get experience with the various sects that are among us. These are three: as we have said many times, the first, that of the Pharisees, the second that of the Saduccees, the third, that of theEssenes. For I thought that in this way I would choose best, if I carefully examined them all. Therefore, submitting myself to strict training, I passed through the three groups." – Life, 2. Josephus elsewhere does record a "fourth sect of Jewish philosophy" and reports that it was a "mad distemper" agitating the entire country. But it has nothing to do with Christianity and its superstar: "But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man Lord ... And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy." – Antiquities 18.23. Nothing could better illustrate the bogus nature of theTestimonium than the remaining corpus of Josephus's work. [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Consider, also, the anomalies:

1. How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!

2. If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.

It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing that is not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.

Non-Christian Testimony for Jesus 8211 From the authentic pen of lying Christian scribes

Parallels between Christianity and ancient Pagan religions

Parallels between the Christian gospels and Pagan mythology

The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the Sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the Sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the "Sun of God's" birthday on December 25th.



The following are the characteristics of the "Sun of God"

• In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the Sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
  
  
• The Sun is the "Light of the World."
  
  
• The Sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
  
  
• The Sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
  
  
• The Sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
  
  
• The Sun "walks on water."
  
  
• The Sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the Sun must pass.
  
  
• The Sun at 12:00 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
  
  
• The Sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
  
  
• The Sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.

The Egyptian Pharaohs also identified themselves in life with the Sun god Horus and in death with his father Osiris. These myths identified the Pharaoh as both the earthly form of the royal falcon god who triumphed over his enemies and the pious son who claims the throne after the death of his father. Whilst Osiris ruled the dead in the underworld, Horus ruled the living. Horus and Osiris, just like Jesus, became interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are one"). Horus, who predates the Christ by 3000 years shared the following in common with him.

Ten things Christians stole from Pagans

"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense."

-- Chapman Cohen

1. Jesus
   Jesus and all the events of his life were copied from numerous Pagan stories. The timing, significance and manner of his death, resurrection and birth were taken from the gods Attis, Orpheus, Heracles, Mithra and Dionysus. Even his titles, such as “the Lamb of God” were taken from previous material. All of his miracles were common tricks of Pagans before his time as well. Attis was crucified 200 years before Jesus supposedly was.
2. Virgin birth
   Pagan sun gods and harvest gods were traditionally born of virgins, often a virgin temple priestess...
3. Mary
   Many different ancient cultures used “Mary” or a derivative of that name is the name of their goddess who bore god. This was also the ritual name of the temple harlots of the time who would have sex with those who made offerings to the temple in exchange for a symbolic union with the goddess, whom they were said to represent, just as the priest is the direct representative of God in Christian cosmology. All temple priestesses were considered to be “virgins” despite their many sex partners because the laity were not having sex with the woman, but rather with the Goddess.
4. Christmas
   No one really knows when Jesus was born, possibly because he was not, so the Catholics, in a bid to convert Pagans, set the date of his birth on the Winter Solstice, which is the day when sun gods of many pre-Christian cultures were said to have been born as it is the shortest day of the year and thus signifies light overcoming dark. The tree and mistletoe are also of Pagan origin.
5. The Cross and the Fish
   The cross, other than a symbol of torture, is a symbol of the lingam, or phallus. The Christian cross differs significantly from the Egyptian cross of life which also includes the yoni, the feminine principle. The fish, also a yoni symbol, was originally a symbol of the goddess as well.
6. Easter
   Easter was named for the Saxon Goddess Eostre. The Easter Bunny and the eggs left for good children are German Pagan myths. The image of the god buried in his tomb rising to live again on Easter is a Pagan one. This day marked spring and, therefore, rebirth.
7. Eucharist
   Wine has been used as a symbol for divine blood in many pre-Christian cultures. For instance, worshippers of Dionysus drank it in communion, but Jews, like Jesus and his followers, were strongly opposed to such rituals. Pagans also used wine to symbolize the blood of the goddess, from which all life was nourished. Followers of Osiris ate bread used to symbolize his flesh.
8. Marriage
   Early Christians scorned the Jewish tradition of marriage which they inherited for being too Pagan and based on sexual union, which they saw as the most heinous of acts. Paul even suggests that he may have suffered self-inflicted castration; when someone asked if he was circumcised, he commented that the question did not apply to him. Marriage was added later on to help convert Pagans.
9. Valentine's Day
   Originally called, Lupercalia, this was a day when each person put their name into a drawing and the person who drew their name became their sexual partner for the day. The pieces of paper have been tamed down to be notes of love. Saint Valentine himself was invented in order to give a Christian meaning to the holiday.
10. The Trinity
    Pre-Christian Pagans also had a trinity; it was the Triple Goddess: Maiden, Mother and Crone. It represented all stages of the life cycle. The Fates were one version of this.

Note: Even the "Golden Rule" was ripped off, though from Buddhism rather than Pagansim. It makes one wonder what would be left if all of these things were stripped away!

Xapp s Religion Pages Ten things Christiansstole from Pagans​

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

On another thread, I made the statement that Jesus was a made up character.

Here's why I think he was.

1) The Gospels were written years after his supposed life, and they contradict each other on key points.

2) He is not mentioned by a lot of contemporary writers who should have noticed him.

3) He shares a lot of traits with other mythological figures.

1. The existence of the early church is established and it was close enough that the members and leaders would have been contemporaries.
2.

Well, that depends on when you think the "early church" was established. "Christians" aren't mentioned by pagan sources until well into the second century, and even then, there was confusion as to whom they were talking about. The Emperor Hadrian for instance, wrote that followers of Serapis called themselves "Christians".

In fact, it wasn't until the fourth century that the Church started to nail down which Gospels and Epistles were the officials ones.

That's just ignorant, so ignorant as to qualify as stupid

goyim want a pork treat?

You have a ton of chutzpah, for a shmendrik(google them). I'm gonna start smokin some pork BBQ tomorrow, you are welcome to some.