Zone1 Despite the Democrats' Latest attempt, Men cannot get pregnant.

[Mr. Friscus]

there needs to be rigious examination before any physician considers surgery for minors, with or without parental consent.

So you want kids to be guided towards surgery without the consent or knowledge of their parents?

 

[ClaireH]

I acknowledge you've stated this. I agree with the first sentence I'm not quite convinced about the second. Though I will concede the issue involves a lot of complexity and there is no one size fits all answer. I found this study on the issue of decision making in children and adolescents interesting and I agree there needs to be rigious examination before any physician considers surgery for minors, with or without parental consent.

To be more specific in the largely west Indian community I grew up most young adults had jobs, not necessarily cars and were expected to be contributing financially to the household.

You haven't posted any data suggesting most people can't make rational decisions concerning their health until 23.

To conclude though it seems we both agree gender dysphoria is a real thing. That hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery can be helpful to some (not all) experiencing various levels of gender dysphoria and that before any long lasting changes are made there needs to be rigorous examination of the patients mental health to ensure as best as possible that they are making an informed decision. Is that fair?

There are numerous studies supporting brain development that occurs during one’s third decade of life, and not before. I will admit I was wrong. No longer does data support average age of full understanding at 23 but at 25.

Current research data: “There have long been scientific studies that support the argument that full brain development doesn’t happen until the age of 25.”

Fact Check: Full Brain Development Doesn’t Happen Until Age 25

Fact Check: Full Brain Development Doesn’t Happen Until Age 25

moguldom.com

There are umpteen sources out there if you don’t like that one by the way

 

[Curried Goats]

There are numerous studies supporting brain development that occurs during one’s third decade of life, and not before. I will admit I was wrong. No longer does data support average age of full understanding at 23 but at 25.

Current research data: “There have long been scientific studies that support the argument that full brain development doesn’t happen until the age of 25.”

Fact Check: Full Brain Development Doesn’t Happen Until Age 25

Fact Check: Full Brain Development Doesn’t Happen Until Age 25

moguldom.com

There are umpteen sources out there if you don’t like that one by the way

Full brain development isn't the same as unable to make informed decisions regarding your health. Those are two different things. I mean to follow you out to a natural conclusion you'd have to agree then that it would be unethical to charge anyone who committed a crime under the age of 25 as an adult. 21 year old rapists and murderers can't be expected to fully understand the weight of their actions. Is that what you believe?

 

[ClaireH]

Full brain development isn't the same as unable to make informed decisions regarding your health. Those are two different things. I mean to follow you out to a natural conclusion you'd have to agree then that it would be unethical to charge anyone who committed a crime under the age of 25 as an adult. 21 year old rapists and murderers can't be expected to fully understand the weight of their actions. Is that what you believe?

Valid point about lawyers trying to get their clients off a rape charge using lack of brain capabilities. That’ll take some time but I’ll look later about these types of defenses for violent criminals.

Even so, there’s a vast difference between using the lack of mental capability in a defense against a rape charge and considering mental capability to make a life-changing decision that is an elective process, meaning it’s not life-saving.

When I have time I’ll come back to provide evidence about what physiology shows regarding brain development at different ages, and to provide visual comparisons likely available.

 

[Curried Goats]

Valid point about lawyers trying to get their clients off a rape charge using lack of brain capabilities. That’ll take some time but I’ll look later about these types of defenses for violent criminals.

Even so, there’s a vast difference between using the lack of mental capability in a defense against a rape charge and considering mental capability to make a life-changing decision that is an elective process, meaning it’s not life-saving.

When I have time I’ll come back to provide evidence about what physiology shows regarding brain development at different ages, and to provide visual comparisons likely available.

I'm not the one questioning the mental capacity of people under 25, you are. I more than welcome the research simply because I love science but if you can't keep your arguments consistent there's no reason for me to think you honestly believe anything you're saying.

 

[ClaireH]

I'm not the one questioning the mental capacity of people under 25, you are. I more than welcome the research simply because I love science but if you can't keep your arguments consistent there's no reason for me to think you honestly believe anything you're saying.

Your post is a falsehood that I question the brain capacity of people under 25- totally bogus and you know it. I stated specifically that young people under the age of 23 (which is 2 years younger than current medical consensus at age 25) should not be making long-term decisions with their lives that is absolutely what you have suggested. I am not questioning there are proven ages and stages of brain development, stop being an obviously disingenuous poster and rephrasing what I’ve said to change the meaning.

“The prefrontal cortex is the only part of the brain that develops for a longer period. It is the only part of the brain that is developed in the end. It is estimated that the prefrontal cortex continues to develop till the age of 25.”

Prefrontal Cortex | What?, Development, Structure & Function

he prefrontal cortex is a part of the frontal lobe in our brain responsible for an array of vital functions, including executive functioning & memory.

human-memory.net

“The prefrontal part (of the brain) is the part that allows you to control your impulses, come up with a long-range strategy, and answer the question ‘What am I going to do with my life?’ That weighing of the future keeps changing into the 20s and 30s.” Dr. Jay Giedd lead researcher, NIMH Human Brain Development in Health Study

 

[BackAgain]

Current research data: “There have long been scientific studies that support the argument that full brain development doesn’t happen until the age of 25.”

Fact Check: Full Brain Development Doesn’t Happen Until Age 25

Fact Check: Full Brain Development Doesn’t Happen Until Age 25

moguldom.com

.

It doesn’t happen at all for some people. Ever. Just look at the postings of so many of our libtards.

 

[Curried Goats]

Your post is a falsehood that I question the brain capacity of people under 25- totally bogus and you know it. I stated specifically that young people under the age of 23 (which is 2 years younger than current medical consensus at age 25) should not be making long-term decisions with their lives that is absolutely what you have suggested. I am not questioning there are proven ages and stages of brain development, stop being an obviously disingenuous poster and rephrasing what I’ve said to change the meaning.

It's not unfair to ask you about the premise in your own link. Your first link wasn't at all about trans people, it was about an objector to people under the age of 25 being tried as adults. How is it unfair to ask if you agree with the premise of your own link and not fair to dismiss you and your argument when you can't even answer that simple question? Don't be silly.

“The prefrontal cortex is the only part of the brain that develops for a longer period. It is the only part of the brain that is developed in the end. It is estimated that the prefrontal cortex continues to develop till the age of 25.”

Prefrontal Cortex | What?, Development, Structure & Function

he prefrontal cortex is a part of the frontal lobe in our brain responsible for an array of vital functions, including executive functioning & memory.

human-memory.net

“The prefrontal part (of the brain) is the part that allows you to control your impulses, come up with a long-range strategy, and answer the question ‘What am I going to do with my life?’ That weighing of the future keeps changing into the 20s and 30s.” Dr. Jay Giedd lead researcher, NIMH Human Brain Development in Health Study

I'm not disagreeing with any part of those quotes, what I'm questioning is whether or not full prefrontal cortex development is necessary before we hold people accountable for themselves and their actions and whether or not that's something you really agree with. I mean just because one biological part of your body fully developes doesn't mean that we as a society think you're fully ready to take that task on. Let's look at it from the reverse. Young girls bodies develope quickly and they can start having periods as young as 11. Does that mean you think they're ready to start fertilizing those eggs?

 

[ClaireH]

Full brain development isn't the same as unable to make informed decisions regarding your health. Those are two different things. I mean to follow you out to a natural conclusion you'd have to agree then that it would be unethical to charge anyone who committed a crime under the age of 25 as an adult. 21 year old rapists and murderers can't be expected to fully understand the weight of their actions. Is that what you believe?

I hate redundancy but I’ll cover it again for you: there are four basic stages to brain development and logical thinking is the last stage of development which continues until the third decade of one’s lifetime. I used old statistics about age 23 being the average age of full development of logical capabilities but now I’ve learned it’s 25 and many studies support it’s above the age of 25.

Your statement about making “Informed decisions about your health” is ludicrous. We are not talking about a teenager who comes down with mono and the doctor recommends bedrest until feeling better. We are talking about a life altering genitalia change that via hormones manifests other life altering physical conditions that if someone later regrets the surgery, like many are doing, they cannot reverse these effects.

When a young person decides they are convinced they want gender transition surgery with hormonal changes required to do so, it’s logical they wait to make this long-term decision in case they change their mind.

I know teenagers well. I have a degree in adolescent psychology and in my personal life I have taught teenagers, coached teenaged girls, and chaperoned my daughter and her friends on numerous outings while she was a younger teen. It is an understatement to say that teenagers change their mind about things, in making huge decisions they will change their mind. What experience do you have in working with teenagers?

 

[Curried Goats]

I hate redundancy but I’ll cover it again for you: there are four basic stages to brain development and logical thinking is the last stage of development which continues until the third decade of one’s lifetime. I used old statistics about age 23 being the average age of full development of logical capabilities but now I’ve learned it’s 25 and many studies support it’s above the age of 25.

I am not and have not disputed that the prefrontal cortex is the last part of the brain to reach full development or that it is responsible for rational thinking and decision making.

What I'm wondering if you can answer for me is whether or not full development is necessary before we deem individuals biologically developed enough to take responsibility for themselves. You don't seem to have a real answer for that and certainly not a consistent one.

Your statement about making “Informed decisions about your health” is ludicrous.

Maybe, but you need more than ad hominems to prove that.

We are not talking about a teenager who comes down with mono and the doctor recommends bedrest until feeling better.

Or red herrings...

We are talking about a life altering genitalia change that via hormones manifests other life altering physical conditions that if someone later regrets the surgery, like many are doing, they cannot reverse these effects.

I'm well aware of what we are discussing so stop deflecting and hemming and hawing and answer my actual questions with objective, rational, answers.

When a young person decides they are convinced they want gender transition surgery with hormonal changes required to do so, it’s logical they wait to make this long-term decision in case they change their mind.

Young Person is very vague term but I agree that patients, parents and doctors should do rigorous examination, both physical and mental to ensure this is the best course of action before preceding.

I know teenagers well. I have a degree in adolescent psychology and in my personal life I have taught teenagers, coached teenaged girls, and chaperoned my daughter and her friends on numerous outings while she was a younger teen.

See martybegan, this is what an actual Appeal to Authority fallacy looks like. None of the above matters to the substance of the debate. Neither does it matter that I too have a daughter as well as nieces and cousins who I have cared for throughout my life. Including as a chaperone on school trips and parties.

It is an understatement to say that teenagers change their mind about things, in making huge decisions they will change their mind. What experience do you have in working with teenagers?

I raised a wonderful one into an exceptional young woman who is an excellent parent herself now.

 

[Concerned American]

When physicians and scientists talk about about men getting pregnant they are referring to people who are biologically female, with female reproductive systems who are transitioning to a more masculine social appearance to fit their masculine identities

Glad we got that cleared up. Now that you've accepted that your so-called experts are referring to mental illness and not to "men" getting pregnant, maybe you can move on to reality.

 

[Curried Goats]

Glad we got that cleared up. Now that you've accepted that your so-called experts are referring to mental illness and not to "men" getting pregnant, maybe you can move on to reality.

They don't refer to it as a mental illness. Their brains aren't ill, they're different.

 

[ClaireH]

I am not and have not disputed that the prefrontal cortex is the last part of the brain to reach full development or that it is responsible for rational thinking and decision making.

What I'm wondering if you can answer for me is whether or not full development is necessary before we deem individuals biologically developed enough to take responsibility for themselves. You don't seem to have a real answer for that and certainly not a consistent one.

Maybe, but you need more than ad hominems to prove that.

Or red herrings...

I'm well aware of what we are discussing so stop deflecting and hemming and hawing and answer my actual questions with objective, rational, answers.

Young Person is very vague term but I agree that patients, parents and doctors should do rigorous examination, both physical and mental to ensure this is the best course of action before preceding.

See martybegan, this is what an actual Appeal to Authority fallacy looks like. None of the above matters to the substance of the debate. Neither does it matter that I too have a daughter as well as nieces and cousins who I have cared for throughout my life. Including as a chaperone on school trips and parties.

I raised a wonderful one into an exceptional young woman who is an excellent parent herself now.

If this is true from your post: “I am not and have not disputed that the prefrontal cortex is the last part of the brain to reach full development or that it is responsible for rational thinking and decision making.”

The discussion has gone in the way of truth, and my premise supported.

My real life examples of working with and caring for teenagers is 100% relevant supporting my take about how dramatically within a few years, even within one year, the mind of a teenager can change. I’ve worked with hundreds of teenagers and have seen this demonstrated over and over.

Your statement that young person is vague is your weak effort to distract from what I wrote- “young people” includes those under age 25 when it has to do with logical thought for long-term planning. I was quite clear and you are selectively blind or again attempting to deflect from my words.

 

[Curried Goats]

If this is true from your post: “I am not and have not disputed that the prefrontal cortex is the last part of the brain to reach full development or that it is responsible for rational thinking and decision making.”

The discussion has gone in the way of truth, and my premise supported.

Just as it's true the some young girls are biolgically capable of getting pregnant at the age of 11. I don't think either of us thinks this makes them ready for pregnancy however. And your attempts to claim victory are humors. Your premise is my own. That gender dysphoria is real and the people suffering from it in varying degrees should be treated ethically and responsibly.

My real life examples of working with and caring for teenagers is 100% relevant supporting my take about how dramatically a few years, even within one year, the mind of a teenager can change.

No your life experience is not relevant. We established before this already and you agreed, that development isn't one size fits all and that we all mentally mature at different rates.

Your statement that young person is vague is your weak effort to distract from what I wrote- young people includes those under age 25 when it has to do with logical thought for long-term planning. I was clear and you are selectively blind or again attempting to deflect from my words.

And I'm trying to pin you down on an actual consistent argument. If you don't think 23 is old enough to make informed decisions regarding their own health why do you seem to think it's okay to hold people under 25 criminally responsible as adults for their actions?

 

[ClaireH]

Just as it's true the some young girls are biolgically capable of getting pregnant at the age of 11. I don't think either of us thinks this makes them ready for pregnancy however. And your attempts to claim victory are humors. Your premise is my own. That gender dysphoria is real and the people suffering from it in varying degrees should be treated ethically and responsibly.

No your life experience is not relevant. We established before this already and you agreed, that development isn't one size fits all and that we all mentally mature at different rates.

And I'm trying to pin you down on an actual consistent argument. If you don't think 23 is old enough to make informed decisions regarding their own health why do you seem to think it's okay to hold people under 25 criminally responsible as adults for their actions?

Of course one’s life experience with teenagers is relevant to this discussion, precisely relevant at that. I have observed teenagers in very wide variety of settings over many years and it has helped me learn, over and over through direct observation, how much they change their minds over significant life issues.

Let me clear for the last time: young people under the age of 25 should not be making life-altering decisions (and certainly not against paternal concerns going out of state to have it done) that have permanent physical changes. Until a person reaches full capability of rational thought- that’s a no from me.

I will never change my position and that position comes from caring about the long-term consequences and knowing about the great potential of teenagers changing their minds completely.
It’s happening and you cannot deny it that many people in their early 20’s are regretting their decision.

What motivates you in this discussion, is this a political issue for you? Quite ironic that I’ve asked you several questions but you ignored those, and double down on things I’ve answered and you state that I haven’t answered- typical leftist ploy to ignore what you have seen and drive the topic into the mud. I’m tired of going around in circles with you. Keep your ignorance close, it’s possible that’s all you have in life.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

What I'm wondering if you can answer for me is whether or not full development is necessary before we deem individuals biologically developed enough to take responsibility for themselves. You don't seem to have a real answer for that and certainly not a consistent one.

You're in some back-and-forths, but I think this is an important aspect you need to clarify without dancing. Human biology shows when the prefrontal cortex is fully developed, and many of our systems and institutions reflect that.

I call on you to answer these questions, and go from there.

1. When should kids be allowed to "take responsibility for themselves". What age, and why?

2. What does "Taking reponsibility for yourself" mean?

 

[flacaltenn]

Full brain development isn't the same as unable to make informed decisions regarding your health. Those are two different things. I mean to follow you out to a natural conclusion you'd have to agree then that it would be unethical to charge anyone who committed a crime under the age of 25 as an adult. 21 year old rapists and murderers can't be expected to fully understand the weight of their actions. Is that what you believe?

That assumption is WAAAY past your credentials. Brain development is a part of maturing. Just as hormone development is a litmus test for making sex/gender decisions. And you're analogy to rapists and murderers is only applicable to HARSH and unusual punishments for juveniles that commit those crimes. More kids under 25 kill themselves because of faulty gender decisions than commit murder or rape if you discount the gang banger demographic.

BOTH the glories of "gang life" and the wonders of gender confusion shouldn't be handled in the general school curriculum. They should be identified and handed over to proper authorities and medical/psych consultation in conjunction with parental involvement.

 

[Curried Goats]

You're in some back-and-forths, but I think this is an important aspect you need to clarify without dancing. Human biology shows when the prefrontal cortex is fully developed, and many of our systems and institutions reflect that.

What does this mean? The full frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25 and yet as a society we allow teenagers to marry, get pregnant, have jobs, drive cars, drink alcohol and join the military and get convicted as adults all before that age. What part of our systems and institutions are you referring to? But sure, I'll answer your questions. Question is are you going to answer these questions as well?

I call on you to answer these questions, and go from there.

1. When should kids be allowed to "take responsibility for themselves". What age, and why?

Depends on what you're asking them to take responsibility for. Me and my brothers all had full time jobs at 16. My daughter started working 17 not because she needed to but because she wanted to. My mother had a rule that as long as we had jobs and were paying bills we were adults and she treated us as such. By 16 - 17 I trusted my daughter to be able to make most of her own choices and those she wasn't sure of she usually did a good job seeking my council or the council of her many Aunts and Uncles. Honestly though it varies depending on the person.

Do you have kids? Did you make all their decisions for them until they were 25?

2. What does "Taking reponsibility for yourself" mean?

It means understanding that you have to live with the consequences of your choices and actions. What do you think it means?

That assumption is WAAAY past your credentials. Brain development is a part of maturing. Just as hormone development is a litmus test for making sex/gender decisions.

What assumption are you accusing me of making? I keep seeking clarification from ClaireH on her ideas of brain development because since she's the one who introduced the topic and I can't pin her down to a consistent answer.

And you're analogy to rapists and murderers is only applicable to HARSH and unusual punishments for juveniles that commit those crimes. More kids under 25 kill themselves because of faulty gender decisions than commit murder or rape if you discount the gang banger demographic.

Why are we discounting demographics or carving out exceptions before you make a rational argument for why?

And while it's true that a higher percentage of children suffering from gender dysphoria end up committing suicide, as far as I know that rate is higher due to receiving higher amounts of vitriol and bullying, not because they feel they made the wrong decision. But if you have data suggesting this is the case then let's see it.

BOTH the glories of "gang life" and the wonders of gender confusion shouldn't be handled in the general school curriculum.

Equating gang life with teaching kids to be accepting of who they are shows exactly where your biases are.

They should be identified and handed over to proper authorities and medical/psych consultation in conjunction with parental involvement.

And if these psychologists suspect that a child might suffer gender dysphoria then more than likely they are going to recommend therapy and maybe some form of hormone blockers or even further intervention depending how deep the dysphoria is.

 

[ClaireH]

What does this mean? The full frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25 and yet as a society we allow teenagers to marry, get pregnant, have jobs, drive cars, drink alcohol and join the military and get convicted as adults all before that age. What part of our systems and institutions are you referring to? But sure, I'll answer your questions. Question is are you going to answer these questions as well?

Depends on what you're asking them to take responsibility for. Me and my brothers all had full time jobs at 16. My daughter started working 17 not because she needed to but because she wanted to. My mother had a rule that as long as we had jobs and were paying bills we were adults and she treated us as such. By 16 - 17 I trusted my daughter to be able to make most of her own choices and those she wasn't sure of she usually did a good job seeking my council or the council of her many Aunts and Uncles. Honestly though it varies depending on the person.

Do you have kids? Did you make all their decisions for them until they were 25?

It means understanding that you have to live with the consequences of your choices and actions. What do you think it means?

What assumption are you accusing me of making? I keep seeking clarification from ClaireH on her ideas of brain development because since she's the one who introduced the topic and I can't pin her down to a consistent answer.

Why are we discounting demographics or carving out exceptions before you make a rational argument for why?

And while it's true that a higher percentage of children suffering from gender dysphoria end up committing suicide, as far as I know that rate is higher due to receiving higher amounts of vitriol and bullying, not because they feel they made the wrong decision. But if you have data suggesting this is the case then let's see it.

Equating gang life with teaching kids to be accepting of who they are shows exactly where your biases are.

And if these psychologists suspect that a child might suffer gender dysphoria then more than likely they are going to recommend therapy and maybe some form of hormone blockers or even further intervention depending how deep the dysphoria is.

First I would like to clarify that I am not a butterfly; you will not be “pinning me down” on anything. I imagine you might be the type that would do that, have a whole board of butterflies just so you could look at them closely and inspect them. Sorry, but I find that a bit freakish.

Now, to attempt to come up with an answer that would appease you will be challenging. I’m not challenged it’s your limited mindset. I consider myself an open minded thinker and admit having trouble with closed minded types. If you and I were on a jury, you’d be focused on “pinning down” one of the jurors who went against your position, wasting time, while I would fight for fairness and common sense for the accused and outcome. Two very different mindsets and that’s just one example.

I’m sticking to what I said, yet again, no long-term surgery of switching genders should be taken until full development of understanding. I’ve been clear about when that has been scientifically determined.

Do I foresee any changes of law for 18 being the age of a possible draft? No, unfortunately, at least not in our current time. I have never supported that 18, 19, and even 20 year olds possibly give their lives up for the country. Drinking age? For years I have stated it should be 23 not 21, but that was before I learned that 25 is actually full development. I can say with certainty, however, that the drinking age will never be raised lol

So I don’t remember your other questions. I’ve followed along with what you’ve been talking about with other informed posters. Again, I believe it’s the problem of you trying to “pin me down” it won’t happen lol

 

[Curried Goats]

First I would like to clarify that I am not a butterfly; you will not be “pinning me down” on anything. I imagine you might be the type that would do that, have a whole board of butterflies just so you could look at them closely and inspect them. Sorry, but I find that a bit freakish.

Yea... I was just trying to get a straight answer from you.

Now, to attempt to come up with an answer that would appease you will be challenging. I’m not challenged it’s your limited mindset.

A consistent answer will do.

I consider myself an open minded thinker and admit having trouble with closed minded types. If you and I were on a jury, you’d be focused on “pinning down” one of the jurors who went against your position, wasting time, while I would fight for fairness and common sense for the accused and outcome. Two very different mindsets and that’s just one example.

Well how virtuous of you.

I’m sticking to what I said, yet again, no long-term surgery of switching genders should be taken until full development of understanding. I’ve been clear about when that has been scientifically determined.

That hasn't been scientifically determined. What we both agree on and what science agrees on is that the prefrontal cortex is the last part of the brain to develop, that this happens usually around the age of 25 and that the prefrontal cortex is responsible for decision making. That's it. Whether or not full prefrontal cortex development is necessary before people are deemed capable of making their own decisions is not something you've proven there is scientific consensus on.

Do I foresee any changes of law for 18 being the age of a possible draft? No, unfortunately, at least not in our current time. I have never supported that 18, 19, and even 20 year olds possibly give their lives up for the country. Drinking age? For years I have stated it should be 23 not 21, but that was before I learned that 25 is actually full development. I can say with certainty, however, that the drinking age will never be raised lol

I didn't ask you any questions about the law. I asked about your personal opinion. If you don't think people should drink or join the military until 25 fair enough, that would at least be some consistency. I certainly don't agree but it is consistent.

So I don’t remember your other questions. I’ve followed along with what you’ve been talking about with other informed posters. Again, I believe it’s the problem of you trying to “pin me down” it won’t happen lol

The other questions were about trying people under the age of 25 as adults, marriage and pregnancy.