Critics of Israel: What WOULD have been the Proper Response by Israel to the Hamas Attacks?

[Shusha]

I think the main mistake of this reasoning is concentration only on Gaza, while ignoring other parts of 'Palestinian autonomy'. Yes, Israel withdrew from Gaza a while back, but it still occupies the other part of the 'Palestinian' land.

And that is the main issue. Hamas is a terrorist organization and their recent attacks should be only condemned. But for the Arab world (and beyond) they are freedom fighters who fight against Israeli occupation of the Arab lands.

Well, I am pleased that it occurred to someone to bring this up! I was waiting. Grin.

But it's not as though the governing bodies of Gaza and Areas A/B are besties, after all. It's a frail argument that they are all on the same team and have each other's backs. Let alone having a mutually agreed upon path to peace and liberation.

The main point of contention is the end goal. Just what is "Arab land"? How will we all know when the "occupation" has ended? Do different groups have different answers to that question?

 

[ESay]

Well, I am pleased that it occurred to someone to bring this up! I was waiting. Grin.

But it's not as though the governing bodies of Gaza and Areas A/B are besties, after all. It's a frail argument that they are all on the same team and have each other's backs. Let alone having a mutually agreed upon path to peace and liberation.

The main point of contention is the end goal. Just what is "Arab land"? How will we all know when the "occupation" has ended? Do different groups have different answers to that question?

It doesn't matter how the 'Palestinian autonomy' is politically divided currently. I have little doubts that 'the Arab street' when asked Hamas and Fatah will choose the former one.

What is 'the Arab lands'? Yeah, that is a good question. Some consider all of Israel to be the Arab land, some are ready to narrow them to the Gaza Strip and all of the West Bank with East Jerusalem. There is also the Golan Heights, as a separate issue.

 

[JoeB131]

Well, I am pleased that it occurred to someone to bring this up! I was waiting. Grin.

But it's not as though the governing bodies of Gaza and Areas A/B are besties, after all. It's a frail argument that they are all on the same team and have each other's backs. Let alone having a mutually agreed upon path to peace and liberation.

The main point of contention is the end goal. Just what is "Arab land"? How will we all know when the "occupation" has ended? Do different groups have different answers to that question?

My view- The ideal solution is for the Zionist Squatters to return to Europe, where they came from.

Of course, there is a split between Hamas and Fatah because, for the last 14 years, Bibi has empowered Hamas as a foil to Fatah and the Palestinian Authority, including allowing Arab states to transfer money to Hamas. That way, he was able to not negotiate in good faith on a two-state solution.

Now he's sitting there with his mouth agape, just like America did when those "Freedom fighters" we sponsored in Afghanistan turned around and blew up some of our favorite buildings.

 

[Billo_Really]

In fact, I do. I'm just assigning responsibility where it is due. Hamas jihadis are not their friends. Free Gaza from Hamas.

Why don't you stop settler violence on Palestinians?

 

[Shusha]

Why don't you stop settler violence on Palestinians?

What, from my lazyboy in Canada? I condemn violence committed by Israeli citizens. Full stop.

 

[Ringo]

A clue as to why the US is so worried about Israel. It's called ZOG. Zionist Occupation Government. It is a well-known conspiracy theory that Jews have substituted the US government and stolen their country from real Americans and make them work for Israel. Of course, all these are fairy tales that are popular among various criminals like the Aryan Brotherhood. It has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

 

[JoeB131]

What, from my lazyboy in Canada? I condemn violence committed by Israeli citizens. Full stop.

But violence by the Israeli government against women and children you are fine with.

A clue as to why the US is so worried about Israel. It's called ZOG. Zionist Occupation Government. It is a well-known conspiracy theory that Jews have substituted the US government and stolen their country from real Americans and make them work for Israel. Of course, all these are fairy tales that are popular among various criminals like the Aryan Brotherhood. It has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

It's more complex than that.

Yes, there are a lot of Jews in government - both parties - guiding our policy.
But it's also that Israel is also treated favorably in the American press.
And that we have fundamentalist Christian Assholes who think we need Jews in Palestine so Jesus can come back.

 

[Shusha]

But violence by the Israeli government against women and children you are fine with.

Not so. The war between the Israeli government and the Gaza government - the unspeakable evil which is Hamas - is necessary and tragic. It is necessary for the protection of the Israeli and Jewish people. It is necessary for the freedom and pursuit of self-determination and peace for the people of Gaza. It is my sincere hope that the guardians of the children of Gaza remove them from danger and take them to safe shelter while Israel excises the evil jihadis. If the people of Gaza fail to protect their children, I will be hurt and angry. But I will not abide with shifting the responsibility away from those who caused them harm: Hamas for their acts of vile evil and the people of Gaza who failed them.

 

[JoeB131]

Not so. The war between the Israeli government and the Gaza government - the unspeakable evil which is Hamas - is necessary and tragic. It is necessary for the protection of the Israeli and Jewish people. It is necessary for the freedom and pursuit of self-determination and peace for the people of Gaza. It is my sincere hope that the guardians of the children of Gaza remove them from danger and take them to safe shelter while Israel excises the evil jihadis. If the people of Gaza fail to protect their children, I will be hurt and angry. But I will not abide with shifting the responsibility away from those who caused them harm: Hamas for their acts of vile evil and the people of Gaza who failed them.

Nice victim blaming!

The Israelis have a choice whether or not to escalate this beyond a reasonable level, and they are choosing not to. They won't get most of the Hamas leadership, but they will make a Hamas supporter out of every relative of a child who is killed in a bombed school or hospital.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Nice victim blaming!

The Israelis have a choice whether or not to escalate this beyond a reasonable level, and they are choosing not to. They won't get most of the Hamas leadership, but they will make a Hamas supporter out of every relative of a child who is killed in a bombed school or hospital.

What would have been the reasonable level? That was the question for this thread.

Israel has 1,300 of their people murdered in a surprise attack. The correct response is . . .

 

[Shusha]

Nice victim blaming!

The Israelis have a choice whether or not to escalate this beyond a reasonable level, and they are choosing not to. They won't get most of the Hamas leadership, but they will make a Hamas supporter out of every relative of a child who is killed in a bombed school or hospital.

No, the Israeli and Jewish people are the victims of this evil act perpetrated against them. Their actions AFTER the evil are a response to the evil. What could possibly be the "reasonable" response to the unspeakable acts committed against the people of Israel?

And again, no. I will not shift responsibility away from those responsible.

 

[ESay]

What would have been the reasonable level? That was the question for this thread.

Israel has 1,300 of their people murdered in a surprise attack. The correct response is . . .

That number has been already exceeded.

 

[Seymour Flops]

That number has been already exceeded.

And therefore, what?

 

[ESay]

And therefore, what?

I think Israel didn't have much choice other than doing what he already did. What answer is more acute is what to do next or what result the current war should be ended with.

 

[Ringo]

Never berate governments and politicians. It's useless. They are merely enforcers of the will of the ruling class. Direct your anger at the real culprits of what is happening.

 

[Shusha]

That number has been already exceeded.

I think it is important to move away from this incorrect idea that proportionality is a tit-for-tat/death-for-death set of numerical values. Legally, proportionality in war is a cost vs. benefit ratio: incidental harm as related to the military objective.

Israel's military objective, given the enormity of the evil perpetrated on them, is to eliminate the possibility of Hamas conducting attacks like this in the future. This will entail destroying all of the intelligence, material, and infrastructure used to commit attacks, as well as killing or capturing a large percentage of the combatants. Then maintaining military control and blockades for a period of time to prevent re-supply. All while minimizing incidental harm.

 

[Seymour Flops]

I think Israel didn't have much choice other than doing what he already did. What answer is more acute is what to do next or what result the current war should be ended with.

Yes, there are really two options, with an infinite number of variations of each. Neither are good options, so the idea will be to decide which one is least bad.

The Israelis could pound Gaza for a little longer and then say, we've paid them back, that should teach them etc. But, that would be followed by waiting for the inevitable next time, which may be far worse, with dirty bombs or other mass destruction.

Israel could press the war to a conclusion that will put an end to Hamas terror. Because Hamas is so ruthless about sacrificing Arabs in Palestine to protect themselves, a good part of the population would have to be wiped out in pursuing them. Plus that might bring other terrorists organizations into the war, or even another Muslim nation like Iran.

 

[surada]

It wasn’t by Force; MORON The Arabs INITIATED the War . Why don’t you go to Russia and tell them they have to leave the parts of Ukraine they OCCUPY?!

Israel funds Hamas through Qatar.

Aipac contributions to US politicians.

Pro-Israel Recipients

See aggregated party breakdowns and incumbency status of recipients of contributions from Pro-Israel industries/interest groups for every election cycle from 1998 to 2024.

www.opensecrets.org

 

[rylah]

Are there over 400,000 people homeless in Israel because of Hamas?

I didn't think so.

Baruch HaShem, our people take care for each other.
Evacuated Israelis are given shelter and support.

How many more will Hamas sacrifice?

 

[JoeB131]

What would have been the reasonable level? That was the question for this thread.

Israel has 1,300 of their people murdered in a surprise attack. The correct response is . . .

Throw out Bibi for empowering Hamas for over a decade.

Then MAYBE you send in commando teams to take out the Hamas leadership.

Baruch HaShem, our people take care for each other.
Evacuated Israelis are given shelter among people.

Oh, good, does that mean we can stop sending Money to Israel?