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CDZ Could (actual) Conservatives support this kind of single payer?

dblack

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Thank you. We can resume our discussion.
Whatever. I didn't insult you - I just made points you didn't like, and that's probably going to happen again.
So what are your questions to me? Or your suggestions, whatever? Never mind repeating them, I found them.

1. Eliminate tax deductions for health insurance
How would that help?
2. Eliminate all other tax and regulatory policies that push us into over-insuring, or otherwise promote employer-provided insurance.
Is that question about elminating 'employer provided insurance?
3. Use the Commerce Clause as intended and break up the regulatory fiefdoms that insurance companies have set up at the state level to suppress competition and protect their turf.
I would tent to agree in principle that insurance companies should be stripped of power to influence in general.
4. Re-examine health care regulation that artificially inflates prices. This will happen naturally once people get used to paying for their own healthcare once again.
What regulation?
Any regulations that require employers to provide health care for their employees, and any "incentives" that reward them for doing so.

Are you suggesting that people should not insure for HC?
No.
 

Donald H

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Whatever. I didn't insult you - I just made points you didn't like, and that's probably going to happen again.
Make all the points you like and I won't be insulted unless you intend to insult.
Any regulations that require employers to provide health care for their employees, and any "incentives" that reward them for doing so.
I get that's an ideological demand but I don't see how it would help? Wouldn't it exacerbate the problem more than help?
As a strictly matter of capitalist priorities, I would agree that it's not the best way of paying for people's HC.
But then, from a POV that considers collective bargaining as a true part of capitalism, it would have to be permissable.

Is that really addressing the topic.

the popular opinion is that America's HC is too high priced for many of the people to bear.
Your suggestions will have to eventually address that concern, if you agree.

And of course, my premise is that government can do it cheaper and more cost effective, at the same time as doing it better. That's my talking point! But let's pursue yours first.
 

dblack

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Make all the points you like and I won't be insulted unless you intend to insult.

I get that's an ideological demand but I don't see how it would help? Wouldn't it exacerbate the problem more than help?
That depends on what you think the problem is. In my view, the problem is that health care costs far more than it should. It costs more than in should because there's no downward price pressure. There's no downward price pressure because most of us aren't paying for our own health care. We are over-insured, and that drives prices higher and higher.
As a strictly matter of capitalist priorities, I would agree that it's not the best way of paying for people's HC.
But then, from a POV that considers collective bargaining as a true part of capitalism, it would have to be permissable.
Not sure what you mean here.
the popular opinion is that America's HC is too high priced for many of the people to bear.
Your suggestions will have to eventually address that concern, if you agree.
They do. See above.
And of course, my premise is that government can do it cheaper and more cost effective, at the same time as doing it better. That's my talking point! But let's pursue yours first.
Do what?
 

Flash

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I don't understand why republicans and most conservatives can't support a single payer system, ran by medical professionals. Although I do understand them not wanting it ran by our government. That's understandable. For the simple fact that the government can't run most things that benefit most of "we the people." A good example of this is the USD value. Now, $10hr is a poverty wage. Where as just south of the border, $10hr is an upper class wage.
But I digress. Fighting against a single payer system is nothing more than fighting in favor of health insurance companies. Who constantly screw the medical professionals out of a lot of money.
Healthcare has to be paid for, no matter who you are. Everyone is going to need medical help. And those that help you, will have to get paid. Insurance companies get paid by us. And they pay the MP (Medical professionals). But where they screw the MP's, is how much they pay the MPs for your care.
Example: When I was with Blue Cross Blue shield, I had an osteotomy on my knee. The hospital and doctor billed the insurance company over $100,000. That included all the doctor visits, surgeon visits, physical therapy & drugs. Blue Cross paid a little less than $3,000 in total. My doctor said that Medicare pays them better than Blue Cross. How sick is that?
Counting my premiums, the insurance company got paid a LOT more than the MP's that actually fixed my knee problem. Thousands more.
Let's be honest about this. Health insurance companies (or all of them) are nothing more than money brokers. We pay them and they pay the MP's what they want to pay them. Then they keep the rest for profits.
As a conservative, I'm always in support of cutting out the middle man.
I think the BEST way to solve this problem, is the MP's starting their own nationwide health insurance company. That way, they can own and operate within their own guidelines, with minimum government oversight. Of course, because there's trillions of dollars and millions of Americans involved, there'd have to be some oversight and regulations. But the ultimate decisions, providing there's no fraud or corruption involved, would remain with the MP's.
But in the end, the MP's (medical professionals) would be able to set their own rules, regs and policies. No more running tests that aren't actually necessary. No more endless doctor visits, being treated for something the doctors knows isn't going to be effective. (so they can get more money) No more fighting with the insurance companies as to why the doctor can't run a certain test.
Example: When my gaul stones were causing a lot of pain, the ER doctor wasn't allowed to do a sonogram because I didn't have fever. A simple test to see for sure that I had gaul stones, was not allowed by the insurance company. Not only would the test confirm the doctors suspicions. But would also show the size and scope of the stones. Which would determine if emergency surgery was needed. Or if I could wait to have the surgery.

Bottom line to this, IMO, health insurance companies are nothing more than money brokers and do nothing to help, treat or cure patients. So the ones getting 100% of the money, should be the MP's. If a single payer system is the only way to abolish insurance companies, then so be it.


You may not understand but we do.

We want to be responsible for own health care and we don't want to have to pay other people's bills. We sure as hell don't want the frigging government involved.

Any filthy ass single payer plan becomes nothing more than welfare for the filthy welfare queens that won't pay their own bills and that is despicable.

Sorry you can't afford a good insurance plan. If the filthy ass government ran it then it would be terrible.
 

Donald H

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That depends on what you think the problem is. In my view, the problem is that health care costs far more than it should. It costs more than in should because there's no downward price pressure.
We agree on that.
There's no downward price pressure because most of us aren't paying for our own health care. We are over-insured, and that drives prices higher and higher.
Downward pressure is certainly a part of capitalism but I don't see how that has anything to do with paying for your own HC. Maybe you can explain? Also keeping in mind that the reason for insurance is to absorb a high cost incident. Same as auto insurance in priinciple of how insurance is supposed to work. I'm not a big fan of any kind of insurance but I still understand it's necessary.
Not sure what you mean here.
Collective bargaining is a part of the capitalist system. Workers have bargained for employers to pay for their HC insurance.
They do. See above.
I don't see anything to disagree with on that issue.

Provide HC insurance, as is the practice in all other modern democracies. I understand that Americans don't trust government, so the first step has to be changing how government works so that trust can be restored.

My talking point still is: All the people can have high quality HC for a substantially lower cost than private insurance offers. I take it you don't agree?
 

dblack

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We agree on that.

Downward pressure is certainly a part of capitalism but I don't see how that has anything to do with paying for your own HC. Maybe you can explain?
Sure. When people are spending their own money, they look for ways to save. They ask about cheaper alternatives, and they have incentive to stay healthy so they don't need health care in the first place. If someone else is picking up the tab, those incentives go away. They'll pick the best option available, at every turn, without considering the cost. And prices will go up.
Collective bargaining is a part of the capitalist system.
No, as codified by labor law, it's not. It's been injected by socialists, as a deliberate attempt to undermine capitalism.
My talking point still is: All the people can have high quality HC for a substantially lower cost than private insurance offers. I take it you don't agree?
You take it correctly. :)
 
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YoursTruly

YoursTruly

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You may not understand but we do.

We want to be responsible for own health care and we don't want to have to pay other people's bills. We sure as hell don't want the frigging government involved.

Any filthy ass single payer plan becomes nothing more than welfare for the filthy welfare queens that won't pay their own bills and that is despicable.

Sorry you can't afford a good insurance plan. If the filthy ass government ran it then it would be terrible.

The first two sentences means you didn't understand anything I wrote.
 
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YoursTruly

YoursTruly

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You'll have to repeat your question. If it's a rational question and not just spam then you'll get an answer. I'm quite interested in your schtick you want to pursue.

Instead of me retyping the question, how about you re-reading it.
 
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YoursTruly

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The "some protection" you're asking for entails government control of the healthcare system. Or has so far at least. I wouldn't expect Congress to offer up anything else.

I have a bad habit of looking at the good side of things. Especially things that will never happen. As in an actual "free market" healthcare system in this country, ran by the healthcare professionals.
I'm a firm believer that the government should be so small, so minimally intrusive, that it's hardly noticed.

I forget that so many humans are crooked. This includes citizens and government officials.
 
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YoursTruly

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This is an abject lie: " Let's be honest about this. Health insurance companies (or all of them) are nothing more than money brokers. We pay them and they pay the MP's what they want to pay them. Then they keep the rest for profits.""

You should learn about a thing before you post on it.

LMAO. Without pointing out the slightest thing you think I'm wrong about, you just claim I'm wrong.
 

dblack

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Flash

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The first two sentences means you didn't understand anything I wrote.


I understand exactly what you were saying. You were bitching about how much health care was costing you. You want it to be a single payer because you think you can get some other people to carry some of your cost. Typical Left Wing greed. You think you are entitled to get health care simply because you are alive.

You can thank the government for the high cost of health care. It is the most regulated industry in the US and there is a tremendous cost for the consumer for that regulatory burden.

Liberals fuck up everything they touch and the best example of that is health care.
 
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YoursTruly

YoursTruly

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I understand exactly what you were saying. You were bitching about how much health care was costing you. You want it to be a single payer because you think you can get some other people to carry some of your cost. Typical Left Wing greed. You think you are entitled to get health care simply because you are alive.

You can thank the government for the high cost of health care. It is the most regulated industry in the US and there is a tremendous cost for the consumer for that regulatory burden.

Liberals fuck up everything they touch and the best example of that is health care.

Ok, let me explain it to you, since you're not going to read anything I've said.

Medical professionals, from coast to coast and border to border, starting their own nationwide health insurance company. Ran by their own people. I'm not talking about government ran healthcare. But healthcare ran by medical professionals. With minimal government oversight to ensue malpractice and price gouging is punished.

It's called the "free market." You may have heard of it.
 

dblack

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I understand exactly what you were saying. You were bitching about how much health care was costing you. You want it to be a single payer because you think you can get some other people to carry some of your cost.
I hate to say it, because doing so invokes the stereotype of the "stingy con", and that's not where I'm coming from, but this is exactly the problem with health care. It has been ever since insurance companies realized honesty in advertising was completely optional.

Pretty much everyone sees health "insurance" as a means of getting something for nothing. They buy into the line that it makes health care more affordable, even though it does the opposite. And nearly everyone thinks they'll come out ahead. Nevermind the fact that most people will lose - insurance can't exist without that reality. We still buy into the delusion that health insurance is a club you join to score cheap healthcare.

The biggest problem with healthcare today is that we're over-insured. And that's not going to change because most people have bought into the line that the opposite is true.
 

Flash

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Ok, let me explain it to you, since you're not going to read anything I've said.

Medical professionals, from coast to coast and border to border, starting their own nationwide health insurance company. Ran by their own people. I'm not talking about government ran healthcare. But healthcare ran by medical professionals. With minimal government oversight to ensue malpractice and price gouging is punished.

It's called the "free market." You may have heard of it.


You are confused about some things.

My Primary Care Physician used to run a one man office. It was him, a receptionist/bookkeeper and a nurse. He provided great healthcare at reasonable price. Then along came that filthy ass Obamacare. He could not operate his office under the regulation and was forced to join a large physician group and that really ran up the cost and decreased his level of care he could provide to his customers.

These insurance companies that you are bitching about are consumed with regulations that the filthy government imposed on him and there is no free market. The government won't even allow a free market to go over state lines.

The American people would have much lower health care cost and higher quality if there was no government interference in the marketplace.
 

Flash

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I hate to say it, because doing so invokes the stereotype of the "stingy con", and that's not where I'm coming from, but this is exactly the problem with health care. It has been ever since insurance companies realized honesty in advertising was completely optional.

Pretty much everyone sees health "insurance" as a means of getting something for nothing. They buy into the line that it makes health care more affordable, even though it does the opposite. And nearly everyone thinks they'll come out ahead. Nevermind the fact that most people will lose - insurance can't exist without that reality. We still buy into the delusion that health insurance is a club you join to score cheap healthcare.

The biggest problem with healthcare today is that we're over-insured. And that's not going to change because most people have bought into the line that the opposite is true.


Health insurance is just like any other commodity. The problem we have with health insurgence is there is no real free market because it is so heavily regulated by the filthy ass government.

The purpose of insurance is to buy into a pool where risk is spread out among a large group. For it to work the cost has to balanced between revenue and expenditures plus the cost of operating the venture. Regulations put artificial costs to the program.

It would be great to have a free market. We would get low cost insurance like we use to have decades ago before all this filthy government interference. However, that ship has sailed.
 

dblack

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You are confused about some things.

My Primary Care Physician used to run a one man office. It was him, a receptionist/bookkeeper and a nurse. He provided great healthcare at reasonable price. Then along came that filthy ass Obamacare. He could not operate his office under the regulation and was forced to join a large physician group and that really ran up the cost and decreased his level of care he could provide to his customers.

Or let's go back a few years before that. When I was a kid, our doctors didn't have to fuck with insurance at all. They sent up the bill and that was it. If we wanted insurance to be involved, we filed a claim.
These insurance companies that you are bitching about are consumed with regulations that the filthy government imposed on him and there is no free market. The government won't even allow a free market to go over state lines.
To be fair, they've written half those regulations themselves, in an effort to thwart competition and protect their turf.
The American people would have much lower health care cost and higher quality if there was no government interference in the marketplace.
Likely. But I don't rest my argument on that presumption. Even if you could prove, beyond all doubt, that we'd get better health care by letting government take over, I'd still prefer freedom.
 

dblack

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Health insurance is just like any other commodity. The problem we have with health insurgence is there is no real free market because it is so heavily regulated by the filthy ass government.
That's a large part of it, yes.
The purpose of insurance is to buy into a pool where risk is spread out among a large group.
That's not how actual insurance works. You're describing employer provided health insurance, which isn't insurance at all but rather employer funded healthcare.
For it to work the cost has to balanced between revenue and expenditures plus the cost of operating the venture. Regulations put artificial costs to the program.
Yep.
It would be great to have a free market. We would get low cost insurance like we use to have decades ago before all this filthy government interference. However, that ship has sailed.
So, what are you suggesting? Concede and socialize it completely?
 
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YoursTruly

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I hate to say it, because doing so invokes the stereotype of the "stingy con", and that's not where I'm coming from, but this is exactly the problem with health care. It has been ever since insurance companies realized honesty in advertising was completely optional.

Agreed
Pretty much everyone sees health "insurance" as a means of getting something for nothing. They buy into the line that it makes health care more affordable, even though it does the opposite. And nearly everyone thinks they'll come out ahead. Nevermind the fact that most people will lose - insurance can't exist without that reality. We still buy into the delusion that health insurance is a club you join to score cheap healthcare.

Imagine the cost of health insurance if 3/4 of their customers just dropped their health insurance.
Something for nothing? I supposed you're talking about low income people on the ACA.
The biggest problem with healthcare today is that we're over-insured. And that's not going to change because most people have bought into the line that the opposite is true.

I'm no insurance salesman, but I don't think there is such a thing as being over insured. At least not with healthcare. A cough or sniffle could be a sign of something more dangerous. Catching something like Cancer or diabetes early, can mean the difference between life and death. Besides all that, is it the patients fault that a doctor visit to check out that sniffle, costs $300 for the office visit and test? Blaming the patient for seeing a doctor about something, anything, is wrong on so many levels.
 

JustAGuy1

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LMAO. Without pointing out the slightest thing you think I'm wrong about, you just claim I'm wrong.

Are you really that dense? I highlighted the portion that is just a lie. Lord.
 

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