CDZ Could (actual) Conservatives support this kind of single payer?

[YoursTruly]

These insurance companies that you are bitching about are consumed with regulations that the filthy government imposed on him and there is no free market. The government won't even allow a free market to go over state lines.

Funny, because you can buy Blue Cross/Blue shield in almost any state in the US. In fact, a fella I know in Texas, worked for "Sanderson Farms." His insurance was "BC/BS of Mississippi."

I suppose it all depends on the insurance lobbyist and their favorite politicians, as to what people can/can't get.

 

[dblack]

Something for nothing? I supposed you're talking about low income people on the ACA.

Not necessarily. Even people who pay top dollar for insurance. Most of us see health "insurance" as a means of financing health care, some even believing it's the only way to afford health care at all.

I'm no insurance salesman, but I don't think there is such a thing as being over insured. At least not with healthcare.

It's dumb to maintain an insurance policy for things you can afford to pay for out of pocket. It's just paying a premium for a service you don't need. To wit, if you have 10k in savings, you should have insurance with a 10k deductible. Low-deductible insurance, when you don't need it, is a waste.

Not only would this be more cost efficient from an individual consumer perspective, it's what the market badly needs. The biggest problem with the health care market is that most of us aren't paying for most of our health care, so we don't care what it costs. We'll choose the best, most expensive, option at every turn. "I've been paying these high premiums, time to cash in!"

If we want to turn health care inflation around, we have to get back to a place where most people are paying for most of their health care. But our policy makers seem to determined to go in the other direction.

 

[Donald H]

Instead of me retyping the question, how about you re-reading it.

You want your health care at a reasonable price and you want somebody to administer it who will do that.
The rest of the world has discovered that the only way that can be done is by taking the profit out of the business and turning it into a social enterprise.

We've done that will our auto insurance in B.C. but we allow private business to try to compete. They do to some extent at greatly reduced profit. They're not permitted to supply the basic insurance though.

The result is that B.C has the best and the cheapest and the private companies in other provinces have had to sharpen their pencils. Private insurance companies are the same throughout the world.

 

[YoursTruly]

Not necessarily. Even people who pay top dollar for insurance. Most of us see health "insurance" as a means of financing health care, some even believing it's the only way to afford health care at all.

Under the current situation, it is the only way to afford healthcare.

It's dumb to maintain an insurance policy for things you can afford to pay for out of pocket. It's just paying a premium for a service you don't need. To wit, if you have 10k in savings, you should have insurance with a 10k deductible. Low-deductible insurance, when you don't need it, is a waste.

Insurance is one of those things that it's better to have and not need. Than to need and not have.

If we want to turn health care inflation around, we have to get back to a place where most people are paying for most of their health care. But our policy makers seem to determined to go in the other direction.

Most people like to get what they're paying for. Take someone who's paying $800 a month for health insurance. When they have a need to go see a doctor, they're going to let their insurance pay for as much as possible. For the simple fact that they're already paying $800 a month for it.

 

[YoursTruly]

You want your health care at a reasonable price and you want somebody to administer it who will do that.
The rest of the world has discovered that the only way that can be done is by taking the profit out of the business and turning it into a social enterprise.

We've done that will our auto insurance in B.C. but we allow private business to try to compete. They do to some extent at greatly reduced profit. They're not permitted to supply the basic insurance though.

The result is that B.C has the best and the cheapest and the private companies in other provinces have had to sharpen their pencils. Private insurance companies are the same throughout the world.

I don't care how the lights come on. I just want them to come on when I flip the switch. And as cheap as possible. See what I mean?
Doctors aren't going to go from Jekyll to Hyde because their checks come from the government, insurance company or private pay. They just want to get paid for what they do. And we want to be seen and treated for what ails us.
To us, it's a simple concept. Black & white. But to the politicians, bureaucrats and bean counters in the insurance industry, is a bowl of bowl of profits. Each with their hands in it, elbow deep.

 

[dblack]

Under the current situation, it is the only way to afford healthcare.

That's certainly what we hear from Congress and their buddies in the insurance lobby. But the truth is that most of us could afford to pay for most of our own basic health care (even at the currently inflated prices). The sooner we start doing that, the sooner prices will come back to something reasonable. If, instead, we continue to focus on how to get someone else to pay for it, the problem will get worse.

Insurance is one of those things that it's better to have and not need. Than to need and not have.

Insurance sales pitches notwithstanding, the less insurance the better. The sensible approach is to pay for as much of your own health care as you can, and carry insurance exclusively for catastrophic expenses that would bankrupt you otherwise.

Most people like to get what they're paying for. Take someone who's paying $800 a month for health insurance. When they have a need to go see a doctor, they're going to let their insurance pay for as much as possible. For the simple fact that they're already paying $800 a month for it.

Exactly. And that's the core problem with the health care market. Over-insuring gives consumers upside down incentives.

 

[Donald H]

Most people like to get what they're paying for. Take someone who's paying $800 a month for health insurance. When they have a need to go see a doctor, they're going to let their insurance pay for as much as possible. For the simple fact that they're already paying $800 a month for it.

Health care should be paid out of taxation.

But that can't work to the people's advantage unless the taxation is equitable.

If it is then all people get high quality HC and insurance for a fair price, with few or no deductibles added on.

 

[hadit]

I suppose if we all had a few hundred thousand $$$ in the bank, to spare, paying out of pocket would be the norm.

A regular physical exam might run to $200. That's $800 a year for a family of four. Try this, contact your doctor and offer him $600 cash every year to do physicals for a family of four. No insurance companies to wrangle, no co-pays to collect. You could probably get the deal and be able to cut hundreds off your insurance plan.

 

[Ivan88]

A big element in the problem is the American Medical Association that does all it can to limit the number of doctors, control & limit treatments, focus most everything on drugs & surgery, and milk the system.
Heath care since 1913 has been more and more of a racket.

 

[Donald H]

I don't care how the lights come on. I just want them to come on when I flip the switch. And as cheap as possible. See what I mean?
Doctors aren't going to go from Jekyll to Hyde because their checks come from the government, insurance company or private pay. They just want to get paid for what they do. And we want to be seen and treated for what ails us.
To us, it's a simple concept. Black & white. But to the politicians, bureaucrats and bean counters in the insurance industry, is a bowl of bowl of profits. Each with their hands in it, elbow deep.

I completely understand what you want because I have what you want.

In fact, the world's plans force doctors to perform more cost efficiently. One example of many is requiring a doctor to use a simple X-ray when the MRI isn't necessary. There are many more examples but that should serve to introduce the principle idea.

The downside is that some doctors run from Canada to the US. But do consider that the US currently gives them a place to run to. At the American people's expense of course.

Private HC will go to huge expense to keep the socialist wolves away from their doors.

The rest of the world took the side of the wolves.

 

[Flash]

That's a large part of it, yes.

That's not how actual insurance works. You're describing employer provided health insurance, which isn't insurance at all but rather employer funded healthcare.

Yep.

So, what are you suggesting? Concede and socialize it completely?

There are two kinds of health insureance. (Actually three kinds if you include government provided like Medicare.)

The first is as you said. Provided by employers and it is not real insurance. The company bears the cost as part of their compensation package. It is the actual cost plus a fee to an insurance provider to manage it.

There are also some real honest to goodness medical insurance programs. Not as many as their use to be. They are insurance pools where the risk is divided among members.

However, everything is burdened with tremendous government regulations and requirements. Both kinds of insurance. That has really run up the cost.

Putting general inflation aside there are two main culprit in soaring health care cost. First is technology. Much more expensive technology is used nowadays and we all have to pay for it. However, second is the burden of government requirements and as we saw with the tremendous increase in deductibles, co payments and premiums with Obamacare it is enormous. That is what drove my PCP to have to join a large physician group, that ran up his cost.

What I want is to have a free market in health care. I want the government to get out of the business of regulating health care. I also don't want any of my money being forced to be used to pay for other's people's health care. It is their responsibility to pay their bills, not mine.

 

[Donald H]

A regular physical exam might run to $200. That's $800 a year for a family of four. Try this, contact your doctor and offer him $600 cash every year to do physicals for a family of four. No insurance companies to wrangle, no co-pays to collect. You could probably get the deal and be able to cut hundreds off your insurance plan.

That's called 'free enterprise' and sometimes that can have the power to break through an inequitable system.
But would the doctor be blacklisted by his professional org?

 

[Donald H]

What I want is to have a free market in health care. I want the government to get out of the business of regulating health care. I also don't want any of my money being forced to be used to pay for other's people's health care. It is their responsibility to pay their bills, not mine.

There's no possible way for you to have everything you want.
But getting what you want will have to allow all the people to get what they want too. Would that be so bad?

 

[Flash]

There's no possible way for you to have everything you want.
But getting what you want will have to allow all the people to get what they want too. Would that be so bad?

Yes, you are correct. This country is becoming a Socialist shithole because of the greed and we all have to suffer the consequences.

 

[hadit]

That's called 'free enterprise' and sometimes that can have the power to break through an inequitable system.
But would the doctor be blacklisted by his professional org?

No, he would not. Doctors treat uninsured or self insured patients all the time. The key is to get people accustomed to taking care of themselves again.

 

[dblack]

Putting general inflation aside there are two main culprit in soaring health care cost. First is technology.

This makes no sense. Technological advances makes things cheaper, not more expensive.

However, second is the burden of government requirements ....

No disagreement there. But there's more to the story.

What I want is to have a free market in health care. I want the government to get out of the business of regulating health care. I also don't want any of my money being forced to be used to pay for other's people's health care. It is their responsibility to pay their bills, not mine.

Agreed.

But we're still over-insured and it's the biggest driver of health care inflation. The more we're paying for health care out of pocket, the better off we'll all be. The fixation on cost-shifting (trying to get someone else to pay for your healthcare) is the core problem.

 

[Donald H]

Putting general inflation aside there are two main culprit in soaring health care cost. First is technology. Much more expensive technology is used nowadays and we all have to pay for it.

In a free enterprise system there is negotiation between the high technology and government or some other party.
With pharmaceuticals for one instance, the technology side has a lot of room to move.

How can technologist companies be convinced that they have to lower their profits?

 

[Donald H]

No, he would not. Doctors treat uninsured or self insured patients all the time.

I can accept that's true. But has it had the effect of introducing competition that could make a difference? I think it's had the effect of maintaining the system in that a situation of poor people dying on the streets is avoided.
In any case, the system is failing and everybody knows it.

The key is to get people accustomed to taking care of themselves again.

That would make a huge difference in cost of health care. Is that happening? Is there some way to force people to make it happen.
How about forcing them to suffer the consequences? That might work if America keeps it hidden from any outside observers!
I think it would be just too messy to be a solution.

There's a better way and it doesn't require any real pain!

 

[Flash]

This makes no sense. Technological advances makes things cheaper, not more expensive.

No disagreement there. But there's more to the story.

Agreed.

But we're still over-insured and it's the biggest driver of health care inflation. The more we're paying for health care out of pocket, the better off we'll all be. The fixation on cost-shifting (trying to get someone else to pay for your healthcare) is the core problem.

I disagree about technology. Innovations in health care produced a lot of very expensive equipment that have a significant cost to them.

In general terms technology makes some things cheaper in the long run. The computer is a great example of that. Robotics is another example. However, if an imaging center gets in a million dollar device somebody has to pay for it and it did not take the place of something more expensive before it.

There is no production savings in health care technology like we see in other fields. Health care technology saves lives and that is the benefit but it cost money that is passed on to the user.

There is a significant cost increase for technology in health care but government regulations are the greatest contributors.

 

[Donald H]

Yes, you are correct. This country is becoming a Socialist shithole because of the greed and we all have to suffer the consequences.

Your HC system is so far completely safe from the socialist wolves at the door.

Yes, greed is a huge factor.

Is the cost of pharmaceuticals negotiable? Can those big companies supply it to the people at 1/10 the price is some instances?