CDZ Could (actual) Conservatives support this kind of single payer?

[dblack]

I disagree about technology. Innovations in health care produced a lot of very expensive equipment that have a significant cost to them.

The only reason we perceive that tech advances make health care more expensive is that we always expect the latest, most expensive tech. And that's because we're over insured.

 

[Donald H]

I disagree about technology. Innovations in health care produced a lot of very expensive equipment that have a significant cost to them.

In general terms technology makes some things cheaper in the long run. The computer is a great example of that. Robotics is another example. However, if an imaging center gets in a million dollar device somebody has to pay for it and it did not take the place of something more expensive before it.

There is no production savings in health care technology like we see in other fields. Health care technology saves lives and that is the benefit but it cost money that is passed on to the user.

There is a significant cost increase for technology in health care but government regulations are the greatest contributors.

Some HC technologies can cut their prices to 1/10 of what they are currently pricing their goods!

 

[Donald H]

The only reason we perceive that tech advances to make health care more expensive is that we always expect the latest, most expensive tech. And that's because we're over insured.

Bingo! You may have picked up on my comments of doctors using a cheap x-ray when an MRI isn't needed. Just one example for you. Can you think of more examples to prove your point?

 

[Donald H]

Bingo! You may have picked up on my comments of doctors using a cheap x-ray when an MRI isn't needed. Just one example for you. Can you think of more examples to prove your point?

You're over insured because you have to pay for the MRI.

 

[hadit]

I can accept that's true. But has it had the effect of introducing competition that could make a difference? I think it's had the effect of maintaining the system in that a situation of poor people dying on the streets is avoided.
In any case, the system is failing and everybody knows it.

That would make a huge difference in cost of health care. Is that happening? Is there some way to force people to make it happen.
How about forcing them to suffer the consequences? That might work if America keeps it hidden from any outside observers!
I think it would be just too messy to be a solution.

There's a better way and it doesn't require any real pain!

There is another way you haven't mentioned, and that is through cost sharing. There are organizations that operate on the basis that members pay a reasonable fee, then when they get a medical bill, the money from those fees pays it. It's not like insurance because they don't dictate prices. It allows the members to then purchase lower cost catastrophic care plans to cover the really big stuff while things like ER visits are covered. Example, MediShare.

 

[dblack]

Bingo! You may have picked up on my comments of doctors using a cheap x-ray when an MRI isn't needed. Just one example for you. Can you think of more examples to prove your point?

Many, but it hardly seems necessary. But the more important point is that, currently, neither doctors nor patients have any incentive to choose the cheaper option. Because everything is being funneled through insurance and no one is paying for their own health care.

 

[Donald H]

The confusing thing about this discussion is that the people are posting the talking points of the other side!

There's little interest in forcing the price down; it's all about justifying the prices.

 

[Donald H]

There is another way you haven't mentioned, and that is through cost sharing.

Yes, cost sharing is a great example! Everybody shares in the cost of HC for all the American people.

There are organizations that operate on the basis that members pay a reasonable fee, then when they get a medical bill, the money from those fees pays it. It's not like insurance because they don't dictate prices. It allows the members to then purchase lower cost catastrophic care plans to cover the really big stuff while things like ER visits are covered. Example, MediShare.

That's the group insurance concept that gives employers a lower price for insurance.
Both your suggestion and insurance companies 'dictate' prices. The difference is that your suggestion dictates fairer or lower prices.

Canada's universal HC is really just 'group' insurance on a large scale. The bigger the 'group', the better the price.

 

[Flash]

The only reason we perceive that tech advances make health care more expensive is that we always expect the latest, most expensive tech. And that's because we're over insured.

That is fine to say but you will whistle another tune when that expensive piece of equipment saves your life.

I had cancer about ten years ago. Some expensive equipment helped to cure me of the disease. Saved my life.

I don't mind paying for that.

 

[Donald H]

Many, but it hardly seems necessary.

You introdue the idea but now you want to lay it aside and call it unnecessary.

But the more important point is that, currently, neither doctors nor patients have any incentive to choose the cheaper option. Because everything is being funneled through insurance and no one is paying for their own health care.

A imaginary scenario: A person is stricken with some form of Cancer and the cost of treatment is $100,000. That person only has $10,000. (the average only has $2k.)

What does he do?
1. Get the treatment and be allowed to stiff the system for the money?
2. Die without getting the treatment?
3. Buy insurance that will pay for the treatment?

Are there any other options?
In Canada everybody pays for their HC.
In reality, I can't buy a loaf of bread without paying for it.

 

[Flash]

Some HC technologies can cut their prices to 1/10 of what they are currently pricing their goods!

Really? LOL!

 

[Donald H]

That is fine to say but you will whistle another tune when that expensive piece of equipment saves your life.

I had cancer about ten years ago. Some expensive equipment helped to cure me of the disease. Saved my life.

I don't mind paying for that.

America's medical outcome is poorer than most other modern countries but you pay more for it. If you had the money to pay for it, or insurance, you're the exception.

 

[Donald H]

Really? LOL!

Yes really!
Canada can buy some pharmaceuticals for 1/10 of the price Americans pay!

Not all of course and not the general rule, but just to serve as an example for you.
I think the rule would be something closer to 20 or 25%.

Would you have an interest in finding out?

 

[Flash]

Your HC system is so far completely safe from the socialist wolves at the door.

Yes, greed is a huge factor.

Is the cost of pharmaceuticals negotiable? Can those big companies supply it to the people at 1/10 the price is some instances?

I think that if we had a free market in health care, free from government interference, the same thing would happen that we see with other commodities. We would see the best quality at the lowest prices.

I am a Veteran. I am entitled to free health care from the government.

A few years ago I had cancer. I could have got it treated for free from the government.

Instead I chose to take care of it myself and pay the thousands of dollars in insurance co payments and deductibles.

I inquired as to the treatment facilities nearby. There were three of them and they all were excellent and they all wanted my business. I chose what I thought was the best one. I got high quality treatment in an expeditious time frame. The cancer was cured pretty damn quick. If I had waited for the government treatment I am sure the cancer would have advanced before getting the treatment.

Other veterans I know that used the government service told me they took years to get done what I got in a few months.

I trust market competition to produce a quality product as the lowest possible price a lot more than I trust some stupid government bureaucrat, whose boss is a politician elected by special interest groups, looking after my "best" interest.

You can't trust the government to provide quality health care and you can't trust them to regulate the health care business. They screw everything up and we all suffer.

 

[Donald H]

Yes really!
Canada can buy some pharmaceuticals for 1/10 of the price Americans pay!

Not all of course and not the general rule, but just to serve as an example for you.
I think the rule would be something closer to 20 or 25%.

Would you have an interest in finding out?

It seems like the rubber just met the road for America's HC apologists!

 

[Flash]

Yes really!
Canada can buy some pharmaceuticals for 1/10 of the price Americans pay!

Not all of course and not the general rule, but just to serve as an example for you.
I think the rule would be something closer to 20 or 25%.

Would you have an interest in finding out?

We had Trump trying to fix that but the Democrats stole the election and put an end to that.

 

[dblack]

That is fine to say but you will whistle another tune when that expensive piece of equipment saves your life.

Which other tune do you imagine I will whistle?

I had cancer about ten years ago. Some expensive equipment helped to cure me of the disease. Saved my life.

I don't mind paying for that.

Yeah. You seem to be missing the point.

 

[dblack]

You introdue the idea but now you want to lay it aside and call it unnecessary.

WTF are you talking about? All I said was that there are lots of example of what you're talking about. I see no point in listing them all. I was agreeing with you.

 

[Donald H]

I think that if we had a free market in health care, free from government interference, the same thing would happen that we see with other commodities. We would see the best quality at the lowest prices.

I am a Veteran. I am entitled to free health care from the government.

A few years ago I had cancer. I could have got it treated for free from the government.

Instead I chose to take care of it myself and pay the thousands of dollars in insurance co payments and deductibles.

I inquired as to the treatment facilities nearby. There were three of them and they all were excellent and they all wanted my business. I chose what I thought was the best one. I got high quality treatment in an expeditious time frame. The cancer was cured pretty damn quick. If I had waited for the government treatment I am sure the cancer would have advanced before getting the treatment.

Other veterans I know that used the government service told me they took years to get done what I got in a few months.

I trust market competition to produce a quality product as the lowest possible price a lot more than I trust some stupid government bureaucrat, whose boss is a politician elected by special interest groups, looking after my "best" interest.

You can't trust the government to provide quality health care and you can't trust them to regulate the health care business. They screw everything up and we all suffer.

Lucky you, you had thousands of dollars to pay for it.
Look pal, we're talking about a system in which the majority of people can't pay unless they have high priced insurance. And millons can't even afford that!

Your anectodal story is a happy one, no doubt.

And so some HC can be provided by big tech companies for 1/10 of the price Americans pay.

You seem to just want to LOL about that!

 

[Flash]

Lucky you, you had thousands of dollars to pay for it.
Look pal, we're talking about a system in which the majority of people can't pay unless they have high priced insurance. And millons can't even afford that!

Your anectodal story is a happy one, no doubt.

And so some HC can be provided by big tech companies for 1/10 of the price Americans pay.

You seem to just want to LOL about that!

It wasn't luck. It was working hard.