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I don't think the Palestinians are all that radical nor have they been much involved in extremist religious activity. In fact, in polls - they strongly oppose such groups as ISIS. Their violence has been mainly directed towards Israel for the purpose of getting a state.

I entirely disagree. If their purpose was "getting a State" they would have had one a dozen times over by now. They could have had it for the asking yesterday. They can still have it for the asking tomorrow. And I'm sorry, but in my world preventing a religious group from visiting and praying on their own holy site so that you can have exclusive use of it IS radical extremist activity. The more so when it is backed up by stabbing hundreds of innocent Israeli citizens.

This isn't about peace and getting a State. If it was, they would be acting like good neighbors.
 
I don't think the Palestinians are all that radical nor have they been much involved in extremist religious activity. In fact, in polls - they strongly oppose such groups as ISIS. Their violence has been mainly directed towards Israel for the purpose of getting a state.

I entirely disagree. If their purpose was "getting a State" they would have had one a dozen times over by now. They could have had it for the asking yesterday. They can still have it for the asking tomorrow. And I'm sorry, but in my world preventing a religious group from visiting and praying on their own holy site so that you can have exclusive use of it IS radical extremist activity. The more so when it is backed up by stabbing hundreds of innocent Israeli citizens.

This isn't about peace and getting a State. If it was, they would be acting like good neighbors.

I think it IS about getting a state - it's the terms of it that are at issue. Religion plays a part, primarily because religion is not logical or rational and those religious sites are highly emotional. I don't happen to agree with the intolerance, but I don't see the Palestinian violence as a part of Islamic extremism. It's directed at Israel. I do think that there is a movement that is attempting to make it seem as if it is and I think the purpose is to further demonize and descredit the Palestinian cause.
 
I don't think the Palestinians are all that radical nor have they been much involved in extremist religious activity. In fact, in polls - they strongly oppose such groups as ISIS. Their violence has been mainly directed towards Israel for the purpose of getting a state.

I entirely disagree. If their purpose was "getting a State" they would have had one a dozen times over by now. They could have had it for the asking yesterday. They can still have it for the asking tomorrow. And I'm sorry, but in my world preventing a religious group from visiting and praying on their own holy site so that you can have exclusive use of it IS radical extremist activity. The more so when it is backed up by stabbing hundreds of innocent Israeli citizens.

This isn't about peace and getting a State. If it was, they would be acting like good neighbors.

In all seriousness - how many states have been won without violence, often extreme violence?
 
The Palestinians did not all flee voluntarily: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of those truths. Do you deny it? I notice you ignore it while focusing on the Jewish expulsion (also a truth).


Not all Arabs did flee voluntarily, true. I did not ignore it at all, and I acknowledged it. Just because you ignore the greater number of Jews who were forced from Arab lands and play this nonsensical game of assigning an identity to them retroactively, that does not mean I ignore the smaller number of Arabs who were, indeed, forced out after they initiated hostilities. Many Arabs did leave voluntarily, but the ones more closely aligned with the Nazi Al Husseini were too belligerent and had to be forced due to such. .

No "Palestinians" left for any reason, however, since their identity at the time was simply as Arabs.
The right of return for the Jews and the Palestinians are two separate and unrelated issues. One is a claim by the Jews against Arab states. The other is a claim by the Palestinians against Israel.

They have nothing in common.
 
The right of return for the Jews and the Palestinians are two separate and unrelated issues. One is a claim by the Jews against Arab states. The other is a claim by the Palestinians against Israel.

They have nothing in common.

Which right of return for the Jews are you speaking of? The right of return of the Jewish people to their homeland and place of origin from which they were forcibly removed? Or the right of return of the Jewish people to Arab nations from which they were forcibly removed?
 
I think it IS about getting a state - it's the terms of it that are at issue.

Sure. So its not actually about getting a State, its about getting a State with terms they like. So already the goalposts have shifted. So what is it that they want, that they haven't been offered? And is what they are demanding reasonable under the circumstances? You and I have discussed the practical issues on my Palestine Solution thread. The practical issues are relatively easy to solve, imo. You and I could draw up a plan in an afternoon.


Religion plays a part, primarily because religion is not logical or rational and those religious sites are highly emotional. I don't happen to agree with the intolerance, but I don't see the Palestinian violence as a part of Islamic extremism. It's directed at Israel. I do think that there is a movement that is attempting to make it seem as if it is and I think the purpose is to further demonize and descredit the Palestinian cause.

I disagree with you entirely, again. A shared holy site -- with both people having equal and fair access to the site -- is a reasonable and moral goal. The fact that Muslims refuse to entertain this idea is at the very heart of Muslim extremism. It is the foundation of it.

Its not directed at Israel -- its directed at the Jewish people. (And frankly, though I argue vehemently for fair and equal shared access to the Jewish Temple for ALL -- I am painfully aware of the essential unfairness, disrespect and deep, essential loss of one group usurping the holy site, stories and history of another people).

The stabbings (one of a long line of essentially pointless random attacks against innocents) serves no purpose in furthering conflict resolution or gaining a State. Peacefully living with your neighbor would. But so would praying on the Temple Mount next to a Jew. Its two sides of the same coin. They don't seem to have it in them. One continues to hope.
 
The Palestinians did not all flee voluntarily: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of those truths. Do you deny it? I notice you ignore it while focusing on the Jewish expulsion (also a truth).


Not all Arabs did flee voluntarily, true. I did not ignore it at all, and I acknowledged it. Just because you ignore the greater number of Jews who were forced from Arab lands and play this nonsensical game of assigning an identity to them retroactively, that does not mean I ignore the smaller number of Arabs who were, indeed, forced out after they initiated hostilities. Many Arabs did leave voluntarily, but the ones more closely aligned with the Nazi Al Husseini were too belligerent and had to be forced due to such. .

No "Palestinians" left for any reason, however, since their identity at the time was simply as Arabs.
Israel makes up its own "facts" as it goes along.
-------------------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel
 
The Palestinians did not all flee voluntarily: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of those truths. Do you deny it? I notice you ignore it while focusing on the Jewish expulsion (also a truth).


Not all Arabs did flee voluntarily, true. I did not ignore it at all, and I acknowledged it. Just because you ignore the greater number of Jews who were forced from Arab lands and play this nonsensical game of assigning an identity to them retroactively, that does not mean I ignore the smaller number of Arabs who were, indeed, forced out after they initiated hostilities. Many Arabs did leave voluntarily, but the ones more closely aligned with the Nazi Al Husseini were too belligerent and had to be forced due to such. .

No "Palestinians" left for any reason, however, since their identity at the time was simply as Arabs.
Israel makes up its own "facts" as it goes along.
-------------------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel
You can tell us right now what document has superseded this.
 
I think it IS about getting a state - it's the terms of it that are at issue.

Sure. So its not actually about getting a State, its about getting a State with terms they like. So already the goalposts have shifted. So what is it that they want, that they haven't been offered? And is what they are demanding reasonable under the circumstances? You and I have discussed the practical issues on my Palestine Solution thread. The practical issues are relatively easy to solve, imo. You and I could draw up a plan in an afternoon.

Terms are always an issue - both with the Palestinians and the Israeli's. But the that doesn't change the fact it IS about getting a state, not spreading Islamic extremism.

Religion plays a part, primarily because religion is not logical or rational and those religious sites are highly emotional. I don't happen to agree with the intolerance, but I don't see the Palestinian violence as a part of Islamic extremism. It's directed at Israel. I do think that there is a movement that is attempting to make it seem as if it is and I think the purpose is to further demonize and descredit the Palestinian cause.

I disagree with you entirely, again. A shared holy site -- with both people having equal and fair access to the site -- is a reasonable and moral goal. The fact that Muslims refuse to entertain this idea is at the very heart of Muslim extremism. It is the foundation of it.

I agree, it is. Not sure I agree that that is the heart of Muslim extremism nor do I think that is at the heart of the Palestinian movement.

Its not directed at Israel -- its directed at the Jewish people. (And frankly, though I argue vehemently for fair and equal shared access to the Jewish Temple for ALL -- I am painfully aware of the essential unfairness, disrespect and deep, essential loss of one group usurping the holy site, stories and history of another people).

The stabbings (one of a long line of essentially pointless random attacks against innocents serves no purpose in furthering conflict resolution or gaining a State. Peacefully living with your neighbor would. But so would praying on the Temple Mount next to a Jew. Its two sides of the same coin. They don't seem to have it in them. One continues to hope.

I agree. The first step towards peace is greater tolerance and mutual acceptance, and that is lacking though Israel has it's factions too.

Sites that are holy to multiple groups should be shared, and I will agree Israel has done a good and fair job at protecting holy sites and allowing access while keeping violence down as much as possible. Muslims need to learn to be more tolerant.
 
The Palestinians did not all flee voluntarily: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of those truths. Do you deny it? I notice you ignore it while focusing on the Jewish expulsion (also a truth).


Not all Arabs did flee voluntarily, true. I did not ignore it at all, and I acknowledged it. Just because you ignore the greater number of Jews who were forced from Arab lands and play this nonsensical game of assigning an identity to them retroactively, that does not mean I ignore the smaller number of Arabs who were, indeed, forced out after they initiated hostilities. Many Arabs did leave voluntarily, but the ones more closely aligned with the Nazi Al Husseini were too belligerent and had to be forced due to such. .

No "Palestinians" left for any reason, however, since their identity at the time was simply as Arabs.
Israel makes up its own "facts" as it goes along.
-------------------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel
You can tell us right now what document has superseded this.
None.
 
The Palestinians did not all flee voluntarily: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of those truths. Do you deny it? I notice you ignore it while focusing on the Jewish expulsion (also a truth).


Not all Arabs did flee voluntarily, true. I did not ignore it at all, and I acknowledged it. Just because you ignore the greater number of Jews who were forced from Arab lands and play this nonsensical game of assigning an identity to them retroactively, that does not mean I ignore the smaller number of Arabs who were, indeed, forced out after they initiated hostilities. Many Arabs did leave voluntarily, but the ones more closely aligned with the Nazi Al Husseini were too belligerent and had to be forced due to such. .

No "Palestinians" left for any reason, however, since their identity at the time was simply as Arabs.
Israel makes up its own "facts" as it goes along.
-------------------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel
You can tell us right now what document has superseded this.
None.
So you're going to leave it to RoccoR or Boston to show us where you're wrong as usual.
 
The Palestinians did not all flee voluntarily: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of those truths. Do you deny it? I notice you ignore it while focusing on the Jewish expulsion (also a truth).


Not all Arabs did flee voluntarily, true. I did not ignore it at all, and I acknowledged it. Just because you ignore the greater number of Jews who were forced from Arab lands and play this nonsensical game of assigning an identity to them retroactively, that does not mean I ignore the smaller number of Arabs who were, indeed, forced out after they initiated hostilities. Many Arabs did leave voluntarily, but the ones more closely aligned with the Nazi Al Husseini were too belligerent and had to be forced due to such. .

No "Palestinians" left for any reason, however, since their identity at the time was simply as Arabs.
Israel makes up its own "facts" as it goes along.
-------------------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel
You can tell us right now what document has superseded this.
None.
So you're going to leave it to RoccoR or Boston to show us where you're wrong as usual.
I await their response.
 
All Media
Unlike mathamatics "historical truth" is often controlled by the side that controls the narrative.

One example. The accepted "truth" according to official Israeli history is that the Arabs told the pal's to flee during the war. Yet documents that were finally released relatively recently indicated that some fled at the urging of the arabs, others fled out of fear of war, and many were expelled by Israeli military. So which is truth?


Arabs did not tell Palestinians to flee, they told fellow Arabs to flee. The "Palestinian" identity had not yet been invented. Similarly, Arabs fled voluntarily because of the war started by Arabs and other Arabs who were actively engaged in hostile actions they initiated were expelled. All these things are true.

What is not true is your attempt to create some sort of separate identity retroactively.

Arabs initiated a war and Arabs left for a variety of reasons. Soon thereafter, Arabs expelled a greater Jewish population from Arab lands despite the fact these populations predated the Arabs and despite the fact they were not engaged in hostilities.

Truth is not subject to your particular agenda despite the many times you claim it is malleable. Truth is what actually happened, and since this thread was initiated in order to get to the truth, your notion that the truth is as slippery as you want it to be is antithetical to its stated purpose.


The Palestinians did not all flee voluntarily: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of those truths. Do you deny it? I notice you ignore it while focusing on the Jewish expulsion (also a truth).

Articles: The Expulsion Libel: 1948 Arab
All Media
Arab sources on the 1948 exodus - Israel & Judaism Studies
 
Yep. And its ironic in the extreme that the exchange of populations which happened during or after many many conflicts prior to 1948 but which, uniquely, did not happen in Israel is the source of the current accusations of ethnic cleansing and genocide against Israel.
 
Yep. And its ironic in the extreme that the exchange of populations which happened during or after many many conflicts prior to 1948 but which, uniquely, did not happen in Israel is the source of the current accusations of ethnic cleansing and genocide against Israel.

Ironic, indeed. There was once a million Jews living in Arab lands, descendants of those who lived there before Islam . Today there are just a few thousand.

Despite this, these antisemites such as those in this thread try to claim it was actually Jews who engaged in some sort of ethnic clensing.

unreal!
 
Yep. And its ironic in the extreme that the exchange of populations which happened during or after many many conflicts prior to 1948 but which, uniquely, did not happen in Israel is the source of the current accusations of ethnic cleansing and genocide against Israel.

Ironic, indeed. There was once a million Jews living in Arab lands, descendants of those who lived there before Islam . Today there are just a few thousand.

Despite this, these antisemites such as those in this thread try to claim it was actually Jews who engaged in some sort of ethnic clensing.

unreal!
The Jews should push for their right to return like the Palestinians are.

Why don't I heart of that happening?
 
15th post
As usual we've been over this before. But just for fun lets look at the link Tinmore provided.

Reminds me of Monty in that obviously someone didn't read this before presenting it. Its really not evidence of anything resembling citizenship, at this time there was no such place or people called palestine regardless of the ipso facto use of the term.

From
Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

Quote

During this period Palestine was first placed under military rule and then under civil administration. From 9 December 1917 (when the province of Jerusalem was occupied by the British army as part of World War I in which Britain and Turkey were enemies) until the adoption of the Palestine Mandate on 24 July 1922 by the Council of the League of Nations, the international legal status of the country remained undetermined. As a result, the nationality of Palestine inhabitants, like that of the inhabitants of other ex-Ottoman territories at the time, remained similarly undetermined.

End Quote

Its a no brainer, no decisions were made regardless of the ipso facto use of the terms palestinian or citizenship concerning the legal status of this area or its inhabitants, Jewish or Muslim.

We then find that after 1922 the Mandate is adopted in which there is a citizenship order. An order that while forgoing the creation of any state within the mandated area did seek to define people living in the area as citizens of the mandate. This order was bitterly rejected by the Arab League as they felt it discriminated against the national status of Arabs living in the mandate but not wishing to abandon their existing national affiliations.

Any questions concerning citizenship and to what one might be a citizen were dispelled in 1954 with the addendum to Jordan's citizenship laws.

Quote

In 1949, the Jordanian Council of Ministers added an article to their Citizenship Law of 1928 that read

All those who at the time when this Law goes into effect habitually reside in Transjordan or in the Western part [of the Jordan] which is being administered by [the Kingdom], and who were holders of Palestinian citizenship, shall be deemed as Jordanians enjoying all rights of Jordanians and bearing all the attendant obligations.

End Quote

So really the only time frame that matters is in the 1922 to 28 area or a mere 6 years.

And to further complicate matters the British din't even remotely address the citizenship issue within the mandate requirements until 1925

In those few years of the mandate period Britain was constrained by the mandate to offer citizenship to people residing in the mandate area while at the same time not constrained to designate what these people were citizens of.

So again we have legal limbo. OK so now you are a citizen, but a citizen of what ? The British never formed a nation called palestine and so there can be no palestinian nationals. Its pretty basic. You were a citizen of the mandate, until the mandate expired

Also if you look at immigration within this time frame we can see that most Arabs were recently came to the mandate area.

Screen+Shot+2013-07-14+at+1.10.20+PM.png


With the Arab complaint about the citizenship law being that it didn't include these recent immigrants.

See
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwie06qQ0_vKAhWGtIMKHZvrB4MQFgg1MAQ&url=http://www.opendemocracy.net/lauren-banko/creation-of-palestinian-citizenship-under-international-mandate-1918-1925&usg=AFQjCNH3gM7_5ZFcFyrab8mSbBM3T5xafw&sig2=tlrHeVCzXFcUPefHVFNgEQ

Quote

The extent of protection offered for native Ottomans before a peace treaty was signed remained questionable. The draft laid out very few points that could be used to construct a proper nationality law and indeed did not differentiate between nationality and citizenship or the status of Palestinian nationals vis-à-vis Britain. Colonial officials discussed the issue of citizenship at length in the years before the mandate was officially given to the British in 1923, but a complete order on the topic did not appear in the 1922 Order-in-Council or elsewhere until HMG introduced the citizenship order-in-council in 1925.

End Quote

we've now reduced the time frame to a period of just 3 years, where a defacto citizen of an undefined nation would be eligible for such citizenship by several means.

From the previous link

Quote

Amid the confusion and the competing opinions over sovereignty, the discussions of Palestinian nationality centered on the status of the Palestinians. Were they meant to be treated as British-protected persons, Ottoman subjects, foreigners, or nationals of an 'A' mandate? Furthermore, what did these statuses mean outside of Palestine? What was to be the status of non-Ottoman Jewish immigrants to Palestine? Dependent on their country of origin, these immigrants were subjected to different consequences when they arrived in Palestine and applied for provisional certificates of nationality. British-protected persons, Jews or otherwise, were not considered colonial subjects or naturalized citizens of the power whose protection they were under.

End Quote

Note also

Quote

Despite the ratification of Lausanne in September 1924, internal differences of opinion within the British government continued to have an impact on the status of Palestinians. The Foreign Office wrote to the Home Office that Palestine did ‘not bear the slightest resemblances to an independent state’ and its citizens had no such status as belonging to one in international law.

( snip )

By July, the draft order had ‘nationality’ crossed out and replaced with ‘citizenship’. Only shortly before the order passed, the Colonial Office changed ‘subject’ to ‘citizen’ in all places and made a note that ‘national’ in the Treaty of Lausanne meant both subject and citizen in the Citizenship Order.

End Quote

which should pretty much put an end to any nonsense about citizenship to any non existent state called palestine.

The entire argument is simply a rehash of the legal limbo that existed during the mandated period.
 
They cant go back any further than 1400 years as that is when islam and modern arabs were invented. When well trusted politicians stand up and state officially that arab mohamedans have flooded into the mandate of Palestine illegally then it is time to take note of what really happened. Who is right on this the well trusted politician or the proven mohameden liars. The arab's were evicted in 1099 leaving just Christians and Jews in Palestine, Even the ottomans showed that the arab muslms were in the minority when the population was counted. They also showed that the arab muslims would not take up the offer of the land and farm it as the work was too hard for them to contemplate and so they left in 6 months of being handed the land. 3 times this happened and so the Ottomans invited the Jews to migrate and make the desert bloom

Yes, they can go back more than 1400 years - they can precede Islam because they weren't Muslim at the time but converted - Christianity, Islam - whatever.

Muslims were a majority from the Islamic conquest until Zionist immigration boosted the Jewish numbers.

Origins of Palestinians and Jews in Palestine/Israel
Origins of Palestinians and Jews in Palestine/Israel




Apart from when the Crusaders invaded and conquered the land, they then kicked out the arab muslims aqfter they had held sovereignty for just 22 years. They never had any control of Palestine ever again, in fact the Ottomans refused them any control at all because they were so inept and incapable being nomadic farm workers

What are you going on about? The OTTOMAN's WERE Muslim.






But not arab muslims, the same as Presbyterians are not Catholics.

That makes no sense. Presbyterians and Catholics are two different denominations of Christianity. "Arab muslim" is not a denomination of Islam.

Why do you think it is that Iranian muslims are fighting against Saudi muslims. You do realise that the Ottomans are looked down on by the rest of the M.E muslims because they are Persians and seen as second class citizens. It is all down to the age old Sunni/Shi'ite battles and differences that have been waging since the death of mo'mad.

You're mixing up ethnic divisions with religious divisions.

You really should look at the history of islam and see why the Ottomans did not give the arab muslims sovereignty over any of their lands, and they had to wait until 1923 and the LoN before they could claim any of their lands.

What does this have to do with anything? Muslims were a majority for many years.





So you don't know that islam is built on tiers and at the top is the arab or true muslim. Then you have the Persian muslim who follows another branch of islam. Or if you prefer sunni and Shi'ite muslims, that even they will tell you are not the same religion. Then you have the Kurds who are third class muslims, and killed by both Sunni and Shi'ite sects. It is the same with Catholics and Protestants, both Christian sects that are far from being compatible. Which is why they are still at war with each other. The most obvious difference is birth control that is illegal in Catholic nations, but legal in protestant ones.


Are you 100% sure of this as the many links from the pro Jew side show that the arab muslims were in the minority for all but 22 years since the Roman conquest. They never held any sovereignty or any legal title to the land from 1099 till the present day. Even the Ottomans refused to allow them to be the owners and kept them under a feudal system until the surrender of the land in 1919. Your whole argument was based around the Jews being recent arrivals from Europe until the evidence showed the majority came from the surrounding lands, now you are using residency of muslims that is unproven as your reason to stop the Jews from having a NATIONal home.
 
The Jews should push for their right to return like the Palestinians are.

Why don't I heart of that happening?

We don't think we would survive the trying.





Or because they don't need to as no concept exists in law. But reclaiming stolen property is a concept covered by law and this is what the Jews are doing.
 
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