Consider The Facts

[ForeverYoung436]

The extreme Islamic initiative is to destroy Western culture and infra-structure, bottom line. At some point we'll have to unleash the full might of our military in conjunction with Israel and a coalition super-army to combat and exterminate Islamic oppressors in the entire mid-east region. One million man standing army and complete annihilation of this Islamic extremist perspective... Anyone have a problem with that point of view?

Sounds like World War 3!!

 

[wrathbone]

The extreme Islamic initiative is to destroy Western culture and infra-structure, bottom line. At some point we'll have to unleash the full might of our military in conjunction with Israel and a coalition super-army to combat and exterminate Islamic oppressors in the entire mid-east region. One million man standing army and complete annihilation of this Islamic extremist perspective... Anyone have a problem with that point of view?

Sounds like World War 3!!

Actually if skillfully executed, it has become the necessary evil and will in fact prevent WW3, as strange as that may sound. How many more country's will be destabilized by the cancer defined as Islamic extremism? Right now, muslims are killing other muslims in the most brutal fashion. Let it grow or kibosh? Why are Westerners to blame for their horrible religious beliefs?

 

[MJB12741]

The extreme Islamic initiative is to destroy Western culture and infra-structure, bottom line. At some point we'll have to unleash the full might of our military in conjunction with Israel and a coalition super-army to combat and exterminate Islamic oppressors in the entire mid-east region. One million man standing army and complete annihilation of this Islamic extremist perspective... Anyone have a problem with that point of view?

Sounds like World War 3!!

Actually if skillfully executed, it has become the necessary evil and will in fact prevent WW3, as strange as that may sound. How many more country's will be destabilized by the cancer defined as Islamic extremism? Right now, muslims are killing other muslims in the most brutal fashion. Let it grow or kibosh? Why are Westerners to blame for their horrible religious beliefs?

In many documented cases they have even killed their own offspring to honor God. And these are the people the Pali's & their suporters want the USA & Israel to make peace with.

 

[wrathbone]

The extreme Islamic initiative is to destroy Western culture and infra-structure, bottom line. At some point we'll have to unleash the full might of our military in conjunction with Israel and a coalition super-army to combat and exterminate Islamic oppressors in the entire mid-east region. One million man standing army and complete annihilation of this Islamic extremist perspective... Anyone have a problem with that point of view?

Sounds like World War 3!!

Actually if skillfully executed, it has become the necessary evil and will in fact prevent WW3, as strange as that may sound. How many more country's will be destabilized by the cancer defined as Islamic extremism? Right now, muslims are killing other muslims in the most brutal fashion. Let it grow or kibosh? Why are Westerners to blame for their horrible religious beliefs?

In many documented cases they have even killed their own offspring to honor God. And these are the people the Pali's & their suporters want the USA & Israel to make peace with.

Those groups of people who share this ideology are the exact threat to all civilization..... they're fanatics, so to annihilate this threat is pure Nationalism and self-preservation. Don't worry, Dogma-Mann....we'll do all the heavy lifting so you can play arm-chair judge, jury, and procrastinator.....Ha!.

 

[MJB12741]

The extreme Islamic initiative is to destroy Western culture and infra-structure, bottom line. At some point we'll have to unleash the full might of our military in conjunction with Israel and a coalition super-army to combat and exterminate Islamic oppressors in the entire mid-east region. One million man standing army and complete annihilation of this Islamic extremist perspective... Anyone have a problem with that point of view?

Sounds like World War 3!!

Actually if skillfully executed, it has become the necessary evil and will in fact prevent WW3, as strange as that may sound. How many more country's will be destabilized by the cancer defined as Islamic extremism? Right now, muslims are killing other muslims in the most brutal fashion. Let it grow or kibosh? Why are Westerners to blame for their horrible religious beliefs?

In many documented cases they have even killed their own offspring to honor God. And these are the people the Pali's & their suporters want the USA & Israel to make peace with.

Those groups of people who share this ideology are the exact threat to all civilization..... they're fanatics, so to annihilate this threat is pure Nationalism and self-preservation. Don't worry, Dogma-Mann....we'll do all the heavy lifting so you can play arm-chair judge, jury, and procrastinator.....Ha!.

The extreme Islamic initiative is to destroy Western culture and infra-structure, bottom line. At some point we'll have to unleash the full might of our military in conjunction with Israel and a coalition super-army to combat and exterminate Islamic oppressors in the entire mid-east region. One million man standing army and complete annihilation of this Islamic extremist perspective... Anyone have a problem with that point of view?

Jordan sure didn't have a problem with that. So sad that it took Black September to communicate a lasting peace from Palestinians. And who knows Palestinians better than Jordan? Want peace from Palestinians? When will Israel learn from Jordan how to achieve it? LET THERE BE PEACE ALREADY!

 

[MJB12741]

The extreme Islamic initiative is to destroy Western culture and infra-structure, bottom line. At some point we'll have to unleash the full might of our military in conjunction with Israel and a coalition super-army to combat and exterminate Islamic oppressors in the entire mid-east region. One million man standing army and complete annihilation of this Islamic extremist perspective... Anyone have a problem with that point of view?

Sounds like World War 3!!

Actually if skillfully executed, it has become the necessary evil and will in fact prevent WW3, as strange as that may sound. How many more country's will be destabilized by the cancer defined as Islamic extremism? Right now, muslims are killing other muslims in the most brutal fashion. Let it grow or kibosh? Why are Westerners to blame for their horrible religious beliefs?

In many documented cases they have even killed their own offspring to honor God. And these are the people the Pali's & their suporters want the USA & Israel to make peace with.

Those groups of people who share this ideology are the exact threat to all civilization..... they're fanatics, so to annihilate this threat is pure Nationalism and self-preservation. Don't worry, Dogma-Mann....we'll do all the heavy lifting so you can play arm-chair judge, jury, and procrastinator.....Ha!.

The extreme Islamic initiative is to destroy Western culture and infra-structure, bottom line. At some point we'll have to unleash the full might of our military in conjunction with Israel and a coalition super-army to combat and exterminate Islamic oppressors in the entire mid-east region. One million man standing army and complete annihilation of this Islamic extremist perspective... Anyone have a problem with that point of view?

Jordan sure didn't have a problem with that. So sad that it took Black September to communicate a lasting peace from Palestinians. And who knows Palestinians better than Jordan? Want peace from Palestinians? When will Israel learn from Jordan how to achieve it? LET THERE BE PEACE ALREADY!

Seriously, how does ANYONE or ANY NATION negotiate peace with people who prefer death over life?

 

[Boston1]

PA: No more negotiations with Israel, ever

There is no negotiations, its one of the three no's

Oft repeated by the Arab Muslims amidst all the other complaints about how Israel isn't playing fair at the negotiating table.

Another inconvenient fact that tends to trip up the entire pali diatribe

 

[Coyote]

The extreme Islamic initiative is to destroy Western culture and infra-structure, bottom line. At some point we'll have to unleash the full might of our military in conjunction with Israel and a coalition super-army to combat and exterminate Islamic oppressors in the entire mid-east region. One million man standing army and complete annihilation of this Islamic extremist perspective... Anyone have a problem with that point of view?

Not very realistic.

 

[Coyote]

Unlike mathamatics "historical truth" is often controlled by the side that controls the narrative.

One example. The accepted "truth" according to official Israeli history is that the Arabs told the pal's to flee during the war. Yet documents that were finally released relatively recently indicated that some fled at the urging of the arabs, others fled out of fear of war, and many were expelled by Israeli military. So which is truth?

Arabs did not tell Palestinians to flee, they told fellow Arabs to flee. The "Palestinian" identity had not yet been invented. Similarly, Arabs fled voluntarily because of the war started by Arabs and other Arabs who were actively engaged in hostile actions they initiated were expelled. All these things are true.

What is not true is your attempt to create some sort of separate identity retroactively.

Arabs initiated a war and Arabs left for a variety of reasons. Soon thereafter, Arabs expelled a greater Jewish population from Arab lands despite the fact these populations predated the Arabs and despite the fact they were not engaged in hostilities.

Truth is not subject to your particular agenda despite the many times you claim it is malleable. Truth is what actually happened, and since this thread was initiated in order to get to the truth, your notion that the truth is as slippery as you want it to be is antithetical to its stated purpose.

The Palestinians did not all flee voluntarily: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of those truths. Do you deny it? I notice you ignore it while focusing on the Jewish expulsion (also a truth).

 

[wrathbone]

When Israel became Israel 20th century, many thought all Palestinians would eventually migrate to Saudi Arabia and other dominate Muslim culture country's. But many did not, so they've become orphans of the middle east spawning the growth of radical Islam via Arafat and various terror organizations. This thousand year war between shiites and sunnis has almost become a moot point in all the chatter...

 

[Coyote]

When Israel became Israel 20th century, many thought all Palestinians would eventually migrate to Saudi Arabia and other dominate Muslim culture country's. But many did not, so they've become orphans of the middle east spawning the growth of radical Islam via Arafat and various terror organizations. This thousand year war between shiites and sunnis has almost become a moot point in all the chatter...

I don't think the Palestinians are all that radical nor have they been much involved in extremist religious activity. In fact, in polls - they strongly oppose such groups as ISIS. Their violence has been mainly directed towards Israel for the purpose of getting a state.

 

[Coyote]

Sort of...but not when truth is subjective, such as who is occupying what or who has a right to where.

Truth is truth. You only want it to be subjective when acknowledging it undermines your agenda.

What is the truth when you have two people's claiming rights to the same territory? Who has a greater right - the one inhabiting it or the one who owns it?

And thats the funny part, thats not even remotely a truth or a fact.

You ask "who has the greater right - the one who ( is ) inhabiting it or the one who owns it".

We've seen a thousand times how Israel is well within its rights to everything west of the Jordan and we've seen how the Arab League declared war and attacked. We also know that the Zionists were peacefully buying land when they were attacked. So the elements of armed conflict come into play. In which case ownership is decided by force of arms. By 1967 that principal is still in effect. It wasn't until AFTER the war of 67 that the Arab dominated UN RETROACTIVELY made land acquisition in warfare illegal. Odd coincidence ?

Your assumption that the person inhabiting the land doesn't also own it is highly subjective as was the implication that there are rights involved.

When the Arabs declared war, all rights went out the window and ownership fell to the victor. Now while the international community didn't recognize Jordans claim the resident Arabs didn't complain. Yet when Jordan lost the area in 67 now all of a sudden the Arabs there are freaking out.

Rights, ownership or habitation really don't have anything to do with it. Clearly its racism and bigotry. The Arabs just can't handle Jewish neighbors.

I think rights clearly have something to do with it. The excuse often given for expelling people from a place (for example the Beduoin) is that they don't "own" the property. Another example - and this was what I was thinking when I stated what I did - is we have laws that allow a person who has been "squatting" on abandoned property the right to that property after a certain number of years - even though there is an "owner".

 

[Dogmaphobe]

The Palestinians did not all flee voluntarily: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of those truths. Do you deny it? I notice you ignore it while focusing on the Jewish expulsion (also a truth).

Not all Arabs did flee voluntarily, true. I did not ignore it at all, and I acknowledged it. Just because you ignore the greater number of Jews who were forced from Arab lands and play this nonsensical game of assigning an identity to them retroactively, that does not mean I ignore the smaller number of Arabs who were, indeed, forced out after they initiated hostilities. Many Arabs did leave voluntarily, but the ones more closely aligned with the Nazi Al Husseini were too belligerent and had to be forced due to such. .

No "Palestinians" left for any reason, however, since their identity at the time was simply as Arabs.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

The Palestinians did not all flee voluntarily: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of those truths. Do you deny it? I notice you ignore it while focusing on the Jewish expulsion (also a truth).

Not all Arabs did flee voluntarily, true. I did not ignore it at all, and I acknowledged it. Just because you ignore the greater number of Jews who were forced from Arab lands and play this nonsensical game of assigning an identity to them retroactively, that does not mean I ignore the smaller number of Arabs who were, indeed, forced out after they initiated hostilities. Many Arabs did leave voluntarily, but the ones more closely aligned with the Nazi Al Husseini were too belligerent and had to be forced due to such. .

No "Palestinians" left for any reason, however, since their identity at the time was simply as Arabs.

We don't have to go back far to see refugees as the consequence of war. There are thousands of Syrian and Iraqi refugees flooding Europe right now. I'm sure most of the refugees at that time also wanted to escape a war zone in order to keep safe, and out of harm's way.

 

[MJB12741]

When Israel became Israel 20th century, many thought all Palestinians would eventually migrate to Saudi Arabia and other dominate Muslim culture country's. But many did not, so they've become orphans of the middle east spawning the growth of radical Islam via Arafat and various terror organizations. This thousand year war between shiites and sunnis has almost become a moot point in all the chatter...

I don't think the Palestinians are all that radical nor have they been much involved in extremist religious activity. In fact, in polls - they strongly oppose such groups as ISIS. Their violence has been mainly directed towards Israel for the purpose of getting a state.

Thanks for bringing that up. Yes indeed, Isis is bad news for Palestinians. Doesn't it seem a bit odd how we hear no Palestinian or Palestinian supporter complaints about that & yet they ***** about Israel??? It's called Palestinian mentality.

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians did not all flee voluntarily: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of those truths. Do you deny it? I notice you ignore it while focusing on the Jewish expulsion (also a truth).

Not all Arabs did flee voluntarily, true. I did not ignore it at all, and I acknowledged it. Just because you ignore the greater number of Jews who were forced from Arab lands and play this nonsensical game of assigning an identity to them retroactively, that does not mean I ignore the smaller number of Arabs who were, indeed, forced out after they initiated hostilities. Many Arabs did leave voluntarily, but the ones more closely aligned with the Nazi Al Husseini were too belligerent and had to be forced due to such. .

No "Palestinians" left for any reason, however, since their identity at the time was simply as Arabs.

I've never ignored expulsions - the Jews who were expelled have every right to compensation. That, I've said before.

Many villages were forceably emptied by Israeli forces.

850,000 Jews were expelled or fled from Arab states between 1948 and 1970's. 726,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled during the 1948 conflict. 800,000 – 900,000 registered as refugees by 1961.

I'm not seeing much of a "greater number" or "smaller number" here.

So...where is the truth in these numbers?

How many really left voluntarily? Many Jews and many Palestinians fled out of fear of conflict or retribution. Many were expelled. The numbers look to be about the same. So...what "truth" are you talking about here?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

850,000 Jews were expelled or fled from Arab states between 1948 and 1970's. 726,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled during the 1948 conflict. 800,000 – 900,000 registered as refugees by 1961.

I'm not seeing much of a "greater number" or "smaller number" here.

So...where is the truth in these numbers?

How many really left voluntarily? Many Jews and many Palestinians fled out of fear of conflict or retribution. Many were expelled. The numbers look to be about the same. So...what "truth" are you talking about here?

I don't know about you, but I realized that 850 is greater than 726 by the time I was 4 years old.

The truth here is that you have two populations -- Jewish and Arabs, and these populations have been winnowed. Creating this magical new people called "palestinian" does not change that truth one iota.

The Arabs need to give it a rest, because they have already given a tat greater than the much-imagined tit.

 

[Coyote]

..

850,000 Jews were expelled or fled from Arab states between 1948 and 1970's. 726,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled during the 1948 conflict. 800,000 – 900,000 registered as refugees by 1961.

I'm not seeing much of a "greater number" or "smaller number" here.

So...where is the truth in these numbers?

How many really left voluntarily? Many Jews and many Palestinians fled out of fear of conflict or retribution. Many were expelled. The numbers look to be about the same. So...what "truth" are you talking about here?

I don't know about you, but I realized that 850 is greater than 726 by the time I was 4 years old.

The truth here is that you have two populations -- Jewish and Arabs, and these populations have been winnowed. Creating this magical new people called "palestinian" does not change that truth one iota.

The Arabs need to give it a rest, because they have already given a tat greater than the much-imagined tit.

850 between 1948 - 1970's....30 years
726 in just 1948 alone
800-900 registered refugees by 1961 (13 years)

Hard to get truly accurate numbers on either side - but 800-900 and 850 has no appreciable difference.

They aren't a "magical new people" - every "people" starts somewhere somewhen.

 

[Boston1]

Sort of...but not when truth is subjective, such as who is occupying what or who has a right to where.

Truth is truth. You only want it to be subjective when acknowledging it undermines your agenda.

What is the truth when you have two people's claiming rights to the same territory? Who has a greater right - the one inhabiting it or the one who owns it?

And thats the funny part, thats not even remotely a truth or a fact.

You ask "who has the greater right - the one who ( is ) inhabiting it or the one who owns it".

We've seen a thousand times how Israel is well within its rights to everything west of the Jordan and we've seen how the Arab League declared war and attacked. We also know that the Zionists were peacefully buying land when they were attacked. So the elements of armed conflict come into play. In which case ownership is decided by force of arms. By 1967 that principal is still in effect. It wasn't until AFTER the war of 67 that the Arab dominated UN RETROACTIVELY made land acquisition in warfare illegal. Odd coincidence ?

Your assumption that the person inhabiting the land doesn't also own it is highly subjective as was the implication that there are rights involved.

When the Arabs declared war, all rights went out the window and ownership fell to the victor. Now while the international community didn't recognize Jordans claim the resident Arabs didn't complain. Yet when Jordan lost the area in 67 now all of a sudden the Arabs there are freaking out.

Rights, ownership or habitation really don't have anything to do with it. Clearly its racism and bigotry. The Arabs just can't handle Jewish neighbors.

I think rights clearly have something to do with it. The excuse often given for expelling people from a place (for example the Beduoin) is that they don't "own" the property. Another example - and this was what I was thinking when I stated what I did - is we have laws that allow a person who has been "squatting" on abandoned property the right to that property after a certain number of years - even though there is an "owner".

You might have a point if we were talking about peacetime, but Israel is still at war which the Arab League declared all the way back in 1948.

In wartime its not as much about ownership as civilian vs combatant treatment by the controlling power.

Geneva Conventions.

Whats interesting about the application of the Geneva Conventions is that Israel doesn't recognize the jurisdiction of the conventions within its borders.

But for as confusing as the issue of what laws apply is, there is no real question that the area designated for the creation of a national Jewish homeland was everything west of the Jordan. In which case there can be no belligerent occupation on the Israeli part.

I think what you are trying to interject is individual rights, in which case customary law requires land owners to possess a tittle or deed to the land they claim they own.

From there several issues come into play. The Zionists have been more than willing to purchase land. This is not theft. just because someone else might be using a car, loaned to it by the owner, doesn't mean I can't purchase that car from the actual owner and drive off with it.

The next issue is one of security. The Arab Muslims continue their violent acts of war against Israel at which point Israel is well within its rights to take countermeasures. In this case security barriers. The rout of the barriers has been decided by the Israeli courts so not much arguing that one.

No matter how you slice it no land was stolen, it was lost by the Arab League who refused to accept its own refugees and defeated armies back into their prospective countries.

How those Arabs remaining in Israel and insisting on continuing the war are deserving of rights is the real question. I'd say before we can unilaterally assign rights we'd have to first designate who among them are combatants and who might be civilians.

 

[MJB12741]

No, ISIS' Attack on Palestinians Doesn't Expose a Double Standard on Israel