CDZ Conservatism and why it's not dead

Boss

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Apr 21, 2012
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For a brief moment last week I was saddened by the latest news. Once a stalwart Conservative icon, Newt Gingrich had announced the apparent demise of Conservatism. As the trendy new Nationalist-Populist movement takes hold and former voices of Conservatism such as Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham fawn over their Chosen One, Donald Trump, it was certainly sad news to hear.

Then I realized, this is simply politics and political rhetoric. Conservatism is not dead, it can't die because Conservatism is truth. It may be on the back burner for the time being. It may have suffered a great setback in the elections of 2016. It may be sorely lacking a strong articulate voice that can carry the message to the people in a way that appeals to them personally.... but it's not dead.

The task that lies ahead for Conservatism is to first, educate people, then appeal. There is a strong and contemptuous misunderstanding that has been promoted by the left as well as elites on the right over what exactly Conservatism is. This has to be addressed and corrected before Conservatism can again step forward in the political realm.

Foremost among the many misconceptions is the understanding of Conservatism as an ideology and not an overarching philosophy. Liberalism, Socialism, Nationalism and Populism are ideologies. They are ideologically-driven sets of ideas. Fundamentally, Conservatism is not an ideologically-driven set of ideas, it is a philosophical adherence to certain general principles and wisdom acquired through experience and history. It includes many ideas and has many various ideological leanings. Social Conservatism, for example, is a sub-group of Conservatives who have a specific ideological social agenda. Libertarians are another sub-group of Conservatives with a totally different ideological social agenda. They both reside under the general philosophy of Conservatism but they have very different ideological social agendas.

Conservatism is the philosophical counter of Radicalism. So it shouldn't be viewed as "Conservative vs. Liberal" but rather, "Conservative vs. Radical". Liberalism is an ideology which falls under the philosophy of Radicalism. This is why you can sometimes find people who are Conservative yet they have socially liberal views but you seldom find socially liberal ideologues who are Conservatives.

True Conservative philosophy takes a slow measured approach to solving our problems and addressing our issues. It carefully weighs all aspects of both "sides" of an argument and reasons a "moderate" resolution. In essence, it is the "moderate" view as opposed to the extremist view. The advantage to this is self-evident, it tends to keep us from really screwing things up. Radical extremism often results in knee-jerk emotive responses that cause more problems than they fix because the ramifications and consequences are often not considered until after the fact.

So how do we define Conservatism? Many of us Conservatives will point to Ronald Reagan as the "prototype" but when you actually evaluate Reagan's record, he was a big spender and ran up the national debt. Granted, he had to work with a Democrat congress but his adherence to true conservative principles were sometimes compromised for the sake of progress. I think the last truly conservative president we had was Calvin Coolidge. I doubt any of us remember him.

Progressives have been so successful because "the people" tend to want an expansive government that "does things for them" instead of being more pragmatic and measured with regard to solutions. But the problem we're now facing as a result of 70-80 years of progressive politics, is a nation in massive debt with no real way out. This is where Conservative philosophy runs into it's biggest obstacle. We know, inherently, this cannot continue but how do you reduce the size and scope of government while the masses scream for more expansive government?

Those of us who've studied history realize what happens when nations overload themselves with massive debt. The Weimar Republic is a classic example. A nation has to be able to handle it's debt obligations for the foreseeable future or we reach a point of no return. This seems to be where we are coming to with our nation. There are people on both left and right who sincerely believe we'll never pay off our national debt, so why worry about it? That's really a dangerous collective mindset to have because we know from history what the results will ultimately be and they're not pretty.
 
While I agree that it is not dead, I will contend that it is living on borrowed time.
 
As long as there are coins there will be two sides. That being said, for each coin flip, one side is down for awhile. Don't worry, conservatism is not gone forever.
 
While I agree that it is not dead, I will contend that it is living on borrowed time.

I don't believe it is "living on borrowed time" at all. I believe it's time will come again soon and it will be stronger than ever when it does. Everything happens in cycles with politics and we're currently in a progressive cycle. The "nationalist-populists" are progressives by another color. Once these trends run their course, responsible people will again turn to conservative principles because Conservatism is truth.
 
While I agree that it is not dead, I will contend that it is living on borrowed time.

I don't believe it is "living on borrowed time" at all. I believe it's time will come again soon and it will be stronger than ever when it does. Everything happens in cycles with politics and we're currently in a progressive cycle. The "nationalist-populists" are progressives by another color. Once these trends run their course, responsible people will again turn to conservative principles because Conservatism is truth.
No, Conservatism is the right side of the left-right political spectrum, not inherently truthful nor inherently dishonest. Much like monarchy, it's seen its day. The fact is that the conservatism in the United States has been marred by dismal leadership and gross administrative incompetence. This, in combination with its inability or unwillingness to defend itself against what is becoming an increasingly zealous left wing have left it with nowhere to go.
 
While I agree that it is not dead, I will contend that it is living on borrowed time.

I don't believe it is "living on borrowed time" at all. I believe it's time will come again soon and it will be stronger than ever when it does. Everything happens in cycles with politics and we're currently in a progressive cycle. The "nationalist-populists" are progressives by another color. Once these trends run their course, responsible people will again turn to conservative principles because Conservatism is truth.
No, Conservatism is the right side of the left-right political spectrum, not inherently truthful nor inherently dishonest. Much like monarchy, it's seen its day. The fact is that the conservatism in the United States has been marred by dismal leadership and gross administrative incompetence. This, in combination with its inability or unwillingness to defend itself against what is becoming an increasingly zealous left wing have left it with nowhere to go.

I fundamentally disagree. Conservatism is not an ideology. This is explained in the OP. Being pragmatic and holding to time-tested values you know and can depend on is not "left" or "right". You can certainly morph Conservatism into an ideology and apply a bunch of stereotypes but that doesn't mean a thing other than you don't understand what Conservatism is.

I will agree that what has been missing on the national political stage is a voice to articulate Conservatism and defend it from left wing zealots who seek to destroy it. That will change in time, someone will come along again and when they do, people will come back to common sense solutions and pragmatic values because that is inescapable truth.
 
While I agree that it is not dead, I will contend that it is living on borrowed time.

I don't believe it is "living on borrowed time" at all. I believe it's time will come again soon and it will be stronger than ever when it does. Everything happens in cycles with politics and we're currently in a progressive cycle. The "nationalist-populists" are progressives by another color. Once these trends run their course, responsible people will again turn to conservative principles because Conservatism is truth.
No, Conservatism is the right side of the left-right political spectrum, not inherently truthful nor inherently dishonest. Much like monarchy, it's seen its day. The fact is that the conservatism in the United States has been marred by dismal leadership and gross administrative incompetence. This, in combination with its inability or unwillingness to defend itself against what is becoming an increasingly zealous left wing have left it with nowhere to go.

I fundamentally disagree. Conservatism is not an ideology. This is explained in the OP. Being pragmatic and holding to time-tested values you know and can depend on is not "left" or "right". You can certainly morph Conservatism into an ideology and apply a bunch of stereotypes but that doesn't mean a thing other than you don't understand what Conservatism is.

I will agree that what has been missing on the national political stage is a voice to articulate Conservatism and defend it from left wing zealots who seek to destroy it. That will change in time, someone will come along again and when they do, people will come back to common sense solutions and pragmatic values because that is inescapable truth.
At no point did I call conservatism an ideology. Additionally, where are you getting the definition from?
 
"Conservatives" have been responsible for the massive debt we now carry. And "conservatives" are the ones stopping the pay down of this massive debt.

If "conservatives" only had some point of economic success, as opposed to economic disasters, more people might look favorably on "conservatives".
 
For a brief moment last week I was saddened by the latest news. Once a stalwart Conservative icon, Newt Gingrich had announced the apparent demise of Conservatism. As the trendy new Nationalist-Populist movement takes hold and former voices of Conservatism such as Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham fawn over their Chosen One, Donald Trump, it was certainly sad news to hear.

Then I realized, this is simply politics and political rhetoric. Conservatism is not dead, it can't die because Conservatism is truth. It may be on the back burner for the time being. It may have suffered a great setback in the elections of 2016. It may be sorely lacking a strong articulate voice that can carry the message to the people in a way that appeals to them personally.... but it's not dead.

The task that lies ahead for Conservatism is to first, educate people, then appeal. There is a strong and contemptuous misunderstanding that has been promoted by the left as well as elites on the right over what exactly Conservatism is. This has to be addressed and corrected before Conservatism can again step forward in the political realm.

Foremost among the many misconceptions is the understanding of Conservatism as an ideology and not an overarching philosophy. Liberalism, Socialism, Nationalism and Populism are ideologies. They are ideologically-driven sets of ideas. Fundamentally, Conservatism is not an ideologically-driven set of ideas, it is a philosophical adherence to certain general principles and wisdom acquired through experience and history. It includes many ideas and has many various ideological leanings. Social Conservatism, for example, is a sub-group of Conservatives who have a specific ideological social agenda. Libertarians are another sub-group of Conservatives with a totally different ideological social agenda. They both reside under the general philosophy of Conservatism but they have very different ideological social agendas.

Conservatism is the philosophical counter of Radicalism. So it shouldn't be viewed as "Conservative vs. Liberal" but rather, "Conservative vs. Radical". Liberalism is an ideology which falls under the philosophy of Radicalism. This is why you can sometimes find people who are Conservative yet they have socially liberal views but you seldom find socially liberal ideologues who are Conservatives.

True Conservative philosophy takes a slow measured approach to solving our problems and addressing our issues. It carefully weighs all aspects of both "sides" of an argument and reasons a "moderate" resolution. In essence, it is the "moderate" view as opposed to the extremist view. The advantage to this is self-evident, it tends to keep us from really screwing things up. Radical extremism often results in knee-jerk emotive responses that cause more problems than they fix because the ramifications and consequences are often not considered until after the fact.

So how do we define Conservatism? Many of us Conservatives will point to Ronald Reagan as the "prototype" but when you actually evaluate Reagan's record, he was a big spender and ran up the national debt. Granted, he had to work with a Democrat congress but his adherence to true conservative principles were sometimes compromised for the sake of progress. I think the last truly conservative president we had was Calvin Coolidge. I doubt any of us remember him.

Progressives have been so successful because "the people" tend to want an expansive government that "does things for them" instead of being more pragmatic and measured with regard to solutions. But the problem we're now facing as a result of 70-80 years of progressive politics, is a nation in massive debt with no real way out. This is where Conservative philosophy runs into it's biggest obstacle. We know, inherently, this cannot continue but how do you reduce the size and scope of government while the masses scream for more expansive government?

Those of us who've studied history realize what happens when nations overload themselves with massive debt. The Weimar Republic is a classic example. A nation has to be able to handle it's debt obligations for the foreseeable future or we reach a point of no return. This seems to be where we are coming to with our nation. There are people on both left and right who sincerely believe we'll never pay off our national debt, so why worry about it? That's really a dangerous collective mindset to have because we know from history what the results will ultimately be and they're not pretty.


As there is nothing radical about Trump's platform, it is wrong to claim that Conservatism is dead.


The Ideology of Free Market Conservatism, has taken a real beating because it has failed to deliver the promised results.


Debt seems to be a fundamental flaw of the Modern State in a Post Industrial Society. All FIrst World nations have similar problems with debt and/or unfunded liabilities.

That no one as of yet has an answer for.
 
"Conservatives" have been responsible for the massive debt we now carry. And "conservatives" are the ones stopping the pay down of this massive debt.

If "conservatives" only had some point of economic success, as opposed to economic disasters, more people might look favorably on "conservatives".
Citation needed.
 
At no point did I call conservatism an ideology. Additionally, where are you getting the definition from?

I didn't say you called it an ideology. I'm merely making the point that it's not an ideology. You can't say it's the diametric opposite of the left because it's neither left or right. Pragmatism doesn't know left from right, it just is. Conservatism is not extreme left or right.

And what do you mean, where do I get the definition from? I'm not someone who comes here regurgitating crap I've read online. The definition comes from ME. After reading the works of people like Edmund Burke and David Hume or even Thomas Sowell and Mark Levin, a clear definition emerges that can be boiled down to time-tested values and principles we've learned through history. It is a philosophy and not an ideology.
 
At no point did I call conservatism an ideology. Additionally, where are you getting the definition from?

I didn't say you called it an ideology. I'm merely making the point that it's not an ideology. You can't say it's the diametric opposite of the left because it's neither left or right. Pragmatism doesn't know left from right, it just is. Conservatism is not extreme left or right.

And what do you mean, where do I get the definition from? I'm not someone who comes here regurgitating crap I've read online. The definition comes from ME. After reading the works of people like Edmund Burke and David Hume or even Thomas Sowell and Mark Levin, a clear definition emerges that can be boiled down to time-tested values and principles we've learned through history. It is a philosophy and not an ideology.
The definition though is dependent upon context and upon who is defining it.
 
As there is nothing radical about Trump's platform, it is wrong to claim that Conservatism is dead.

I agree that Trump is not a radical but he is a progressive. Paid maternity leave, ethanol subsidies, raising the minimum wage and taxing the rich are progressive ideas. He's not a radical Marxist and I'll probably vote for him, but he's not a Conservative.
 
The definition though is dependent upon context and upon who is defining it.

Not really. I admit, I am simplifying it for the sake of brevity. Reason being, it is harder to take something out of context or misunderstand it if it's simplified. I could expound further but risk being taken out of context and misunderstood.
 
For a brief moment last week I was saddened by the latest news. Once a stalwart Conservative icon, Newt Gingrich had announced the apparent demise of Conservatism. As the trendy new Nationalist-Populist movement takes hold and former voices of Conservatism such as Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham fawn over their Chosen One, Donald Trump, it was certainly sad news to hear.

Then I realized, this is simply politics and political rhetoric. Conservatism is not dead, it can't die because Conservatism is truth. It may be on the back burner for the time being. It may have suffered a great setback in the elections of 2016. It may be sorely lacking a strong articulate voice that can carry the message to the people in a way that appeals to them personally.... but it's not dead.

The task that lies ahead for Conservatism is to first, educate people, then appeal. There is a strong and contemptuous misunderstanding that has been promoted by the left as well as elites on the right over what exactly Conservatism is. This has to be addressed and corrected before Conservatism can again step forward in the political realm.

Foremost among the many misconceptions is the understanding of Conservatism as an ideology and not an overarching philosophy. Liberalism, Socialism, Nationalism and Populism are ideologies. They are ideologically-driven sets of ideas. Fundamentally, Conservatism is not an ideologically-driven set of ideas, it is a philosophical adherence to certain general principles and wisdom acquired through experience and history. It includes many ideas and has many various ideological leanings. Social Conservatism, for example, is a sub-group of Conservatives who have a specific ideological social agenda. Libertarians are another sub-group of Conservatives with a totally different ideological social agenda. They both reside under the general philosophy of Conservatism but they have very different ideological social agendas.

Conservatism is the philosophical counter of Radicalism. So it shouldn't be viewed as "Conservative vs. Liberal" but rather, "Conservative vs. Radical". Liberalism is an ideology which falls under the philosophy of Radicalism. This is why you can sometimes find people who are Conservative yet they have socially liberal views but you seldom find socially liberal ideologues who are Conservatives.

True Conservative philosophy takes a slow measured approach to solving our problems and addressing our issues. It carefully weighs all aspects of both "sides" of an argument and reasons a "moderate" resolution. In essence, it is the "moderate" view as opposed to the extremist view. The advantage to this is self-evident, it tends to keep us from really screwing things up. Radical extremism often results in knee-jerk emotive responses that cause more problems than they fix because the ramifications and consequences are often not considered until after the fact.

So how do we define Conservatism? Many of us Conservatives will point to Ronald Reagan as the "prototype" but when you actually evaluate Reagan's record, he was a big spender and ran up the national debt. Granted, he had to work with a Democrat congress but his adherence to true conservative principles were sometimes compromised for the sake of progress. I think the last truly conservative president we had was Calvin Coolidge. I doubt any of us remember him.

Progressives have been so successful because "the people" tend to want an expansive government that "does things for them" instead of being more pragmatic and measured with regard to solutions. But the problem we're now facing as a result of 70-80 years of progressive politics, is a nation in massive debt with no real way out. This is where Conservative philosophy runs into it's biggest obstacle. We know, inherently, this cannot continue but how do you reduce the size and scope of government while the masses scream for more expansive government?

Those of us who've studied history realize what happens when nations overload themselves with massive debt. The Weimar Republic is a classic example. A nation has to be able to handle it's debt obligations for the foreseeable future or we reach a point of no return. This seems to be where we are coming to with our nation. There are people on both left and right who sincerely believe we'll never pay off our national debt, so why worry about it? That's really a dangerous collective mindset to have because we know from history what the results will ultimately be and they're not pretty.
Well said. There is NOTHING here that can, realistically, be questioned. The only question remaining is "When". When will the "pendulum" swing back from radicalism to conservatism? I, for one, see a bright shining light, albeit distant, in the "Millennial" generation. Young people are increasingly becoming aware that the current "way of things" politically, is not working, and many are seeking "new" or at least different ideas.
 
"Conservatives" have been responsible for the massive debt we now carry. And "conservatives" are the ones stopping the pay down of this massive debt.

If "conservatives" only had some point of economic success, as opposed to economic disasters, more people might look favorably on "conservatives".
Wrong, it is "radicals" who refuse to look at the "long game" and only seek re-election, that are to blame. They reside on BOTH sides of the ideological spectrum, seeking, essentially, to buy votes with debt spending. Whether the spending is on social programs (Medicare, SNAP, Welfare, etc.), Defense, Foreign aid, or elsewhere, is truly irrelevant. It is not well thought out in the long term, and will, ultimately, come home to roost, at which time "someone" will have to pay for it.
 
For a brief moment last week I was saddened by the latest news. Once a stalwart Conservative icon, Newt Gingrich had announced the apparent demise of Conservatism. As the trendy new Nationalist-Populist movement takes hold and former voices of Conservatism such as Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham fawn over their Chosen One, Donald Trump, it was certainly sad news to hear.

Then I realized, this is simply politics and political rhetoric. Conservatism is not dead, it can't die because Conservatism is truth. It may be on the back burner for the time being. It may have suffered a great setback in the elections of 2016. It may be sorely lacking a strong articulate voice that can carry the message to the people in a way that appeals to them personally.... but it's not dead.

The task that lies ahead for Conservatism is to first, educate people, then appeal. There is a strong and contemptuous misunderstanding that has been promoted by the left as well as elites on the right over what exactly Conservatism is. This has to be addressed and corrected before Conservatism can again step forward in the political realm.

Foremost among the many misconceptions is the understanding of Conservatism as an ideology and not an overarching philosophy. Liberalism, Socialism, Nationalism and Populism are ideologies. They are ideologically-driven sets of ideas. Fundamentally, Conservatism is not an ideologically-driven set of ideas, it is a philosophical adherence to certain general principles and wisdom acquired through experience and history. It includes many ideas and has many various ideological leanings. Social Conservatism, for example, is a sub-group of Conservatives who have a specific ideological social agenda. Libertarians are another sub-group of Conservatives with a totally different ideological social agenda. They both reside under the general philosophy of Conservatism but they have very different ideological social agendas.

Conservatism is the philosophical counter of Radicalism. So it shouldn't be viewed as "Conservative vs. Liberal" but rather, "Conservative vs. Radical". Liberalism is an ideology which falls under the philosophy of Radicalism. This is why you can sometimes find people who are Conservative yet they have socially liberal views but you seldom find socially liberal ideologues who are Conservatives.

True Conservative philosophy takes a slow measured approach to solving our problems and addressing our issues. It carefully weighs all aspects of both "sides" of an argument and reasons a "moderate" resolution. In essence, it is the "moderate" view as opposed to the extremist view. The advantage to this is self-evident, it tends to keep us from really screwing things up. Radical extremism often results in knee-jerk emotive responses that cause more problems than they fix because the ramifications and consequences are often not considered until after the fact.

So how do we define Conservatism? Many of us Conservatives will point to Ronald Reagan as the "prototype" but when you actually evaluate Reagan's record, he was a big spender and ran up the national debt. Granted, he had to work with a Democrat congress but his adherence to true conservative principles were sometimes compromised for the sake of progress. I think the last truly conservative president we had was Calvin Coolidge. I doubt any of us remember him.

Progressives have been so successful because "the people" tend to want an expansive government that "does things for them" instead of being more pragmatic and measured with regard to solutions. But the problem we're now facing as a result of 70-80 years of progressive politics, is a nation in massive debt with no real way out. This is where Conservative philosophy runs into it's biggest obstacle. We know, inherently, this cannot continue but how do you reduce the size and scope of government while the masses scream for more expansive government?

Those of us who've studied history realize what happens when nations overload themselves with massive debt. The Weimar Republic is a classic example. A nation has to be able to handle it's debt obligations for the foreseeable future or we reach a point of no return. This seems to be where we are coming to with our nation. There are people on both left and right who sincerely believe we'll never pay off our national debt, so why worry about it? That's really a dangerous collective mindset to have because we know from history what the results will ultimately be and they're not pretty.

There is an awful lot here in one post, but it's better than the usual fare here, even though I disagree with a quite a bit of it. I'll try and parse some of it, and hopefully this turns into a fairly long running thread for a change.
 
Granted, he had to work with a Democrat congress but his adherence to true conservative principles were sometimes compromised for the sake of progress.



Of course your implication is that IF Reagan had not followed along with the democrats in congress, there would have been no progress for the nation. I agree. Dems made Reagan look successful.

And "conservatives" are anti progress by their very nature. You say so yourself.
 
Granted, he had to work with a Democrat congress but his adherence to true conservative principles were sometimes compromised for the sake of progress.

Of course your implication is that IF Reagan had not followed along with the democrats in congress, there would have been no progress for the nation. I agree. Dems made Reagan look successful.

And "conservatives" are anti progress by their very nature. You say so yourself.

Reagan never followed anyone. In order to pass important legislation he wanted, he often had to compromise with a Democrat majority in congress. I did not say Democrats made him look successful. In fact, since his presidency, Democrats have often exploited this aspect to criticize Reagan as not being a "true conservative."

I also never said Conservatives were "anti progress." You are a dishonest player. You simply want to distort what people say and regurgitate what you want others to think they really said. I have no tolerance for this kind of dishonest debate tactic, especially in this forum. I understand you're a Democrat and perhaps that's just your nature. If you can't be intellectually honest here, you need to go post in the Flame Zone or Rubber Room.
 
........True Conservative philosophy takes a slow measured approach to solving our problems and addressing our issues. It carefully weighs all aspects of both "sides" of an argument and reasons a "moderate" resolution. Inessence, it is the "moderate" view as opposed to the extremist view. The advantage to this is self-evident, it tends to keep us from really screwing things up. Radical extremism often results in knee-jerk emotive responses that cause more problems than they fix because the ramifications and consequences are often not considered until after the fact. .........
The Founders were radicals by that definition and the Brit loyalists aka Tories were conservatives.
 

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