Consequences of isolationism.

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There’s a widespread assumption that the US can go out of its way to insult, threaten, and demean its allies without any real consequences, because the transatlantic alliance is supposedly unimportant, or not at risk. That assumption is naive.

My position has always been that while the ties between Europe and the US are historically strong, they are not unbreakable. The idea that they would simply hold up “by default, or are useless” regardless of policy or behavior, was always a comforting illusion rather than a serious analysis.

As Charles de Gaulle famously put it: “Nations have no friends, only interests.” For decades, US and European interests were largely aligned, security, trade, and the maintenance of a shared global order.

Trump is the first US president in generations to openly signal that this alignment no longer exists, not just rhetorically, but in concrete policy.

And we’re already seeing the consequences of that shift:

For those on the right who will inevitably dismiss this: understand what this actually means. A free trade agreement encompassing nearly 2 billion people between Europe and one of the fastest-growing major economies in the world is not symbolic. It’s a structural realignment.

This isn’t about hurt feelings or diplomatic tone. It’s about the emergence of a global trade architecture where the US is no longer the default hub, and once those networks solidify, they don’t snap back easily. The longer this continues, the more the US will find itself not leading global trade, but increasingly looking in from the outside.

To make this less theoretical: one likely consequence is a gradual reduction in the centrality of US financial instruments. As major trade blocs integrate more tightly with each other, they also have increasing incentives to settle trade, manage reserves, and stabilize currencies outside the dollar system. Over time, that reduces structural demand for US assets like Treasury bonds, not because they become unsafe overnight, but because they are no longer as uniquely indispensable as they once were.

I hope the MAGA right is ready for a world with the US on it's own, because the rest of that world is getting ready for it.
 
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There’s a widespread assumption that the US can go out of its way to insult, threaten, and demean its allies without any real consequences, because the transatlantic alliance is supposedly unimportant, or not at risk. That assumption is naive.

I hope the MAGA right is ready for a world with the US on it's own, because the rest of that world is getting ready for it.
His/their approach to this is "they need us more than we need them". Remember, at the core of his appeal is the fact that he makes them "feel" strong. They think we're just too "strong" for anyone to leave us.

That may have been true in years past, but it's quickly changing. Our former friends have had enough of being insulted and mocked, and it appears that they're willing to take some pain to get rid of us ASAP.

It's still stunning how quickly this has happened. The power and influence we built over 80 years was destroyed in less than one. And the flock is absolutely convinced that we are "winning" because he says so.
 
His/their approach to this is "they need us more than we need them". Remember, at the core of his appeal is the fact that he makes them "feel" strong. They think we're just too "strong" for anyone to leave us.

That may have been true in years past, but it's quickly changing. Our former friends have had enough of being insulted and mocked, and it appears that they're willing to take some pain to get rid of us ASAP.

It's still stunning how quickly this has happened. The power and influence we built over 80 years was destroyed in less than one. And the flock is absolutely convinced that we are "winning" because he says so.
I have to admit the speed, number and scope of these agreements is suprising.

I've been predicting this realigment basically from Trump's first term and reitirated it when he started his tariffs game this time around, but I figured it would be so gradual as to be almost inperceptable.

A free trade agreement between Europe and India isn't that. It's an economic atom bomb meant to be heard by everybody. Although I'm sure those on the right either don't understand or will attempt to downplay it.
 
A free trade agreement between Europe amd India isn't that. It's an economic atom bomb. Although I'm sure those on the right either don't understand or will attempt to downplay it.
The rank & file don't understand global macroeconomics nearly enough to know its significance. This was an opening salvo, and there's much more to come. Our former friends aren't waiting for us to get our shit together any longer. They no longer trust us, and they're right not to.
 
There’s a widespread assumption that the US can go out of its way to insult, threaten, and demean its allies without any real consequences, because the transatlantic alliance is supposedly unimportant, or not at risk. That assumption is naive.

My position has always been that while the ties between Europe and the US are historically strong, they are not unbreakable. The idea that they would simply hold up “by default, or are useless” regardless of policy or behavior, was always a comforting illusion rather than a serious analysis.

As Charles de Gaulle famously put it: “Nations have no friends, only interests.” For decades, US and European interests were largely aligned, security, trade, and the maintenance of a shared global order.

Trump is the first US president in generations to openly signal that this alignment no longer exists, not just rhetorically, but in concrete policy.

And we’re already seeing the consequences of that shift:

For those on the right who will inevitably dismiss this: understand what this actually means. A free trade agreement encompassing nearly 2 billion people between Europe and one of the fastest-growing major economies in the world is not symbolic. It’s a structural realignment.

This isn’t about hurt feelings or diplomatic tone. It’s about the emergence of a global trade architecture where the US is no longer the default hub, and once those networks solidify, they don’t snap back easily. The longer this continues, the more the US will find itself not leading global trade, but increasingly looking in from the outside.

To make this less theoretical: one likely consequence is a gradual reduction in the centrality of US financial instruments. As major trade blocs integrate more tightly with each other, they also have increasing incentives to settle trade, manage reserves, and stabilize currencies outside the dollar system. Over time, that reduces structural demand for US assets like Treasury bonds, not because they become unsafe overnight, but because they are no longer as uniquely indispensable as they once were.

I hope the MAGA right is ready for a world with the US on it's own, because the rest of that world is getting ready for it.
I’ll happily take isolation over the current long running policy by our criminal government of non-stop wars, foreign interventions, and coups to install right wing dictators all for the benefit of a tiny globalist elite and their big multinational corporations.
 
There’s a widespread assumption that the US can go out of its way to insult, threaten, and demean its allies without any real consequences
Our so called allies do this to the U.S. constantly. The Dem homo presidents just bend over and take it up the ass. It's overdue that the U.S. flex it's muscles and give them a dose of their own medicine.

Example: That shank Mexico president dares run her mouth about Mexico's sovereignty, while assisting MILLIONS of criminals and filthy illegals to shit on OUR sovereignty and march through Mexico unopposed and enter the U.S. illegally. Then KILL, RAPE, and MURDER Americans. Steal, traffic drugs, human trafficking and all manner of filthy illegal crime. F her!
 
Our so called allies do this to the U.S. constantly. The Dem homo presidents just bend over and take it up the ass. It's overdue that the U.S. flex it's muscles and give them a dose of their own medicine.

Example: That shank Mexico president dares run her mouth about Mexico's sovereignty, while assisting MILLIONS of criminals and filthy illegals to shit on OUR sovereignty and march through Mexico unopposed and enter the U.S. illegally. Then KILL, RAPE, and MURDER Americans. Steal, traffic drugs, human trafficking and all manner of filthy illegal crime. F her!
You need a bottle and a diaper to go with that tantrum?


I get it. You don't like "homo's, skanks, and Mexican's" and you believe inserting them in an OP about the consequences of American isolationism makes some kind of point.

Let me tell you it doesn't. It doesn't convince anybody, it doesn't upset me, and it sure as hell doesn't make sense. The only thing it does is confirm you have the intelligence of a fruit fly and are just as easily dismissed as one because you're post is irrelevant to the subject.
 
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I’ll happily take isolation over the current long running policy by our criminal government of non-stop wars, foreign interventions, and coups to install right wing dictators all for the benefit of a tiny globalist elite and their big multinational corporations.
You mean the long running policy that has served as the bases for American economical, cultural and military dominance?

Make no mistake. That's what you're losing here. It wasn't just multinational corporations that benefitted, it was YOU.
 
There’s a widespread assumption that the US can go out of its way to insult, threaten, and demean its allies without any real consequences, because the transatlantic alliance is supposedly unimportant, or not at risk. That assumption is naive.
You must not have heard Mark Rutte yesterday...

I hope the MAGA right is ready for a world with the US on it's own, because the rest of that world is getting ready for it.
You apparently don't appreciate the importance of GDP. The US economy is central to global prosperity. If you get sanctioned your fragile economy suffers. BRICs is an interesting case study, how are those countries doing lately?

1769512766215.webp


........2024_____________ -1,200
........2025_____________ -780 thru October, but the deficit is trending much smaller due to tariffs
 
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You might not realize it but you are making my points for me.
You must not have heard Mark Rutte yesterday...
I'm aware of what he said. The difference is that I think of the implications of what it means. While you think Rutte is cheerleading the US. This because you can't conceive of a reality that has anything but your American perspective.

You read, "America has NATO by it's shorthairs, hurray."

I, (and I assure you all those in power NOT American) read, "America has NATO by it's shorthairs. That's not a situation you want to be in when America is not a reliable partner. So we need to take steps to reverse that."

It's supreme arrogance to believe that the power you posses is impossible to remedy given sufficient time amd incentive.

You apparently don't appreciate the importance of GDP. The US economy is central to global prosperity. If you get sanctioned your fragile economy suffers.
If you sanction us your economy suffers.

The same arrogance different context. Your GDP is just as dependant on non-Americans paying for American goods as the other way around. The difference is that the US is already dominant, meaning that a change in the status quo is a net-loss.

I do consider GDP, but unlike you, I don't think having a high GDP is something that you can maintain when you have a consumer market consisting of the citizens of a single nation. Or that you can bully the citizens of other nations while maintaining them as consumers indefinetly.
 
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You mean the long running policy that has served as the bases for American economical, cultural and military dominance?

Make no mistake. That's what you're losing here. It wasn't just multinational corporations that benefitted, it was YOU.
No. 99% of Americans lose due to non-stop wars. War and foreign intervention never works for long. Read the history of warring empires. It won’t end well.

You might look at the national debt. It should tell you something.

A nation $40 trillion in debt should have streets paved in gold. Yet all we see around us is nothing but failure. Education, healthcare, infrastructure, etc…..but the .01% are doing great.

Corruption everywhere. Huge wasteful ineffective government pushing a police state.
 
No. 99% of Americans lose due to non-stop wars. War and foreign intervention never works for long. Read the history of warring empires. It won’t end well.

You might look at the national debt. It should tell you something.

A nation $40 trillion in debt should have streets paved in gold. Yet all we see around us is nothing but failure. Education, healthcare, infrastructure, etc…..but the .01% are doing great.

Corruption everywhere. Huge wasteful ineffective government pushing a police state.
I understand the frustration. I just disagree with the cause.

What we're having are 2 different discussions. Born from 2 different perspectives. Your argument is about income inequality. Mine is about the global Macro-economical effects of Trump's policies.

I can, and am willing to engage in both. The problem is that doing so would derail the OP.

So here's my suggestion. Start an OP about it, tag me and I'll be there. Just put some thought behind it and we probably would agree more than you'd expect. Just don't do it in this OP.

It's hard enough to have a actual conversation on here. I rather have the OP's I start on topic.
 
I understand the frustration. I just disagree with the cause.

What we're having are 2 different discussions. Born from 2 different perspectives. Your argument is about income inequality. Mine is about the global Macro-economical effects of Trump's policies.

I can, and am willing to engage in both. The problem is that doing so would derail the OP.

So here's my suggestion. Start an OP about it, tag me and I'll be there. Just put some thought behind it and we probably would agree more than you'd expect. Just don't do it in this OP.

It's hard enough to have an actual conversation on here. I rather have the OP's I start on topic.
No. You support non-stop intervention, which you think benefits all Americans. There is no logic or truth to what you’re saying.

War is ALWAYS the health of the state. Never ever support war and foreign intervention.

You might read the words of the founders on this subject. It’s hardly a difficult concept to comprehend or a subject not fully proven by history.
 
No. You support non-stop intervention, which you think benefits all Americans. There is no logic or truth to what you’re saying.

War is ALWAYS the health of the state. Never ever support war and foreign intervention.

You might read the words of the founders on this subject. It’s hardly a difficult concept to comprehend or a subject not fully proven by history.
You have no clue about what I support or don't. In fact, I'm not even American.

But go ahead. Tell me more about myself.

If you want to simply rant and rave I would suggest a phsychologist. They get paid for it.
 
15th post
There’s a widespread assumption that the US can go out of its way to insult, threaten, and demean its allies without any real consequences, because the transatlantic alliance is supposedly unimportant, or not at risk. That assumption is naive.

My position has always been that while the ties between Europe and the US are historically strong, they are not unbreakable. The idea that they would simply hold up “by default, or are useless” regardless of policy or behavior, was always a comforting illusion rather than a serious analysis.

As Charles de Gaulle famously put it: “Nations have no friends, only interests.” For decades, US and European interests were largely aligned, security, trade, and the maintenance of a shared global order.

Trump is the first US president in generations to openly signal that this alignment no longer exists, not just rhetorically, but in concrete policy.

And we’re already seeing the consequences of that shift:

For those on the right who will inevitably dismiss this: understand what this actually means. A free trade agreement encompassing nearly 2 billion people between Europe and one of the fastest-growing major economies in the world is not symbolic. It’s a structural realignment.

This isn’t about hurt feelings or diplomatic tone. It’s about the emergence of a global trade architecture where the US is no longer the default hub, and once those networks solidify, they don’t snap back easily. The longer this continues, the more the US will find itself not leading global trade, but increasingly looking in from the outside.

To make this less theoretical: one likely consequence is a gradual reduction in the centrality of US financial instruments. As major trade blocs integrate more tightly with each other, they also have increasing incentives to settle trade, manage reserves, and stabilize currencies outside the dollar system. Over time, that reduces structural demand for US assets like Treasury bonds, not because they become unsafe overnight, but because they are no longer as uniquely indispensable as they once were.

I hope the MAGA right is ready for a world with the US on it's own, because the rest of that world is getting ready for it.


If the alliance is so important and good and maitaining good relations is so important,

then why have these supposed "adults" talked so much shit on Trump and maga?

Cause everytime I hear them talkign shit on Trump or maga, I feel less and less like they are my allies and more and more like they can go **** themselves.
 
If the alliance is so important and good and maitaining good relations is so important,

then why have these supposed "adults" talked so much shit on Trump and maga?

Cause everytime I hear them talkign shit on Trump or maga, I feel less and less like they are my allies and more and more like they can go **** themselves.
Ok before you continue I said I would do this.
So I'll look for something interesting to discuss when you're involved and remind you of this exchange.
So my first remark is this.

What you just did is a non-sequitor. Instead of trying to argue about the consequences of isolationism you try to bring the argument to a perceived slight of Trump and MAGA.

It's also a false dichotomy. One can "talk shit" and at the same time find alliences important.

So right off the bat your argument contains 2 fallacies.
 
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