Confidence in Elections Waning

[colfax_m]

You still don't get it. I'm not taking issue with the specifics of either denial - I'm just observing the irrational beliefs that both parties promote, that the other side is evil incarnate and cannot be tolerated.

I get it. You’re making a false equivalency.

You say that these beliefs are irrational and when I try to point out that it’s not irrational, you say that’s not important.

 

[dblack]

Most people who are attempting to have a serious discussion can refrain from calling someone "evil".

Wow.... you're a fucking idiot. Not evil, just an idiot.

 

[dblack]

I get it. You’re making a false equivalency.

You say that these beliefs are irrational and when I try to point out that it’s not irrational, you say that’s not important.

Yes. I'm saying that the belief that the other side is evil and cannot be tolerated is irrational. If you wanna claim the opposite go for it. You'll make my point better than I am.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

No. no my explanation is spot on. Have a good day colfax. I can't fix what is wrong with you.

That’s impossible

 

[colfax_m]

Yes. I'm saying that the belief that the other side is evil and cannot be tolerated is irrational. If you wanna claim the opposite go for it. You'll make my point better than I am.

This is a motte and bailey fallacy.

Saying that Russia interfered in the election in 2016 and that’s a problem isn’t the same as saying the other side is evil and cannot be tolerated.

 

[dblack]

This is a motte and bailey fallacy.

Saying that Russia interfered in the election in 2016 and that’s a problem isn’t the same as saying the other side is evil and cannot be tolerated.

Wow. I'm telling exactly what my point is, but you can't seem to absorb it. I give up. Sorry to have bothered you.

 

[colfax_m]

Wow. I'm telling exactly what my point is, but you can't seem to absorb it. I give up. Sorry to have bothered you.

I hear that, but your point has nothing to do with Democrats complaining about Russian interference in the 2016 election.

Which, you know, was the topic.

You try to make it sound like people can’t complain about legitimate problems because of a false equivalency.

 

[candycorn]

Be happy to.

First of all, let's dispense with your strawman - I never said it would "get rid" of partisanship. But it will mitigate it, and stop rewarding candidates for being so partisan. The most obvious change with RCV is that it allows to people vote third party without "throwing away" their vote. So, if you think the Green party candidate is actually best, but you still prefer Biden over Trump, you rank Green #1, Biden #2, and Trump last - or not ranked at all (same effect). Ranked that way, in the likely event that the Green party candidate doesn't get enough first place votes to win, your vote would go to Biden instead. Under RCV, you can vote Green - and have your vote on the record supporting Greens as your first choice, yet still vote "against" Trump by ranking him last.

As far as historical examples, you cited the 2016 republican primaries: Especially early on in the process, most Republican primary voters opposed Trump, many of them bitterly. But the field was so crowded that their votes were dispersed among the other candidates and Trump was able to do well regardless. Under RCV he'd not have fared so well. If most of the voters in and RCV election rank you last, you won't win. Period. Trump would almost certainly not have been the nominee.

So you'd end up with who? Cruz? Yeah. No partisanship there. Bachman? Wow... Yeah...I'm a pass on the RCV. The person who gets the most first choice votes is the person who should win....not some formula of bering everyone's second choice. What I think you'll end up with is what we have for Supreme Court nominees now...people who are afraid to state what they will do.

Another example would be Bush/Gore debacle. Many experts claimed, then and now, that GW won because Nader split Democrat votes. As close as it was, RCV would likely have given the victory to Gore.

On the flip side, Bill Clinton probably won in '92 because Perot did something similar to the Republicans. RCV would have most likely given that one to Bush senior.

Maybe.

How long do you think it would be before we started nationalizing the SC senatorial campaign from a few years ago between Graham and the guy he ran against. So much money was pouring in that he actually funded a 3rd candidate to peel votes from Graham.

Harrison elevates third-party candidate in bid to pull GOP SC Senate votes from Graham

The ads from Democratic challenger Jaime Harrison alert South Carolina voters to the fact that Constitutional Party candidate Bill Bledsoe is still on the ballot and warns them that he

www.postandcourier.com

You can use the 3rd party candidate to your advantage or as a foil for the other guy....

Finally, under RCV third party candidates will actually get a real idea of what kind of public support they have, and more of them are likely to run. More ideas and perspectives, in my view anyway, is better than less.

Not sure how you arrive at this conclusion. It seems to me that RCV would work in the opposite way essentially ending people's campaigns before they begin in a primary season. I'd rather have a more drastic change of essentially four or five "Super Tuesdays" to where entire regions vote on the first Tuesday of every month. Lets say, FL, GA, TN, AL, MS, LA, SC, NC, VA, and KY vote on January 2. You have 10 candidates and whomever is able to withstand this great mix of demographics, moves on to the next Super Tuesday in the West. CA, WA, OR, HI, AK, NV, AZ, MT, ID, UT all vote on February 2. Again, you have a mix of demographics and it helps determine who is going to be able to compete.

At the very least, the first contest of the year in 10 states has every candidate who is running instead of this admittedly crappy system we have now where IA, NH, and NV essentially winnow the field down before 47 other states have even woken up that there is an election.

The more subtle change is how it would impact campaigning. It gives candidates more of an incentive to address the concerns of all voters, not just their base. A candidate can win by scoring more second place votes. They have a built in incentive to avoid alienating voters who might rank them second place.

Now this is something that you can hang your hat on. Although I think you'll get a lot more obfuscation than we have now...you can get some real statesmanship. And in a primary you would likely get some more congenial stump speeches.

One of two things I worry about is how much something like this will insulate the front runner. If there are 10 voters in the room and you see that the front runner is polling at 40% you need to get some of his voters to make you the second choice....so you can't really attack too much. Thus making her or his life more enjoyable. The other thing is that guarding against the "a-hole candidate" seems to be something we're doing now in the rapidly diminishing shadow of Trump (hence this thread about election security so recently after one of the most secure elections ever). He's an outlier that won't soon be replicated.

There are some structural holes in our government we need to codify. For example... We have 538 electoral votes. Such a number is begging for a 269 split. Just make it an odd number....one way or the other to prevent that at least and ensure someone gets 268 (if we got rid of DC's 3 electoral votes) in a two way race.

 

[toobfreak]

The lack of confidence in the election process should concern us all as it seems our confidence in a 245 year old process is now not trusted by most Americans. What can we do to stop this trend or is it too late?

Stop what? The truth? If the majority of Americans feel the elections are a fraud, it is because EVERYTHING THAT OCCURRED LAST YEAR, LAST ELECTION AND SINCE especially by the democrats has only served to PROVE IT.

The only great lie around is that the Great Lie is a lie at all.

And these 50 organizations, people and groups went on print in Time Magazine last winter proudly admitting they stole the election working as a SECRET SHADOW ORGANIZATION to make sure Trump lost:

Trump was a threat to the deep state because he was putting the interests of Americans ahead of the global oligarchy and they tried everything they could to remove him and couldn't after they underestimated his chance of winning in the first place. Failing that, they rigged the election to make sure he would lose reelection, cut off all his mics so he had no ways of reaching the masses to even give his side of the story, the courts all refused to look at the election, while his own treasonous Joint Chief was conspiring behind his back with foreign adversaries, then when they stole the election and tried to sweep it under the rug while likewise censuring anyone from even questioning it or getting answers, that forced millions to protest and many went to the capitol in protest, who are now being arrested without charges or bond, held in solitary confinement as political prisoners in a gulag, while an illegal incompetent in the WH being directed by hidden managers direct the now compromised POTUS to conduct the interests of China.

Next step will be for China to seize control of Taiwan illegally while Joe Biden does nothing and stands out of their way with Milley's assurances their actions will be protected.

Meantime, Biden has made Washington a fortress surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards with rifles.

The United States has been seized by an illegal coup under the control of foreign powers while Biden expresses great confidence in a treasonous general, and you think our problem is a GOP-created lack of confidence in our elections?

WAKE UP IDIOT. You are living in a banana republic now.

 

[SweetTea]

Pretty laughable given the stunts Trump and his cronies tried to pull.

Really? Do tell? You mean like Russian collusion and stuff like that? LOL

 

[Votto]

America can't fix big problems any more.

Sure they can

All they have to do is elect democrats to tax and spend, but always spend more than they tax

It's like magic.

 

[Cellblock2429]

I

As usual your post makes no sense.

Notwithstanding your hyperbole on Russian collusion, there is a big difference between defending the integrity of our election system from foreign interference, and Trumpers like yourself debasing out electoral system and lying about voter and election fraud in November 2020.

/——/ Of course you can’t prove those accusations are lies, otherwise you would have. RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA Bwhahahaha Bwhahahaha

 

[Mac1958]

Sure they can
All they have to do is elect democrats to tax and spend, but always spend more than they tax
It's like magic.

 

[colfax_m]

Really? Do tell? You mean like Russian collusion and stuff like that? LOL

Like asking the courts to throw out votes from a few democratic counties in Wisconsin.

Like telling the DoJ to lie about the election.

Like asking a Secretary of State to find some votes.

Like asking the VP to stop the certification without any authority to do so.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

EVERY SINGLE ELECTION we see "irregularities" AKA CHEATING but the left and the media downplay it.

Total fantasy. You really have been sucked in by the lies.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

All they have to do is elect democrats to tax and spend, but always spend more than they tax

And the Republicans are worse, in that respect. . Provably and objectively. Better find a better talking point.

 

[Votto]

And the Republicans are worse, in that respect. . Provably and objectively. Better find a better talking point.

The GOP still has a party?

Why was I not informed of this?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The GOP still has a party?

Why was I not informed of this?

Because it's in a book.

 

[candycorn]

Stop what? The truth? If the majority of Americans feel the elections are a fraud, it is because EVERYTHING THAT OCCURRED LAST YEAR, LAST ELECTION AND SINCE especially by the democrats has only served to PROVE IT.

The only great lie around is that the Great Lie is a lie at all.

And these 50 organizations, people and groups went on print in Time Magazine last winter proudly admitting they stole the election working as a SECRET SHADOW ORGANIZATION to make sure Trump lost:

View attachment 540168

Trump was a threat to the deep state because he was putting the interests of Americans ahead of the global oligarchy and they tried everything they could to remove him and couldn't after they underestimated his chance of winning in the first place. Failing that, they rigged the election to make sure he would lose reelection, cut off all his mics so he had no ways of reaching the masses to even give his side of the story, the courts all refused to look at the election, while his own treasonous Joint Chief was conspiring behind his back with foreign adversaries, then when they stole the election and tried to sweep it under the rug while likewise censuring anyone from even questioning it or getting answers, that forced millions to protest and many went to the capitol in protest, who are now being arrested without charges or bond, held in solitary confinement as political prisoners in a gulag, while an illegal incompetent in the WH being directed by hidden managers direct the now compromised POTUS to conduct the interests of China.

Next step will be for China to seize control of Taiwan illegally while Joe Biden does nothing and stands out of their way with Milley's assurances their actions will be protected.

Meantime, Biden has made Washington a fortress surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards with rifles.

The United States has been seized by an illegal coup under the control of foreign powers while Biden expresses great confidence in a treasonous general, and you think our problem is a GOP-created lack of confidence in our elections?

WAKE UP IDIOT. You are living in a banana republic now.

Wow, could you imagine if what you are dreaming about really happened?

 

[XponentialChaos]

Did you read that Democrats confidence has dropped from 90% to 69%? If this is Trump driven, then why the 21% drop from january to September? Are Democrats really Trump followers?

I believe the poll answered that.

Democrats' biggest issue with elections is that "The rules around voting make it too difficult for eligible citizens who want to vote to cast a ballot."