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Confederate Memorials and Monuments - what history do they represent?

Coyote

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My initial thought was - they're a legacy of the civil war, put up by the losing side...and no "big deal" beyond that history. But I was wrong.

Removing historical monuments is always a "slippery slope", but so is erecting those monuments. For example, in Russia - the many monuments to Stalin (torn down when communism fell) or in Iraq, the many monuments to Sadaam (torn down too).

There IS something similar in the Confederate Monuments, compared to Stalin or Hussein or others. That is WHY they were erected.

Most were erected between the 1890's and 1920's - more then 30 years after the Civil War ended. They coincided with the rise in legislation essentially reinstalling slavery through a set of laws that segregated black people from white people, prevented them from exercising their right to vote, and saw a huge increase in lynchings and the reappearance of the Confederate Flag.

So what do these things REALLY represent? There has been a sustained movement to sanitize the Confederacy - to severe it from slavery and portray it as little more than a "state's rights" conflict. But you can't do that - it's inseperable from the slavery issue, as is evident by what occurred in the south AFTER the war's end.

So what are we seeking to "preserve" by keeping both that flag and those monuments on public spaces? These aren't battlefield monuments...they are monuments erected all over the country outside of historical sites. I used to be a huge Civil War buff as a kid...and I value and love history - but THIS part of the history, I was oblivious of. SHOULD we support it, in our public spaces, or retire it to Museums where it might be more fitting? This historian makes some good points.

Like The Flag, Confederate Monuments Have Been 'Severely Tainted'
JAMES COBB: Well, the great bulk of them were erected between roughly 1890 and 1920. But every time there was a sort of a racial flare up, later on, there would be a more modest surge in erecting monuments in the same way that Confederate flags started going on. State flags are being flown atop state capitals, but the 1890-1920 period is really, I think, critical because that period also saw the rise of legally mandated racial segregation and disfranchisement of black Southerners.

And in tune with that, the campaigns for passage of these segregation, disenfranchising laws involved a tremendous amount of horrific racial scapegoating. So that same period saw roughly 2,000 lynchings of black Americans. And so the thing I think people miss because it's so easy to jump on the clear connection between these monuments and slavery is that they also were sort of like construction materials in an effort to rebuild slavery.

and

COBB: Well, I think for generations, white Southerners had maintained, despite the presence of the flag at all of these racial atrocities, had maintained that it was possible to separate heritage and hate. And I think the slaying in Charleston pretty much shattered what was left of that mythology. And there were a number of cases, a number of states, where Confederate flags were furled almost, you know, within a matter of days of that event. The next target was going to be monuments. But compared to a flag, the monuments are a bit less emotive. And they were seen like as on the second line of defense as far as the whole cult of the lost cause and the refusal to accept the idea that both the flag and the monuments were tied to slavery.


Monuments were simply less closely associated in the minds of white Southerners, in particular, with anything related directly to racial oppression. It was the flag that had been waved at the Klan rallies. You know, it's easier to hoist a flag than a bust of Stonewall Jackson. It had the much stronger visual association with racial oppression or racist hate groups than monuments did.

and

COBB: Well, as a historian, I'll confess to a certain nervousness about sanitizing the historical landscape. But I think what we're looking at here is that these monuments, just like the flag, have been sort of seized on. And they've been so severely tainted. I think the best way to look at them upon removing them - and I think they do have to be removed from public spaces.


But I think the best way to look at them is that they're not being preserved in a museum, which is where I think they should go as a monument, but really, as an artifact because their connection with, you know, the effort to practically reinstitute slavery after the Civil War gives them an extra layer of complexity that I think most people have not been exposed to. Whereas they - in a public spot, I think they can only be divisive and a source of discord and conflict.
 

Vandalshandle

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I grew up in the deep South, and the Confederacy was a proud part of our legacy, UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation. For example, as soon as the Supreme Court ruled in Brown Vs. Board of Education, my home state of Georgia put the stars and bars on to the Georgia flag in 1956:
150px-Flag_of_the_State_of_Georgia_%281956-2001%29.svg.png


It didn't stop there, of course, it is no longer the symbol of the confederacy. It is the tool of redneck racists.
 

cnelsen

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So, once all the Confederate monuments come down, everyone will be satisfied? Once the lovely Harriet Tubman replaces Andrew Jackson on the $20, we'll have racial harmony?
 

Call Sign Chaos

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So, once all the Confederate monuments come down, everyone will be satisfied? Once the lovely Harriet Tubman replaces Andrew Jackson on the $20, we'll have racial harmony?

They're already calling for the Washington and Jefferson monuments to be taken down on CNN.
 

cnm

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So, once all the Confederate monuments come down, everyone will be satisfied? Once the lovely Harriet Tubman replaces Andrew Jackson on the $20, we'll have racial harmony?
Yup. And a gentle dew shall drop from heaven.
 
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I grew up in the deep South, and the Confederacy was a proud part of our legacy, UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation. For example, as soon as the Supreme Court ruled in Brown Vs. Board of Education, my home state of Georgia put the stars and bars on to the Georgia flag in 1956:
150px-Flag_of_the_State_of_Georgia_%281956-2001%29.svg.png


It didn't stop there, of course, it is no longer the symbol of the confederacy. It is the tool of redneck racists.

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.
 
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Coyote

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So, once all the Confederate monuments come down, everyone will be satisfied? Once the lovely Harriet Tubman replaces Andrew Jackson on the $20, we'll have racial harmony?

Is Harriet Tubman not worthy?
 

Vandalshandle

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They're already calling for the Washington and Jefferson monuments to be taken down on CNN.
'They'?

The feds are running out of space on the Mall, and Trump has plans for a new memorial with a statue of him holding Obama's birth certificate in one hand, and picking up a Mexican by the throat with the other.
 

cnelsen

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So, once all the Confederate monuments come down, everyone will be satisfied? Once the lovely Harriet Tubman replaces Andrew Jackson on the $20, we'll have racial harmony?

They're already calling for the Washington and Jefferson monuments to be taken down on CNN.
And VICE called for dynamiting Mt Rushmore. I've been saying for years that the (((end game))) here is total white genocide and the complete eradication of Christianity. People (Christians and Jews) are finally beginning to wake up to that fact.

(btw, I've known Gavin McInnes since his VICE days. He's nobody's dummy, and he loves the West).
 

tinydancer

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I grew up in the deep South, and the Confederacy was a proud part of our legacy, UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation. For example, as soon as the Supreme Court ruled in Brown Vs. Board of Education, my home state of Georgia put the stars and bars on to the Georgia flag in 1956:
150px-Flag_of_the_State_of_Georgia_%281956-2001%29.svg.png


It didn't stop there, of course, it is no longer the symbol of the confederacy. It is the tool of redneck racists.

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

In Georgia some wanted the Confederate flag removed from a Civil War Museum. Curator closed the museum.
 
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Coyote

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I grew up in the deep South, and the Confederacy was a proud part of our legacy, UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation. For example, as soon as the Supreme Court ruled in Brown Vs. Board of Education, my home state of Georgia put the stars and bars on to the Georgia flag in 1956:
150px-Flag_of_the_State_of_Georgia_%281956-2001%29.svg.png


It didn't stop there, of course, it is no longer the symbol of the confederacy. It is the tool of redneck racists.

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

In Georgia some wanted the Confederate flag removed from a Civil War Museum. Curator closed the museum.

I see no issue with it being in the museums - that is the appropriate place imo.
 

usmbguest5318

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I grew up in the deep South, and the Confederacy was a proud part of our legacy, UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation. For example, as soon as the Supreme Court ruled in Brown Vs. Board of Education, my home state of Georgia put the stars and bars on to the Georgia flag in 1956:
150px-Flag_of_the_State_of_Georgia_%281956-2001%29.svg.png


It didn't stop there, of course, it is no longer the symbol of the confederacy. It is the tool of redneck racists.
UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation.

Nobody, subsequent to the Confederacy's defeat, "co-opted all things Confederate" to stand for slavery, segregation and white supremacy. In the words of Alexander Stevens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America:

"The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization."

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition."

"With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system."​

Nobody co-opted history and thereby misrepresented the central belief about what the CSA stood for. Quite simply, and as seen from the words of the VP of the CSA, the Confederates' central belief about white supremacy and slavery formed the cornerstone upon which the CSA was built. Period.
 

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I grew up in the deep South, and the Confederacy was a proud part of our legacy, UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation. For example, as soon as the Supreme Court ruled in Brown Vs. Board of Education, my home state of Georgia put the stars and bars on to the Georgia flag in 1956:
150px-Flag_of_the_State_of_Georgia_%281956-2001%29.svg.png


It didn't stop there, of course, it is no longer the symbol of the confederacy. It is the tool of redneck racists.

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

The guy who carved Mt. Rushmore was fired, and hit upon a sure fire way to stay working for the rest of his life, by proposing the carving on Stone mountain. It was a huge success, because the old South was digging in their heels big time with Jim Crow laws, designed to keep blacks subservient forever. The racial world depicted in "To Kill a Mockingbird" was real. It became much worse, during the depression, because now blacks were entering factories and leaving the fields. That made them an economic threat to the white man. There really was a sign at a county line in Georgia reading, "N***R, don't let the sun go down", implying that he was in danger of being lynched in that county after sunset. I saw it. In the 1950's, if a black man did not shift his gaze to the sidewalk in front of him, when you passed him, it was considered an "uppity" black, looking for trouble. Outside of Atlanta, there was an affluent suburb down Ponce de Leon Avenue which got the first electrified trolleys in the city so that the affluent households there could fill their houses with black servants, who would all be back to the other side of town by trolley when it got dark. I could go on, and on, but the racism I saw growing up was almost as bad of the worst that South Africa ever had.
 
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cnelsen

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So, once all the Confederate monuments come down, everyone will be satisfied? Once the lovely Harriet Tubman replaces Andrew Jackson on the $20, we'll have racial harmony?

Is Harriet Tubman not worthy?
Nope. She wouldn't be even considered if she weren't female and, especially, black. But that's not the point. There would be no effort to remove Jackson and replace him with another white male unless the white male was truly a towering, nation-defining figure. Harriet Tubman is not a towering, nation-defining figure. She's a black female who did something no greater than what a thousand others do every year.
 
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Coyote

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So, once all the Confederate monuments come down, everyone will be satisfied? Once the lovely Harriet Tubman replaces Andrew Jackson on the $20, we'll have racial harmony?

Is Harriet Tubman not worthy?
Nope. She wouldn't be even considered if she weren't female and, especially, black. But that's not the point. There would be no effort to remove Jackson and replace him with another white male unless the white male was truly a towering, nation-defining figure. Harriet Tubman is not a towering, nation-defining figure. She's a black female who did something no greater than what a thousand others do every year.

Harriet Tubman - Wikipedia

I think she did and stood for more then Jackson.
 
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Coyote

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So, once all the Confederate monuments come down, everyone will be satisfied? Once the lovely Harriet Tubman replaces Andrew Jackson on the $20, we'll have racial harmony?

Is Harriet Tubman not worthy?
Nope. She wouldn't be even considered if she weren't female and, especially, black. But that's not the point. There would be no effort to remove Jackson and replace him with another white male unless the white male was truly a towering, nation-defining figure. Harriet Tubman is not a towering, nation-defining figure. She's a black female who did something no greater than what a thousand others do every year.

Harriet Tubman - Wikipedia

I think she did and stood for more then Jackson.
 

Vandalshandle

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I grew up in the deep South, and the Confederacy was a proud part of our legacy, UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation. For example, as soon as the Supreme Court ruled in Brown Vs. Board of Education, my home state of Georgia put the stars and bars on to the Georgia flag in 1956:
150px-Flag_of_the_State_of_Georgia_%281956-2001%29.svg.png


It didn't stop there, of course, it is no longer the symbol of the confederacy. It is the tool of redneck racists.
UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation.

Nobody, subsequent to the Confederacy's defeat, "co-opted all things Confederate" to stand for slavery, segregation and white supremacy. In the words of Alexander Stevens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America:

"The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization."

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition."

"With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system."​

Nobody co-opted history and thereby misrepresented the central belief about what the CSA stood for. Quite simply, and as seen from the words of the VP of the CSA, the Confederates' central belief about white supremacy and slavery formed the cornerstone upon which the CSA was built. Period.

J. Davis was talking to the plantation owners. Hardly any soldiers fought for slavery during the Civil War. They fought because their state had been "invaded". Whites did not compete with blacks in the cotton fields, and few soldiers owned slaves. For the average poor white, it was a non issue, until they lost the war. Then, it was all perceived as the blacks fault. This was REALLY brought home to them during reconstruction, when Northerners came down and had legislators elected who were illiterate blacks. That is when the personal hate really began. When President Arthur withdrew federal troops, the lynchings began.
 

Pete7469

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So, once all the Confederate monuments come down, everyone will be satisfied? Once the lovely Harriet Tubman replaces Andrew Jackson on the $20, we'll have racial harmony?
Not if the bed wetters can keep marginalizing our society as some sort of modern 4th Reich.

ALL OF THE CONFEDERATE MONUMENTS ARE DEMOCROOK PARTY ENDEAVORS.

The KKK was a democrook party militant terrorist organization.

PERIOD.

 

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