communism v capitalism

[progressive hunter]

communism is better than capitalism.
debate me using facts and not ad hominems.

TROLL^^^

nah capitalism sucks ass

only for lazy people,,,

now communism will kill your ass dead,,,

I'd rather have my ass sucked than killed,,,

where's your evidence that communism would kill my ass dead

history over the last 120 yrs,,,

 

[22orchards]

i've been getting a surprising number responses

Oh gee. . . shocker!

What are you. . . 25? 30? 35? No recollection of the cold war or the Mao's cultural revolution eh? No memories of Fidel, that it?

Can't remember the Wall coming down or the E. Germans streaming across the border. . is that your problem?

the soviets were first in the space race and literally only lost in one single aspect: landing on the moon. also their diet was reported to be healthier than the american diet. and germany was never communist, it was fascist. they aren't the same thing.

 

[22orchards]

US Constitution does not make any mention about "communism is better than capitalism." So, debate your soiled, stained paintez that your mother is going to wash tomorrow morning.

Constitution of the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the idea is that communism would work better than the constitution and i couldn't really find another place to post this. also quit using ad hominems, they make your point look invalid.

the constitution has lasted 230yr,,, no communist country has made it 75 yrs,,,

no communist country has ever existed.

OH I forgot youre not that educated,,,

wait a minute,,, how can you say its better of its never existed before???

because the idea of communism is still well explored. by that mentality, innovation is impossible and should be ridiculed.

Under Communism, innovation is impossible.

no it isn't. you're neglecting the idea that maybe people want to learn about stuff for more than just money.

those things dont benefit a society,,,

innovation doesn't benefit a society?



are you dumb?

 

[22orchards]

communism is better than capitalism.
debate me using facts and not ad hominems.

TROLL^^^

nah capitalism sucks ass

only for lazy people,,,

now communism will kill your ass dead,,,

I'd rather have my ass sucked than killed,,,

where's your evidence that communism would kill my ass dead

history over the last 120 yrs,,,

at least i wouldn't be making the poor pay all the taxes while the rich sit on their asses and pay 750 a year in taxes

 

[Soupnazi630]

communism is better than capitalism.
debate me using facts and not ad hominems.

First one has to define ones terms. Communism is NOT a stateless, moneyless, egalitarian, society where the workers own the means of production. Communism is a political ideology which attempts to move towards that utopian society. Which means so long as one is following the prescribed ideology one is a communist and lives within a communist society.

This is why modern communists foolishly claim that the USSR and China and Cuba and any other communist nation are not true communist nations. They are communist nations stuck under the dictatprship of the proletariate.

Marx himself stated that the dictatorship of the proletariate would be necessary to work towards the goal. He specified that no one can know how long the dictatorship will last but that it would last as long as it needs to. Which of course cdan easily mean thousands of years. But as long as that dictatorship claims that they will one day achieve the class less egalitarian society and then the state will whither away and die then that brutal despotic relationship is in fact a communist government. Just skip over the fact but do not forget that NO government just whithers away and dies because they are no longer needed and no government ever will do that.

Make no mistake Marx also stated that said dictatorship would be despotic and that said despotism would be necessary along with violent terror to exterminate the reactionaries. Which means anyone who disagrees. Modern communists ignore this because they lie endlessly claiming that the dictatorship of the proletariate does not mean a literal dictatorship. When in fact that is precisely what Marx meant. Tyrannical, bloodthirsty, brutal, genocidal, dictatorship. Which is precisely what every communist government is.

In contrast capitalism does not rely on such burtality but instead relies on respect and peace. When you want something and pay for it it is a peaceful sign of respect that you and the person selling it are exchanging value for value and no one is taking from another by force. Communism demands such force be applied because people do not ever and never will be inclined to just give all that they are capable of giving to others for nothing. This is why " From each according to his ability and to each according to his need " is a description of the ideal communist world AND a description of slavery. Communism and slavery are one and the same. Slaves have their ability taken from them to benefit another while they are given just what they need. Sure slavery has existed in capitalist nations but was proven to be inneffecient and done away with. Communism simply enslaves EVERYONE and cannot exist without universal slavery.

So if you wish to argue communism is better start by explaining why hanging the words " of the proletariate" after the word dictator makes the dictatorship a good thing. Do not dodge and claim he meant something else. He meant dictatorship and it is absolutely mandatory to have that dictatorship after the revolution. Marx NEVER wrote anything to explain what he meant other than DESPOTISM under the dictatorship.

Then explain how communism is so much better without money which people use to engage in trade. Without it there is only theft and violence.

firstly: i loved reading your response, super well written, super well thought out, overall i liked it a lot.
secondly: i guess you and i had different interpretations of what i meant by communism. i meant the end goal, y'know, that utopia after all the horrible stuff marx described. when it comes to practicality, capitalism is definitely a lot easier than communism, it doesn't require any transitional period because we already exist in capitalism, right. my personal view (and this varies from person to person) is that ideally, to transition to communism, we would skip over the bloodshed by taking things slower, with a more libertarian socialist approach. with a more controlled transition, we could prevent unneeded deaths, as well as create a more thought out society. it's interesting that you use the term universal slavery, it makes me think of capitalism and how ultimately, we're all slaves to whoever has the most money (i.e. amazon, jeff bezos, elon musk, etc).

We are not slaves to those who have the most money.

When has amazon FORCED you to buy their goods? When has Elon Musk forced you to do so?

Some of the biggest, wealthiest corporations are the most prozaic. Mcdonalds, Coca Cola Microsoft etc. None of them force us to do a damn thing.

I cant stand mcdonalds and so I have not spent a dime there in decades and they are helpless to make me do otherwise. That is precisely the opposite of slavery.

SO explain when musk or bezos or anyone else FORCED you to purchase from them. Lack of options does not count.

No one especially YOU can build a communist society without the violence and brutality and bloodshed, you are not that smart. No one is. Explain why you think you can do better than Castro and Mao and Lenin and Stalin and Kim and Pol Pot and MInh and all the others who commited mass murder to bring about the communist revolution and then failed. Why are you so much more gifted so you can make it work better than they did?

Remember the definition of insanity ( or stupidity ) is trying the same idea over and over expecting different results.

You still dodged over my other question. Why would I want to live in a world without money which allows me to engage in peaceful trade with others and instead give all of my labor to the benefit of others while receiving only what others decide I need? Whether I am Bill Gates or just an obscure convenience store clerk my ability is MINE to profit and enrich my own life it is not the right of others to take. The final goal of the perfect communist society dictates that everyone owes all of their ability to others.

You have yet to explain how this society is BETTER.

 

[22orchards]

US Constitution does not make any mention about "communism is better than capitalism." So, debate your soiled, stained paintez that your mother is going to wash tomorrow morning.

Constitution of the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the idea is that communism would work better than the constitution and i couldn't really find another place to post this. also quit using ad hominems, they make your point look invalid.

the constitution has lasted 230yr,,, no communist country has made it 75 yrs,,,

no communist country has ever existed.

OH I forgot youre not that educated,,,

wait a minute,,, how can you say its better of its never existed before???

because the idea of communism is still well explored. by that mentality, innovation is impossible and should be ridiculed.

Mainly because it doesn't work , human beings don't operate the way communism says it works. Sorry.

then you tell me, how does communism work?

thats simple,,,
a small group of people at the very top are in charge and you do what they tell you to do or they kill you,,,

that's not communism, that's totalitarianism

 

[22orchards]

This has has to be a joke, Communism collapsed like dark matter on itself because all things being equal: It was overrun with demagogues. Like the American Democratic party supporting race riots and the BLM.

no country has existed under communism. stop using ad hominems. they make your argument look weaker than it is because you have to employ the use of pathos in a decidedly logos-fueled debate.

did you forget communism is a form of capitalism???,,, just a smaller group of people keep the profits,,,

communism exists under the idea that there is no capital, no money, no class, no private property, and that the people own the means of production.

Fool, communism is a hyper class centric system of government. A dictatorship of the proletariat composed of a few hedonists controls EVERYTHING while the actual proletariat starve and fucking die if they don't worship the party line. The people own nothing. Open a book and read it.

you described capitalism. a dictatorship of the people who own production (it's called the bourgoise by the way), that stand upon the efforts of the working class (the proletariat), who are unable to live how they like because if they don't, they won't have enough money to survive.

Lemme guess...you really don't want to have to get a job.

i have one

 

[progressive hunter]

US Constitution does not make any mention about "communism is better than capitalism." So, debate your soiled, stained paintez that your mother is going to wash tomorrow morning.

Constitution of the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the idea is that communism would work better than the constitution and i couldn't really find another place to post this. also quit using ad hominems, they make your point look invalid.

the constitution has lasted 230yr,,, no communist country has made it 75 yrs,,,

no communist country has ever existed.

OH I forgot youre not that educated,,,

wait a minute,,, how can you say its better of its never existed before???

because the idea of communism is still well explored. by that mentality, innovation is impossible and should be ridiculed.

Under Communism, innovation is impossible.

no it isn't. you're neglecting the idea that maybe people want to learn about stuff for more than just money.

those things dont benefit a society,,,

innovation doesn't benefit a society?



are you dumb?

I guess youre right,, refrigeration hasnt had any positive benefit to anyone,,,

 

[progressive hunter]

US Constitution does not make any mention about "communism is better than capitalism." So, debate your soiled, stained paintez that your mother is going to wash tomorrow morning.

Constitution of the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the idea is that communism would work better than the constitution and i couldn't really find another place to post this. also quit using ad hominems, they make your point look invalid.

the constitution has lasted 230yr,,, no communist country has made it 75 yrs,,,

no communist country has ever existed.

OH I forgot youre not that educated,,,

wait a minute,,, how can you say its better of its never existed before???

because the idea of communism is still well explored. by that mentality, innovation is impossible and should be ridiculed.

Mainly because it doesn't work , human beings don't operate the way communism says it works. Sorry.

then you tell me, how does communism work?

thats simple,,,
a small group of people at the very top are in charge and you do what they tell you to do or they kill you,,,

that's not communism, that's totalitarianism

thats what communism is,,,

your ignorance on the subject is your problem not mine,,,

 

[Soupnazi630]

communism is better than capitalism.
debate me using facts and not ad hominems.

if you dont accept communism they kill you,,,

thats a historic fact,,,

it's also a historic fact that there's never been a communist country. the very term is an oxymoron.

Yes there has as I explained. As long as one is working towards the classless stateless society then it is a communist society.

And killing all those who disagree is the approved method of working towards it

 

[progressive hunter]

communism is better than capitalism.
debate me using facts and not ad hominems.

TROLL^^^

nah capitalism sucks ass

only for lazy people,,,

now communism will kill your ass dead,,,

I'd rather have my ass sucked than killed,,,

where's your evidence that communism would kill my ass dead

history over the last 120 yrs,,,

at least i wouldn't be making the poor pay all the taxes while the rich sit on their asses and pay 750 a year in taxes

thats where your education has failed you,,,

the top wage earners pay the most while the lowest 50% pay nothing,,,

 

[Soupnazi630]

communism is better than capitalism.
debate me using facts and not ad hominems.

TROLL^^^

nah capitalism sucks ass

" nah capitalism suck ass "

Typed on a computer and sent over the internet all of which is made possible by capitalism.

 

[daveman]

i've been getting a surprising number responses

Oh gee. . . shocker!

What are you. . . 25? 30? 35? No recollection of the cold war or the Mao's cultural revolution eh? No memories of Fidel, that it?

Can't remember the Wall coming down or the E. Germans streaming across the border. . is that your problem?

the soviets were first in the space race and literally only lost in one single aspect: landing on the moon. also their diet was reported to be healthier than the american diet. and germany was never communist, it was fascist. they aren't the same thing.

Yeah, that makes up for the millions they killed, doesn't it?

 

[Wyatt earp]

communism is better than capitalism.
debate me using facts and not ad hominems.

First one has to define ones terms. Communism is NOT a stateless, moneyless, egalitarian, society where the workers own the means of production. Communism is a political ideology which attempts to move towards that utopian society. Which means so long as one is following the prescribed ideology one is a communist and lives within a communist society.

This is why modern communists foolishly claim that the USSR and China and Cuba and any other communist nation are not true communist nations. They are communist nations stuck under the dictatprship of the proletariate.

Marx himself stated that the dictatorship of the proletariate would be necessary to work towards the goal. He specified that no one can know how long the dictatorship will last but that it would last as long as it needs to. Which of course cdan easily mean thousands of years. But as long as that dictatorship claims that they will one day achieve the class less egalitarian society and then the state will whither away and die then that brutal despotic relationship is in fact a communist government. Just skip over the fact but do not forget that NO government just whithers away and dies because they are no longer needed and no government ever will do that.

Make no mistake Marx also stated that said dictatorship would be despotic and that said despotism would be necessary along with violent terror to exterminate the reactionaries. Which means anyone who disagrees. Modern communists ignore this because they lie endlessly claiming that the dictatorship of the proletariate does not mean a literal dictatorship. When in fact that is precisely what Marx meant. Tyrannical, bloodthirsty, brutal, genocidal, dictatorship. Which is precisely what every communist government is.

In contrast capitalism does not rely on such burtality but instead relies on respect and peace. When you want something and pay for it it is a peaceful sign of respect that you and the person selling it are exchanging value for value and no one is taking from another by force. Communism demands such force be applied because people do not ever and never will be inclined to just give all that they are capable of giving to others for nothing. This is why " From each according to his ability and to each according to his need " is a description of the ideal communist world AND a description of slavery. Communism and slavery are one and the same. Slaves have their ability taken from them to benefit another while they are given just what they need. Sure slavery has existed in capitalist nations but was proven to be inneffecient and done away with. Communism simply enslaves EVERYONE and cannot exist without universal slavery.

So if you wish to argue communism is better start by explaining why hanging the words " of the proletariate" after the word dictator makes the dictatorship a good thing. Do not dodge and claim he meant something else. He meant dictatorship and it is absolutely mandatory to have that dictatorship after the revolution. Marx NEVER wrote anything to explain what he meant other than DESPOTISM under the dictatorship.

Then explain how communism is so much better without money which people use to engage in trade. Without it there is only theft and violence.

firstly: i loved reading your response, super well written, super well thought out, overall i liked it a lot.
secondly: i guess you and i had different interpretations of what i meant by communism. i meant the end goal, y'know, that utopia after all the horrible stuff marx described. when it comes to practicality, capitalism is definitely a lot easier than communism, it doesn't require any transitional period because we already exist in capitalism, right. my personal view (and this varies from person to person) is that ideally, to transition to communism, we would skip over the bloodshed by taking things slower, with a more libertarian socialist approach. with a more controlled transition, we could prevent unneeded deaths, as well as create a more thought out society. it's interesting that you use the term universal slavery, it makes me think of capitalism and how ultimately, we're all slaves to whoever has the most money (i.e. amazon, jeff bezos, elon musk, etc).

You only have two choices rich private citizens or rich politicians, pick your poison

 

[Soupnazi630]

communism is better than capitalism.
debate me using facts and not ad hominems.

TROLL^^^

nah capitalism sucks ass

only for lazy people,,,

now communism will kill your ass dead,,,

I'd rather have my ass sucked than killed,,,

where's your evidence that communism would kill my ass dead

20 million murdered by their own government in the USSR, 50 million the same in china, hundreds of thousands in cambodia and in north vietnam ( not the war casaulties ) millions and still piling up in north korea. hundreds of thousands in cuba if not millions.

It is not possible without genocide.

Notice how no one defends national socialism saying " oh its a great idea and we can make it work without the mass murder of jews"

Because you cannot make it work without said genocide whether you mean naziism or communism.

 

[Wyatt earp]

i've been getting a surprising number responses

Oh gee. . . shocker!

What are you. . . 25? 30? 35? No recollection of the cold war or the Mao's cultural revolution eh? No memories of Fidel, that it?

Can't remember the Wall coming down or the E. Germans streaming across the border. . is that your problem?

the soviets were first in the space race and literally only lost in one single aspect: landing on the moon. also their diet was reported to be healthier than the american diet. and germany was never communist, it was fascist. they aren't the same thing.

Of vodka???

 

[Soupnazi630]

i've been getting a surprising number responses

Oh gee. . . shocker!

What are you. . . 25? 30? 35? No recollection of the cold war or the Mao's cultural revolution eh? No memories of Fidel, that it?

Can't remember the Wall coming down or the E. Germans streaming across the border. . is that your problem?

the soviets were first in the space race and literally only lost in one single aspect: landing on the moon. also their diet was reported to be healthier than the american diet. and germany was never communist, it was fascist. they aren't the same thing.

Yes they did accomplish a list of firsts in the space race. Which means ? ..................nothing. Their diet was never reported to be better outside of state propaganda which was proven to be fiction. During the holodomor which, was deliberately implemented by lenin and stalin , the state propaganda agency had to print posters adminishing people that it is " immoral to eat your own children ". This was necessary because they deliberately starved people into submission with such effectiveness that parents were eating the bodies of their own kids.

All through the seventies and eighties they HAD to import massive amouunts of grain from the US which was surplus from our farmers. This is because they could not feed their own population despite having many times more fertile and rich farmland than the US does.

The average soviet citizen often had to send boys into the woods to find wild birds nests to collect small eggs because they lacked protein.

But yes they shot a few people into space ahead of us without so much as a wiondow to observe the environment of space and learn a few things

East Germany was communist after wwII.

 

[night_son]

One fucking word defines communism. Never forget it.

DEMOCIDE

Look it up.

 

[MisterBeale]

i've been getting a surprising number responses

Oh gee. . . shocker!

What are you. . . 25? 30? 35? No recollection of the cold war or the Mao's cultural revolution eh? No memories of Fidel, that it?

Can't remember the Wall coming down or the E. Germans streaming across the border. . is that your problem?

the soviets were first in the space race and literally only lost in one single aspect: landing on the moon. also their diet was reported to be healthier than the american diet. and germany was never communist, it was fascist. they aren't the same thing.

IOW. . . You ARE a millenial, and you didn't live that history, you only know what you have been propagandized with, read out of books, or think you know.

I am not talking about Nazi Germany, I am talking about Communist E. Germany. The German 'democratic' Republic? eh?






And your statements about the Soviet diet? Preposterous. Malnutrition was the real problem they had toward the end. And in the beginning? Have you even heard of the The Holodomor ?

The amount of food you were allotted depended greatly on your patronage of the party line, not on how well you worked, or your contribution to society. It was all about who you knew, everything in society was politicized. Corruption was terrible, worse than it is now in the U.S. That is always that case with large government controlled societies, whether they are right wing or left wing.

This is what the situation looked like in a typical supermarket in Moscow, right before the end. It was worse than second world nations like Mexico. . . and they were the world's supposed second most powerful nation. The only folks that lived half-way decent lives were yes, cosmonauts, scientists and scholars, top rank military and politicians, and Olympiads and propagandists. . . everyone else suffered. That is the way it has been in EVERY COMMUNIST NATION THAT HAS EVER EXISTED. The only exception is those that have chosen Dirigisme. But then, those aren't really communism, are they? China, has sort of, morphed into state capitalism, hasn't it?




. . . now. Do we have problems in the US today because of government collusion with industry, and the elite classes causing corruption and lawlessness in society? You bet. Are we headed toward total societal breakdown like the Soviet Union. . . probably, if the elites controlling the show don't get their act together and wise up.

. . . but, bear this in mind, THEY are the one brainwashing you with delusions of technocracy, don't swallow that poison, it won't lead to utopia, only slavery, prison, destitution and death.

 

[MisterBeale]

"When anybody preaches disunity, tries to pit one of us against the other through class warfare, race hatred, or religious intolerance, you know that person seeks to rob us of our freedom and destroy our very lives."