Classified documents discovered at Mike Pence’s home in Indiana

[Seymour Flops]

All three of them didn't spend years demonizing the FBI, like Trump did.

So criticizing the FBI makes Trump fair game for whatever the DOJ/FBI wants to do to him?

I know Democrooks believe that, but you're the first I've seen admitting it.

As they should have been.

(at my house if there was an anonymous report that I had classified documents at my house) Yes, if they had reason to believe that i had kept classified documents from my job, a search warrant would have been reasonable. The difference is that they would not find anything and I could be confident that they would have no reason to bring documents in their cargo pants to claim to have found. But then, I haven't spent years demonizing the FBI. Thank you for acknowledging that that is what made the difference between one politican and the others. Use of free speech.

Probably not, because mostly when you are a senior official, there's very little distinction between your home and office life.

I think you mean probably so, that senior officials to take work home.

So the real question here is, what was the INTENT of the principles involved in retaining documents after their service had ended.

In the case of Hillary, the documents in question were usually at the bottom of an email that someone else sent her electronically. She was careless in using her personal devices for government business, to be sure, but the government devices were probably about ten years behind in technology,

What was in the documents that Hillary destroyed without letting the FBI see them because she deemed them not relevant? If you don't know the answer to that, your argument in regards to her falls apart.

I watched a lot of the Hillary grilling on Capitol Hill and I never remember her justifying her private server by saying that State Department technology was too outdated for her. They asked her if she had wiped her server and she said, "like with a cloth?" so I don't think she is a technology wonk that would be annoyed by slow equipment. Her server was less secure than if she had had a gmail account. So, she did not bother to hire the best technicians.

and Condi Rice and Colin Powell did the same thing.

No, they did not do "the same thing." Neither one of them had a physical server at their house filled with classified information.

In the days surrounding the revelations about Hillary's operating a private server to keep her correspondence as Sec State away from the Dept State, Colin Powel was discovered to have two - count 'em two - documents in his private account that were not marked classified but were later determined by someone to have information classified at the CONFIDENTIAL level. Rice used no email during her time as secretary, but her staff was found to have about ten classified documents in improper email accounts.

Any comparison between those two and Hillary is absurd. No coincidence that you chose two black people to throw under the bus. That story makes Rice sound like the smartest person in the room - again.

In the case of Biden and Pence, it's pretty clear that when clearing their offices, underlings packed documents in the wrong boxes. The Archives weren't even aware these documents were missing. Again. No criminal intent.

That is not clear, that is spin. We don't know enough details about either to make that claim. It is much more likely that Pence had documents at his home because he was the vice president of the United States and he worked from early to rise to late to bed. Pence has earned respect from both sides of isle as a man of integrity, so he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Biden, on the other hand, is a political gangster who is known for his self-enrichment and enrichment of his son who funneled money to him in the form of 50K rent on his own father's house. When a pile of classified documents are found stored in a home that his son who was employed by corrupt adversaries of the U.S. has access to, the innocent explanation shouldn't be the first go-to.

Trump, on the other hand, after being impeached twice and trying to overthrow democracy, snuck out of the White House with boxes he was directly told he wasn't allowed to have, and fought with the FBI for months before they finally got sick and tired of his shit and raided his home/golf club after his own family ratted him out.

You already said that the FBI conducted the raid in retaliation for Trump's mean tweets about them. Don't backpedal now after I complimented your honesty. I wouldn't call Trump a political gangster, since he did not need his office to enrich himself. But he is a political hustler, so he also doesn't deserve to have his actions interpretted in the most innocent light.

He wanted to keep those "documents with classified markings" (not "classified documents") for a reason. I believe that he wanted to keep the Crossfire-Hurricane documents that he declassified in writing and ordered the DOJ to release. They never released those documents (so much for "Trump's DOJ"), but he kept a copy or two so he could release them himself some day.

That is my theory, but the FBI is welcome to indict Trump and prove otherwise.

When you think they'll get around to that?

 

[JoeB131]

I didn't get vaccinated and never caught the virus. Now what is your answer?

YOu mean you haven't caught the virus yet.

 

[JoeB131]

So criticizing the FBI makes Trump fair game for whatever the DOJ/FBI wants to do to him?

Pretty much. Just like if a cop pulls me over and I say, "Fuck You, Pig! Black Lives Matter!" I should thoroughly expect to get cuffed, bent over the hood of my car while the cops search my trunk for drugs or dead hookers.

On the other hand, if I am courteous to a police officer who is just doing his job, I have a good chance of being let off with just a warning.

Same thing with Trump, the FBI was just doing its job. He demonized them and even fired their director thinking that would put an end to legitimate investigations against him.

What was in the documents that Hillary destroyed without letting the FBI see them because she deemed them not relevant? If you don't know the answer to that, your argument in regards to her falls apart.

Not at all. She hadn't been Secretary of State for years after people started asking about her emails. There's no reason to think she should have retained them. I don't retain emails for more than a year in either my job or personal life. I often delete them within weeks.

I watched a lot of the Hillary grilling on Capitol Hill and I never remember her justifying her private server by saying that State Department technology was too outdated for her. They asked her if she had wiped her server and she said, "like with a cloth?" so I don't think she is a technology wonk that would be annoyed by slow equipment. Her server was less secure than if she had had a gmail account. So, she did not bother to hire the best technicians.

You don't have to be a wonk to be annoyed by a system that freezes up.

No, they did not do "the same thing." Neither one of them had a physical server at their house filled with classified information.

No, they used private email accounts through national carriers. That was MUCH less secure. Of course, we have no idea what was on Powell's emails, because when Congress asked for them to find out how we got into a war over weapons that didn't exist, he admitted he deleted them years ago.

You already said that the FBI conducted the raid in retaliation for Trump's mean tweets about them. Don't backpedal now after I complimented your honesty. I wouldn't call Trump a political gangster, since he did not need his office to enrich himself. But he is a political hustler, so he also doesn't deserve to have his actions interpretted in the most innocent light.

First, Trump isn't as rich as he tells you he is.
Second, the man is a natural born grifter. He doesn't grift because he has to. He grifts because that is his nature. Just ask yourself what happened to the $250 million that he collected to help GOP candidates in 2022.
If we lived in a sane country, five minutes after January 6th, Trump would have been slapped in irons and sent to prison for life.

He wanted to keep those "documents with classified markings" (not "classified documents") for a reason. I believe that he wanted to keep the Crossfire-Hurricane documents that he declassified in writing and ordered the DOJ to release. They never released those documents (so much for "Trump's DOJ"), but he kept a copy or two so he could release them himself some day.

If that was the case, why not, you know, actually release them. Or turn them over to Durham... Oh, wait, Durham is part of the deep state now, too!

 

[Blaster]

YOu mean you haven't caught the virus yet.

Maybe I did and thought it was only a cold.

 

[Cougarbear]

You talking about the Putin flunky?

Did Iran, Iraq, Syria or the Palestinians sign one?

Why aren't we at war yet?

LOL.

The new numbers were published Thursday in NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg's annual report for 2021. While figures show more members of the Cold War-era military alliance are meeting their spending commitments, they confirm a complaint from some Republicans, and others, that member countries aren't paying their fair share.

When is Mexico going to pay for the wall?

So why are right wingers whining about the border if Trump fixed it. Why are you whining about the cartels and drugs if Trump fixed it.

We have never been energy independent, right wing talking point.

Trump-O-Meter : Tracking Trump's Campaign Promises | PolitiFact

PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter.

www.politifact.com

Hard to drain the swamp, when you are the main creature swimming in it.

Left wing talking point lies is all you have? Why did Putin attack only when a Democrat President is in the Oval Office?
Trump had the election stolen and the continuance of more Islamic countries stopped because Biden is anti-Israel as was Obama. Saudi Arabia was next on the the signing with Israel. But, Biden put a screeching halt to that as with other countries. But, as more and more were ready to sign with Israel, that would have forced the Palestinians to the table and leave Iran hanging to dry on the vine. But, stupid Democrats voted for the old windbag Biden and now we have violence there again. Way to go Democrats and Rhino Bush Republicans as well.

We aren't at war with NK yet because of what Trump did. But, we see Rocket Man starting up again shooting missiles. Biden is weak as are all Democrats. That's what Putin sees too. Way to go Democrats and stupid Rhino Republicans. All because of the meanie Trump. As Reagan said, Peace through Strength, not the Democrat weaklings.

 

[Cougarbear]

Wow, guy, all that mormon Brainwashing really did make you stupid, didn't it?



Uh, it has everything to do with class... If you are poor you are less likely to reach that age to even collect them, and the monetary benefits go far more to white people than people of color.


Until it wasn't. Unemployment has been declining since 2010, and it has less to do with any president's policy than it has to do with the mass retirement of baby boomers without enough Gen Z to replace them.




He didn't "start" it, but his criminal incompetence made it ten times worse than it needed to be.



Who says they aren't? Are they less likely to knock themselves out for a job that doesn't pay well? Um, yeah, I guess. Can't really blame them, either.



Wow..so much wrong with this... so much. You think that someone who has already gained experience in another field is going to rush out and take a burger flipper job just because they started offering a "living wage" for it?

Now, rising wages ARE a factor in inflation, because of the aforementioned labor shortage. (Simplest solution, start fast tracking those immigrants into working jobs). But a bigger factor is in fact the global increase in the costs of commodities.



Actually, if you worked in Supply Chain, as I have, you'd know we were having problems at the ports long before Biden got there. Part of the problem is that for years, we haven't expanded capacity at them. Another part of the problem is TRUMP PLAGUE took out a sizeable portion of that workforce.



Actually, Biden inherited an economy with 6% unemployment, he got it down to 3.5%. Trump incompetence in dealing with Covid killed all those businesses because it was impossible for small businesses to get promised loans.


Actually, Florida had the third highest number of Covid Deaths, far more than the states that did shut down except for CA and NY, which were the first hit.

How deep is that sand you have your head in? Biden hasn't done a thing to help the unemployment. The people have done that after the people began to rise up and stop taking the Covid19 crap from the Democrats. States like Florida did not have unemployment problems because they didn't shut down. They did a few things in the beginning but didn't go along with the Biden and Fauci hysteria. If it was up to Biden, he'd still have the country shut down. Let's also remember what Obama-Biden did after 2008 debacle; The unemployment rose but not like it was before. People were finding only lower paying jobs and most were working 2 or 3 jobs jus to make what they were with the 1 job they used to have. After 3 1/2 years of Trump, the economy was strong and people were again earning enough in 1 job to pay their bills. Incomes skyrocketed for the lower and middle class from the disastrous years under Obama-Biden rule. So, the only reason you note the 6% unemployment bump was due to Democrat run states and cities over Covid19. What Trump was able to do is get a "vaccine" (not really a vaccine) out just in time for Biden to role it out slowly and pathetically. It only really helped against the original Covid19 strain and Delta strain. Since then, everyone is getting it and it's not any more lethal now than the flu. People are dying "with" Covid, not from Covid. The lies keep coming from the commie left wing Democrat controlled fake media.

Inflation is still a problem. All due to Biden's energy programs that shut down access to more oil. We were energy independent with Trump. We no longer needed OPEC oil nor Venezuelan oil or anyone else's. That's because of our neighbors that were getting in line with Trump, Canada and Mexico. The trade was all set up. No more need for OPEC or any other enemies of the U.S., Canada and Mexico. But, Biden comes along and with the false Climate Change idiots, stops much of it so that now we need more oil, not less, we have to go to our enemies to get it at a higher price. This causes all sorts of problems like costs over seas going up, ports not working properly and just the cost of shipping our food around our country all goes up. Way to go Biden. And, now the nut cases want to eliminate gas cars and stoves. Dumb and dumber the Democrats and Rhino Republicans get.

 

[Coyote]

Lol, okay then Pence is okay, but Biden took classified documents when he was a senator. You gonna tell me now that senators have authority to take them?

Senators can as well. They have the same security clearance by virtue of their office as VP and P, and the same ability to take out material with proper authorization. So do certain other officials such as agency heads if they have the clearance.

 

[jknowgood]

Senators can as well. They have the same security clearance by virtue of their office as VP and P, and the same ability to take out material with proper authorization. So do certain other officials such as agency heads if they have the clearance.

If a senator wants to see classified documents they go to a basement to read it and there is no taking it you.

 

[BlackSand]

.

A President can Create Classified Documents as President.
Certain Departments can create Classified Documents as long as they are in the Registry.
Certain Agencies can create Classified Documents as long as it is their duty, and they are in the Registry.

Once a Classified Document is Created ... It is owned by the Creator ...
Until it is surrendered to the National Archives or Declassified.

I think we do have a problem with people not understanding exactly how Classified Documents are supposed to be handled ...
And whose responsibility it is to ensure that they are.

.​

 

[Coyote]

If a senator wants to see classified documents they go to a basement to read it and there is no taking it you.

Actually that is not at all clear. The Senate and House routinely receive and generate a large amount material and they each seem to have their own rules regarding it. I also know for a fact you do not need to go to a special room to read any classified material. I worked in a job where I had a security clearance for material classified as “confidential“ , the lowest level, and our office also received Secret classified material. There were rules about how to handle it and secure it For each of the three levels.

Biden would have had the right to access all levels of classified material as a senator, as I understand it. The rules pertaining to it’s secure handling would depend on the classification level and those same rules apply to a VP and a P.

 

[BlackSand]

If a senator wants to see classified documents they go to a basement to read it and there is no taking it you.

.

Even the Most Highly Classified Documents can be removed or taken out of a SCIF ... With authorization.
It is the responsibility of the Creator of the Document to ensure the document and the information contained therein is handled properly.

.​

 

[Coyote]

Hillary got kid glove treatment when she had classified documents in her home. So will Biden and Pence. All three were allowed to have their lawyers search for classified documents, instead of the FBI doing it.

Truth be told though, Trump also got much better treatment than I would have gotten if I were suspected to have classified documents at my house. I once worked with classifed documents, a lot of them. That was decades ago. But if someone made an anonymous call to the FBI and told them I had a box of classified docs in my house, their would have gotten a warrant immediately and been at my house before the ink was dry.

Let's not pretend that it isn't a common practice for senior officials to take work home with them and a common practice for law enforcement to igore them doing so.

Trump also got kid glove treatment. They spent a year begging him to return it.

You and I would be in jail.

 

[jknowgood]

Actually that is not at all clear. The Senate and House routinely receive and generate a large amount material and they each seem to have their own rules regarding it. I also know for a fact you do not need to go to a special room to read any classified material. I worked in a job where I had a security clearance for material classified as “confidential“ and our office also received Secret classified material. There were rules about how to handle it and secure it For each of the three levels.

Biden would have had the right to access all levels of classified material as a senator, as I understand it. The rules pertaining to it’s secure handling would depend on the classification level and those same rules apply to a VP and a P.

Well obviously he had documents he shouldn't have. He is having to give them back. The bad part is the places he had them stored, one China had access to, and the house that Biden refuses to give of up the visitor log.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Pretty much. Just like if a cop pulls me over and I say, "Fuck You, Pig! Black Lives Matter!" I should thoroughly expect to get cuffed, bent over the hood of my car while the cops search my trunk for drugs or dead hookers.

What Trump said about the FBI wasn't even close to "Fuck you, Pig!"

He talked about the corruption in the FBI investigation that is well-proven and well-documented.

On the other hand, if I am courteous to a police officer who is just doing his job, I have a good chance of being let off with just a warning.

Sorry, I don't take this servile view toward our employees. I'm courteous to everyone, but if a cop gives me a ticket because I have a Trump-Pence sticker on my car withe Pence scratched out, I'm going to talk about whether it offends him or not.

Same thing with Trump, the FBI was just doing its job. He demonized them and even fired their director thinking that would put an end to legitimate investigations against him.

We know from the Strozk-Page texts that the investigations were anything but legitimate.

Not at all. She hadn't been Secretary of State for years after people started asking about her emails. There's no reason to think she should have retained them. I don't retain emails for more than a year in either my job or personal life. I often delete them within weeks.

No, they used private email accounts through national carriers. That was MUCH less secure. Of course, we have no idea what was on Powell's emails, because when Congress asked for them to find out how we got into a war over weapons that didn't exist, he admitted he deleted them years ago.

Hillary didn't tell the FBI, "sorry, I deleted those emails years ago." She said that some of them were "not relevant," so she wasn't going to hand them over.

But since she was a Democrat, no FBI raid.

First, Trump isn't as rich as he tells you he is.

Nothing interests me less than conspiracy theories about Trump not being as rich as he claims. He's a braggart and an exagerator, so I'm sure isn't. Don't affect me at all. Democrazies are at their most bizarre when they express their envy for Trump's money and in the next breath denounce him for not being rich.

If that was the case, why not, you know, actually release them. Or turn them over to Durham... Oh, wait, Durham is part of the deep state now, too!

He should release them. I dont' know why he did not release them immediately. I guess he's still trying hard to play by the rules, no matter how many examples he sees of Democrats beating him by not playing by the rules.

 

[JoeB131]

Uh, wow this is one piss-ignorant Mormon Cultist. Did they give you a receipt for that brainwashing?

How deep is that sand you have your head in? Biden hasn't done a thing to help the unemployment.

You mean other than the Stimulus bill that caused unemployment to drop from 6% to 3.5%. Look, bro, I know it would KILL you to give Biden credit for anything, but the economy was still shit in 2020, and Biden took the actions to stimulate it.

The people have done that after the people began to rise up and stop taking the Covid19 crap from the Democrats.

Which people were those? Actually, the reason why the economy recovered from Covid was because of Vaccine distribution, which once Biden sorted out Trumps fucked up rollout, you guys opposed and screamed and stomped your little feet about getting the jab. (which just prolonged the problem.)

States like Florida did not have unemployment problems because they didn't shut down. They did a few things in the beginning but didn't go along with the Biden and Fauci hysteria.

Florida's unemployment rate was just as bad as the rest of the country. In some ways worse because tourism came to a crashing halt.

If it was up to Biden, he'd still have the country shut down. Let's also remember what Obama-Biden did after 2008 debacle; The unemployment rose but not like it was before. People were finding only lower paying jobs and most were working 2 or 3 jobs jus to make what they were with the 1 job they used to have. After 3 1/2 years of Trump, the economy was strong and people were again earning enough in 1 job to pay their bills.

Actually, what happened in 2010 was that Obama got less than 1 Trillion in Stimulus money, compared to the 2.3 trillion spent by Trump and the 1.9 Trillion spent by Biden. You see, you never get out of a recession with massive government spending. It just doesn't happen.

The economy was not "Strong" under Drumpf. He had the same weak less than 3% a year GDP growth that Obama had. Until he screwed up Covid and sent the economy crashing.

Incomes skyrocketed for the lower and middle class from the disastrous years under Obama-Biden rule. So, the only reason you note the 6% unemployment bump was due to Democrat run states and cities over Covid19. What Trump was able to do is get a "vaccine" (not really a vaccine) out just in time for Biden to role it out slowly and pathetically. It only really helped against the original Covid19 strain and Delta strain. Since then, everyone is getting it and it's not any more lethal now than the flu. People are dying "with" Covid, not from Covid. The lies keep coming from the commie left wing Democrat controlled fake media.

A couple of points here. First, incomes didn't skyrocket under Trump. They continued their same steady climb.

Inflation is still a problem. All due to Biden's energy programs that shut down access to more oil. We were energy independent with Trump. We no longer needed OPEC oil nor Venezuelan oil or anyone else's.

Again, another misrepresentation. We are not "energy independent". Petroleum is an internationally traded commodity. We sell oil to Japan, we buy it from Venezuela.

Our net oil imports started their decline in 2006. Part of that due to greater energy efficiency, part of that due to increased production, part of that due to the market making oil production in the US more profitable. Part of that is that we make more profit exporting refined products. We never stopped becoming a net importer of crude oil.

That's because of our neighbors that were getting in line with Trump, Canada and Mexico. The trade was all set up. No more need for OPEC or any other enemies of the U.S., Canada and Mexico. But, Biden comes along and with the false Climate Change idiots, stops much of it so that now we need more oil, not less, we have to go to our enemies to get it at a higher price.

This isn't true, either. Oil production crashed in the US because of Covid (TRUMP PLAGUE), but bounced right back. The problem is, demand increased pretty much everywhere else in the world. It really doesn't matter if the Crude comes from an oil field down the road or Saudi Arabia, it's STILL going to cost the same.

This causes all sorts of problems like costs over seas going up, ports not working properly and just the cost of shipping our food around our country all goes up. Way to go Biden. And, now the nut cases want to eliminate gas cars and stoves. Dumb and dumber the Democrats and Rhino Republicans get.

Gas stoves should be phased out because they are unhealthy. You burn natural gas with nowhere for it to go, you are putting carbon monoxide in your home. Duh.

When will we run out of fossil fuels? - Freeing Energy

Will we ever really run out of fossil fuels? If so, when will it happen? We asked the fossil fuel industry and shared their answers.

www.freeingenergy.com

Here's the problem. No matter how much we produce, there's only a finite amount of petroleum products in the world. The world will be out of petroleum and natural gas in 50 years at current consumption rates. Climate Change aside, we actually really do need to address alternatives - Bio Fuel, wind, solar, nuclear -

 

[Superbadbrutha]

Jim Jordan showing the hypocrisy of Republicans when it comes to classified documents. Good job Chuck Todd.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Here's the problem. No matter how much we produce, there's only a finite amount of petroleum products in the world. The world will be out of petroleum and natural gas in 50 years at current consumption rates. Climate Change aside, we actually really do need to address alternatives - Bio Fuel, wind, solar, nuclear -

Taking your source at its word we will "run out" of economically viable crude oil in fifty years, for the sake of discussion. It won't be as you imagine, a sudden cessation of oil coming through the pumps, with a loud slurping sound as we have hit bottom. The fuel that is not "economically viable," is fuel that cannot be extracted as cheaply as other fuels. It can still be extracted.

Starting in fifty years (taking your source at its word), oil will be more difficult to extract - not gone. It won't be a sudden shift from easy oil to difficult oil. When that gradually occurs, a number of things will happen to the energy market, assuming that the Wokesters have not succeeded in complely controlling the economy by then, and there is still a viable free market.

1) Producers will keep drilling and pumping and charge more for the more difficult to extract oil. Remember that drilling and pumping technology will have advanced by fifty years in that time.

2) Entrepreneurs like Elon Musk will get a boost in sales of electric vehicles as gasoline prices at the pump increase enough to actually make them worth it. Remember that the electric car technology will have advanced for fifty years during that time.

3) Suppliers of electricity to homes and businesses will start to shift to solar, wind, hydroelectric, and other non-petroleum based generation methods. Remember that the non-petroleum generation methods will be advanced by fifty years.

4) Home and business owners will opt more and more to generate their own electricity using non-petroleum based methods as many do now. Remember that prosumer electricity generation technology will have advanced by fifty years.

5) Alternative energy technology now in the nascent phase, such as enhanced geothermal systems, floating offshore wind, coal carbon capture and storage (CCS), natural gas and biopower CCS, small modular nuclear reactors, and renewable fuel combustion turbines. Remember that these now-nascent technologies will be advanced by fifty years.

Joe, I always wonder whether posters like you really believe their own sky-is-falling predictions, or are just trying to win arguments based on emotions. For your sake, I truly hope it is the latter, because it would be very stressful to be you if you are sincere in your fears.

 

[JoeB131]

Taking your source at its word we will "run out" of economically viable crude oil in fifty years, for the sake of discussion. It won't be as you imagine, a sudden cessation of oil coming through the pumps, with a loud slurping sound as we have hit bottom. The fuel that is not "economically viable," is fuel that cannot be extracted as cheaply as other fuels. It can still be extracted.

Starting in fifty years (taking your source at its word), oil will be more difficult to extract - not gone. It won't be a sudden shift from easy oil to difficult oil. When that gradually occurs, a number of things will happen to the energy market, assuming that the Wokesters have not succeeded in complely controlling the economy by then, and there is still a viable free market.

Difficult to extract means ridiculously expensive and bad for the environment.

Joe, I always wonder whether posters like you really believe their own sky-is-falling predictions, or are just trying to win arguments based on emotions. For your sake, I truly hope it is the latter, because it would be very stressful to be you if you are sincere in your fears.

I'm not personally worried, I'll be dead by then. I do worry about family members who are going to end up having to live in the Mad Max world you fucknuts want to create.

Hey, look, it's one of those free market guys you think is going to save us.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Difficult to extract means ridiculously expensive and bad for the environment.



I'm not personally worried, I'll be dead by then. I do worry about family members who are going to end up having to live in the Mad Max world you fucknuts want to create.

Hey, look, it's one of those free market guys you think is going to save us.
View attachment 752154

I guess I can't argue logic if ya seen it at the pictures.

 

[JoeB131]

I guess I can't argue logic if ya seen it at the pictures.

You aren't arguing "logic". You are arguing "I don't want to give up my lifestyle even though it's dangerous and not sustainable."

If we have 50 years before all the petrol runs out, then we need to be thinking out the alternatives now, and there are plenty of them.