Civil War could have been avoided through negotiation

[Mac1958]

i'm on a slightly different internal monalogue. i've been wondering why i , we, are not susceptible. perhaps it is subliminal stuff on channels i do not watch?

That's a helluva question. I think that some people are just more susceptible to some kind of hardcore ideology. I don't think that it's a function of intelligence, either. One of my closest friends, a very intelligent guy, is down the orange rabbit hole.

I've done a lot of reading on the subconscious. When you combine a basic (normal) bias with repetition and increasing isolation, your subconscious can be trained to believe some pretty insane things. To your point, you kind of create your own subliminal conditions.

This particular one is a weird blend of three sociological currents: Political, religious and cultural (cult). It's a lifestyle. And it's somehow grabbed, what, about 25% to 30% of the country. The rest are those who just sell their soul to politics and go along for the ride.

 

[Mac1958]

They love Trump because he's one of them & vice versa. The Country will NEVER be the same. It's over.

Or, he has somehow convinced them that he's one of them. He certainly isn't.

Yeah, when this first happened, I kind of assumed it would be a short term thing. I was definitely wrong.

 

[rampart]

That's a helluva question. I think that some people are just more susceptible to some kind of hardcore ideology. I don't think that it's a function of intelligence, either. One of my closest friends, a very intelligent guy, is down the orange rabbit hole.

I've done a lot of reading on the subconscious. When you combine a basic (normal) bias with repetition and increasing isolation, your subconscious can be trained to believe some pretty insane things. To your point, you kind of create your own subliminal conditions.

This particular one is a weird blend of three sociological currents: Political, religious and cultural (cult). It's a lifestyle. And it's somehow grabbed, what, about 25% to 30% of the country. The rest are those who just sell their soul to politics and go along for the ride.

or perhaps "tds" evolved as a resistance to "know nothingism" like sickle cell is to malaria.

for "conservatives." the "know nothings" were a significant portion of the original repub coalition. they seem to have multiplied. exponentially.

 

[Mac1958]

or perhaps "tds" evolved as a resistance to "know nothingism" like sickle cell is to malaria.

for "conservatives." the "know nothings" were a significant portion of the original repub coalition. they seem to have multiplied. exponentially.

Yeah, that's another critical piece of this. This massive sociopolitical sleeper cell that was waiting for someone to come along and give the OK.

 

[Mac1958]

rampart, here's an interview with a psychologist who has been sounding the alarm on this since Trump won. She really speaks to what has been my personal concern: What this period says about us, sociologically.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Trump is right, we needed more statesmen back then who were willing to negotiate in order to prevent war from breaking out. So many lives lost for nothing. Lincoln should be remembered for that.

---He added Lincoln could have negotiated to avoid the war, but he would not have been as well-known as he is today.---

Trump says Civil War could have been negotiated

Former President Trump said he believed the Civil War could have been avoided through negotiation, though that would’ve changed the legacy of former President Lincoln. Trump, at an Iowa rally Saturday, said he finds the conflict “fascinating” but “so horrible.” He also noted the high death toll...

news.yahoo.com

No, he's not right.

Had there been negotiations then slavery would NOT have ended. The ONLY way slavery was going to end was with war.

 

[Chillicothe]

While I appreciate the broader view of the sociological implications of Trumpism and MAGA-QAnon that several posters here have articulated, my own view is a tad more pedestrian.

Meaning, I am fairly skeptical of any view of historical events that Don Trump may voice.

After all, this is the bloke who had to ask his Chief of Staff, General Kelley, what the Arizona memorial in Hawaii was honoring. He's also the dotard who opined that our Continental army in 1778 won because they captured the British airports.


To wit:
"Trump seemed to know next to nothing about the events of Dec. 7, 1941 when he visited Pearl Harbor in Hawaii for a private tour of the U.S.S. Arizona Memorial alongside his former White House Chief of Staff John Kelly, a retired Marine Corps general.
"Hey, John, what's this all about?" Trump reportedly asked Kelly. "What's this a tour of?"

To wit:
"The Continental Army suffered a bitter winter of Valley Forge, found glory across the waters of the Delaware, and seized victory from Cornwallis of Yorktown. Our army manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do."

’
----------------------------------------


ps....because I thought this next observation by Kelly was disturbingly informative, I'm including it here with my Don Trump-historian, post:

"Inspired by the Bastille Day parade, except for the section of the parade featuring wounded French veterans in wheelchairs, Trump tells Kelly, “Look, I don’t want any wounded guys in the parade.”

“Those are the heroes,” Kelly said. “In our society, there’s only one group of people who are more heroic than they are – and they are buried over in Arlington.”

“I don’t want them,” Trump said. “It doesn’t look good for me.”

 

[rampart]

While I appreciate the broader view of the sociological implications of Trumpism and MAGA-QAnon that several posters here have articulated, my own view is a tad more pedestrian.

Meaning, I am fairly skeptical of any view of historical events that Don Trump may voice.

After all, this is the bloke who had to ask his Chief of Staff, General Kelley, what the Arizona memorial in Hawaii was honoring. He's also the dotard who opined that our Continental army in 1778 won because they captured the British airports.


To wit:
"Trump seemed to know next to nothing about the events of Dec. 7, 1941 when he visited Pearl Harbor in Hawaii for a private tour of the U.S.S. Arizona Memorial alongside his former White House Chief of Staff John Kelly, a retired Marine Corps general.
"Hey, John, what's this all about?" Trump reportedly asked Kelly. "What's this a tour of?"

To wit:
"The Continental Army suffered a bitter winter of Valley Forge, found glory across the waters of the Delaware, and seized victory from Cornwallis of Yorktown. Our army manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do."

’
----------------------------------------


ps....because I thought this next observation by Kelly was disturbingly informative, I'm including it here with my Don Trump-historian, post:

"Inspired by the Bastille Day parade, except for the section of the parade featuring wounded French veterans in wheelchairs, Trump tells Kelly, “Look, I don’t want any wounded guys in the parade.”

“Those are the heroes,” Kelly said. “In our society, there’s only one group of people who are more heroic than they are – and they are buried over in Arlington.”

“I don’t want them,” Trump said. “It doesn’t look good for me.”

more evidence that al franken is correct. trump is one of the great stand up comedians, and maybe the greatest insult dog.

any stable genius like trump is smarter than the historians. who you gonna believe, your favorite president or that dunning kreuger guy.

 

[dudmuck]

Trump is right, we needed more statesmen back then who were willing to negotiate in order to prevent war from breaking out. So many lives lost for nothing. Lincoln should be remembered for that.

---He added Lincoln could have negotiated to avoid the war, but he would not have been as well-known as he is today.---

Trump says Civil War could have been negotiated

Former President Trump said he believed the Civil War could have been avoided through negotiation, though that would’ve changed the legacy of former President Lincoln. Trump, at an Iowa rally Saturday, said he finds the conflict “fascinating” but “so horrible.” He also noted the high death toll...

news.yahoo.com

For claiming to be "the party of Lincoln", republicans sure do love to defend the flags and statues of his enemies.

 

[whitehall]

Not only "could have" but should have. Lincoln should have done everything he could in congress and among the southern states to avoid secession and war but he was caught up in family problems with a clinically depressed wife and he relied on laughable "intelligence" from his staff that indicated the war wouldn't last more than a couple of weeks.

 

[Richard-H]

That's a helluva question. I think that some people are just more susceptible to some kind of hardcore ideology. I don't think that it's a function of intelligence, either. One of my closest friends, a very intelligent guy, is down the orange rabbit hole.

I've done a lot of reading on the subconscious. When you combine a basic (normal) bias with repetition and increasing isolation, your subconscious can be trained to believe some pretty insane things. To your point, you kind of create your own subliminal conditions.

This particular one is a weird blend of three sociological currents: Political, religious and cultural (cult). It's a lifestyle. And it's somehow grabbed, what, about 25% to 30% of the country. The rest are those who just sell their soul to politics and go along for the ride.

I don't think that most MAGA supporters suffer from isolation or repetition.

I just think that the U.S. is a very wealthy affluent country. Wealth protects people - even from themselves. People get a sort of feeling of security when they adopt ridiculous beliefs or make stupid decisions and do not suffer any negative repercussions.

When other people suffer for their ridiculous beliefs or stupid decisions, it gives them a feeling of superiority.

 

[there4eyeM]

The Perpetual Union was negotiated and agreed to. Trying to destroy it was reneging on the agreement.
Any genuine negotiation would have concerned constitutional amendments. That legal approach was eschewed by the slave-dependent and they chose an illegal path with the results history shows.

 

[Richard-H]

The issues that led to the Civil War were well-known for many years. They were discussed, negotiations attempted. All failed.

The South started the war (seceded) believing that emancipation was inevitable.

It's weird in that Lincoln did not call for emancipation when he took office. Yet, the leadership of the Confederacy made it clear that protecting slavery was the primary motive for secession.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Not only "could have" but should have. Lincoln should have done everything he could in congress and among the southern states to avoid secession and war but he was caught up in family problems with a clinically depressed wife and he relied on laughable "intelligence" from his staff that indicated the war wouldn't last more than a couple of weeks.

The incredible lack in competent military intelligence in general through the war extended it by at least a year, maybe longer.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

The issues that led to the Civil War were well-known for many years. They were discussed, negotiations attempted. All failed.

The South started the war (seceded) believing that emancipation was inevitable.

It's weird in that Lincoln did not call for emancipation when he took office. Yet, the leadership of the Confederacy made it clear that protecting slavery was the primary motive for secession.

I think the North and West would not have supported a war based on freeing the slaves at the beginning.

Preserving the Union and the spilled blood of the patriots in achieving liberty, which the South stamped on when it fired at Old Glory, was enough to for Lincoln to get a workable start to military activities.

I have no doubt that AL intended to murder slavery when he got the chance.

 

[Zincwarrior]

I know this won't be pleasant, but....

Think about the fact that Trump spits out this absolutely ridiculous, embarrassing, self-serving absurdity, and MILLIONS of Americans (like the OP) just believe it without another thought, even for a moment.

I'd proffer its only to his Southern cracker MAGA base. You know who doesn't talk about revisiting the causes of the Civil War? Everyone but them.

The rest of the electorate is going... "what?"

 

[TNHarley]

It wasnt negotiable. Lincoln tried that when he offered them legal slavery forever. And what did they do? They said fuck you.
But lincoln cared more about money than people. So we got the civil war.
So there is that.

 

[lennypartiv]

I have no doubt that AL intended to murder slavery when he got the chance.

Lincoln's plans were to deport the blacks after they were freed.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Lincoln's plans were to deport the blacks after they were freed.

He thought that for a while was feasible until he understood the finances and logistics of it.

 

[my2¢]

I believe neither war nor negotiations were necessary. It wouldn't have taken more than a few years for the Confederacy to come back crawling on its knees.