Christians attempt to silence non-religious messages at Christmas

[catzmeow]

NO GOD! NO ACCOUNTIBILITY!

This looks to work out well for me.

 

[AllieBaba]

I have no problem with faith healing.

I have no problem with ppl who go to chiropractors, either.

It's not my place to call them stupid or backwards, or to "educate" them about their faith or what they choose to do with their own bodies or the bodies of their loved ones.

That's how I'm different from an "enlightened" "educated" soul such as FT. It's not my job to go around telling people they're not as smart as I am, and they should throw away the things they believe in.

I understand how you might be somewhat reluctant to answer my question in a straightforward way. But, here's the thing.

I wouldn't argue in favor of so-called faith healing if all that I had witnessed were a "healing" at a revival by a person whom I did not know on a person whom I never saw again. But, that isn't what I witnessed.

My wife was in the hospital because of anemia. She was admitted for blood transfusions and so the doctors could try to find out where her blood was going.

Apparently, hospitals do all sorts of screenings in such a circumstance. One of the tests they performed was a CA 19-9 test. It tests for a certain protein that is produced by certain very specific cancers, chief among them being pancreatic cancer. Anything higher than 37 U/ml is considered abnormal. Her first result was 70 U/ml, a result that the doctors said could be interpreted to be non-cancerous caused by other conditions such as gallstones, cirrhosis, pancreatitis, or cholecystitis. But, they said, it was certainly cause for concern.

So, they waited a week and tested her again. That time the result was over 200 U/ml, the doctor's diagnosis being that she suffered from pancreatic cancer, and the blood test also came up positive for bone marrow cancer. They tested her two more times, a week or two apart and, although the bone marrow indication didn’t recur, the CA 19-9 test results went over 300 U/ml at its peak. By then we had sought the prayers of our pastors, the elders of the church, our life group pastors, our family members and members of the church in general.

A few days after the last test, my wife underwent an MRI to see where the tumor might be exactly, although she and I both advised her doctor that they would find no tumor.

The MRI confirmed that she was cancer free, despite the results of multiple tests to the contrary!

She continued to be tested and today, 6 months later, the tests have come back negative and the cancer doctor has decided to quit seeing her. To say the least, the doctor has been confounded as to how she could have tested the way that she did and turned out to be, in his words, cancer free.

Unlike the doctor, we have known all along how she could have done so…we call it Divine Healing!

You, and by that I mean anybody, may impune our intelligence or question my honesty in relating this story, or whatever, but I know what happened and I know that today, my wife is cancer free.

The critical requirement for Divine Healing to work is that the one who is seeking it must believe in the power and grace of God and His only son. So, it doesn't surprise me when folks like FT attack it. They have no faith, and consequently, no hope, and when faced with a similar circumstance, only have dispair.

I wasn't trying to be ambiguous. If you're asking do I believe in faith healing, yes, I believe it works for some people. I think anyone who wants to use it instead of conventional medicine should have the right to make that choice.

I've never seen a cure, but I haven't had much contact with faith healers. I know prayer works for pain relief and have seen it work on people who are skeptical as well as those who believe.

 

[YWN666]

My mother used to tell me about a man she knew that had cancer. He was told he only had about a year to live. He got it into his head that if he took a tablespoon of karocine (sp?) a day, it would cure the cancer. He did and within 6 mos, the cancer was gone.

Now either the karocine cured his cancer, or his faith in it did.

And those are the ONLY 2 options? That's called a false dichotomy.

OhhhHooo big words to confuse, debunk and otherwise thwarp their faith, ITS NOT A FALSE DICHOTOMY, its a dichotomy alright, but nevertheless not false, now it could be false in your eyes YWN666. Dichotomy is nothing more than a direct split, disection or partition, but to label the dichotomy false is a personal vendetta, no what scares the hell out of you is that dichotomy alone could mean an absolute dicision for GOD?
Cancer couldve beeen cured by karocine or cured by faith but wait... it couldve been cured by both??? theres ya 3rd option, so your false dichotomy theory has no bases here.

You insist that the argument is not a false dichotomy and then you offer a 3rd option??? Are you really THAT stupid?

What about other options? - maybe the cancer was cured by neither or maybe the cancer was not cured at all.

 

[YWN666]

The critical requirement for Divine Healing to work is that the one who is seeking it must believe in the power and grace of God and His only son. So, it doesn't surprise me when folks like FT attack it. They have no faith, and consequently, no hope, and when faced with a similar circumstance, only have dispair.

Bwaaahaaah! How convenient! Faith healing only works on those who believe??? That kind of flawed logic raises a huge red flag for us thinking people.

 

[YWN666]

I have no problem with faith healing.

I have no problem with ppl who go to chiropractors, either.

It's not my place to call them stupid or backwards, or to "educate" them about their faith or what they choose to do with their own bodies or the bodies of their loved ones.

That's how I'm different from an "enlightened" "educated" soul such as FT. It's not my job to go around telling people they're not as smart as I am, and they should throw away the things they believe in.

I understand how you might be somewhat reluctant to answer my question in a straightforward way. But, here's the thing.

I wouldn't argue in favor of so-called faith healing if all that I had witnessed were a "healing" at a revival by a person whom I did not know on a person whom I never saw again. But, that isn't what I witnessed.

My wife was in the hospital because of anemia. She was admitted for blood transfusions and so the doctors could try to find out where her blood was going.

Apparently, hospitals do all sorts of screenings in such a circumstance. One of the tests they performed was a CA 19-9 test. It tests for a certain protein that is produced by certain very specific cancers, chief among them being pancreatic cancer. Anything higher than 37 U/ml is considered abnormal. Her first result was 70 U/ml, a result that the doctors said could be interpreted to be non-cancerous caused by other conditions such as gallstones, cirrhosis, pancreatitis, or cholecystitis. But, they said, it was certainly cause for concern.

So, they waited a week and tested her again. That time the result was over 200 U/ml, the doctor's diagnosis being that she suffered from pancreatic cancer, and the blood test also came up positive for bone marrow cancer. They tested her two more times, a week or two apart and, although the bone marrow indication didn’t recur, the CA 19-9 test results went over 300 U/ml at its peak. By then we had sought the prayers of our pastors, the elders of the church, our life group pastors, our family members and members of the church in general.

A few days after the last test, my wife underwent an MRI to see where the tumor might be exactly, although she and I both advised her doctor that they would find no tumor.

The MRI confirmed that she was cancer free, despite the results of multiple tests to the contrary!

She continued to be tested and today, 6 months later, the tests have come back negative and the cancer doctor has decided to quit seeing her. To say the least, the doctor has been confounded as to how she could have tested the way that she did and turned out to be, in his words, cancer free.

Unlike the doctor, we have known all along how she could have done so…we call it Divine Healing!

You, and by that I mean anybody, may impune our intelligence or question my honesty in relating this story, or whatever, but I know what happened and I know that today, my wife is cancer free.

The critical requirement for Divine Healing to work is that the one who is seeking it must believe in the power and grace of God and His only son. So, it doesn't surprise me when folks like FT attack it. They have no faith, and consequently, no hope, and when faced with a similar circumstance, only have dispair.

I wasn't trying to be ambiguous. If you're asking do I believe in faith healing, yes, I believe it works for some people. I think anyone who wants to use it instead of conventional medicine should have the right to make that choice.

I've never seen a cure, but I haven't had much contact with faith healers. I know prayer works for pain relief and have seen it work on people who are skeptical as well as those who believe.

There is no doubt that a person believing that praying for himself will get him well is a benefit to his health but that is only a placebo effect/mind over matter. There is no supernatural element to it. If you want to see how effective prayer really is, look at the studies of intercessory prayer, where someone prays not for himself but for another person. There is NO benefit.

 

[Patriot2009]

My mother used to tell me about a man she knew that had cancer. He was told he only had about a year to live. He got it into his head that if he took a tablespoon of karocine (sp?) a day, it would cure the cancer. He did and within 6 mos, the cancer was gone.

Now either the karocine cured his cancer, or his faith in it did.

And those are the ONLY 2 options? That's called a false dichotomy.

OhhhHooo big words to confuse, debunk and otherwise thwarp their faith, ITS NOT A FALSE DICHOTOMY, its a dichotomy alright, but nevertheless not false, now it could be false in your eyes YWN666. Dichotomy is nothing more than a direct split, disection or partition, but to label the dichotomy false is a personal vendetta, no what scares the hell out of you is that dichotomy alone could mean an absolute dicision for GOD?
Cancer couldve beeen cured by karocine or cured by faith but wait... it couldve been cured by both??? theres ya 3rd option, so your false dichotomy theory has no bases here.

KNOW GOD! KNOW ACCOUNTIBILITY! NO GOD! NO ACCOUNTIBILITY!

Although I disagree with the position regarding Divine Healing being taken by YWN666, he is quite correct that Againsheila’s conclusion about what “cured” the man she described was presented as a false dichotomy. Look it up.

A false dichotomy , also known as an either or argument, a false dilemma or a straw man argument, presents an argument in terms of only two choices as the solution when there are more than the two in fact.

I don’t believe that Againsheila meant to make the argument in those terms deliberately. But, then again, maybe she did…

 

[Againsheila]

The critical requirement for Divine Healing to work is that the one who is seeking it must believe in the power and grace of God and His only son. So, it doesn't surprise me when folks like FT attack it. They have no faith, and consequently, no hope, and when faced with a similar circumstance, only have dispair.

Bwaaahaaah! How convenient! Faith healing only works on those who believe??? That kind of flawed logic raises a huge red flag for us thinking people.

Actually, that's not flawed logic. We don't yet know the full power of our brains. Why is it so hard to believe that someone's belief in being cured can cause them to be cured?

You're just so much against God, that you don't even think of other reasons for being cured. Anything that can't be defined by science scares the heck out of you, doesn't it?

 

[Patriot2009]

The critical requirement for Divine Healing to work is that the one who is seeking it must believe in the power and grace of God and His only son. So, it doesn't surprise me when folks like FT attack it. They have no faith, and consequently, no hope, and when faced with a similar circumstance, only have dispair.

Bwaaahaaah! How convenient! Faith healing only works on those who believe??? That kind of flawed logic raises a huge red flag for us thinking people.

Actually, that's not flawed logic. We don't yet know the full power of our brains. Why is it so hard to believe that someone's belief in being cured can cause them to be cured?

You're just so much against God, that you don't even think of other reasons for being cured. Anything that can't be defined by science scares the heck out of you, doesn't it?

I find it interesting that you’re so quick to criticize YWN666 for his apparent fear of anything that can’t be explained scientifically, when your explanation for the fellow’s healing is scientific as well. The only difference between your position and that of YWN666, is that you go so far as to assign a specific scientific explanation (the power of the brain to heal itself spontaneously)while he just trolls and doesn’t bother with any explanation at all.

Why are you afraid to concede that it may have been the grace of the Lord that healed him, and my wife?

 

[Father Time]

Actually, that's not flawed logic. We don't yet know the full power of our brains. Why is it so hard to believe that someone's belief in being cured can cause them to be cured?

You honestly believe that we can will ourselves back to health? Sounds like so many weird spiritual healing methods (not religious but spiritual) that utilize a weird 'energy' or 'chi' or whatever to heal yourself.

 

[YWN666]

The critical requirement for Divine Healing to work is that the one who is seeking it must believe in the power and grace of God and His only son. So, it doesn't surprise me when folks like FT attack it. They have no faith, and consequently, no hope, and when faced with a similar circumstance, only have dispair.

Bwaaahaaah! How convenient! Faith healing only works on those who believe??? That kind of flawed logic raises a huge red flag for us thinking people.

Actually, that's not flawed logic. We don't yet know the full power of our brains. Why is it so hard to believe that someone's belief in being cured can cause them to be cured?

You're just so much against God, that you don't even think of other reasons for being cured. Anything that can't be defined by science scares the heck out of you, doesn't it?

Would I be laughing if I was scared? Why must you folks insist that anyone who disagrees with your beliefs are scared of them?
BTW, I did agree that praying for oneself does have a positive health benefit but not for the reasons you might believe. I don't believe in faith healers for a second, however.

 

[YWN666]

Actually, that's not flawed logic. We don't yet know the full power of our brains. Why is it so hard to believe that someone's belief in being cured can cause them to be cured?

You honestly believe that we can will ourselves back to health? Sounds like so many weird spiritual healing methods (not religious but spiritual) that utilize a weird 'energy' or 'chi' or whatever to heal yourself.

It has been proven that the belief in prayer can help in healing oneself. Help is the key word here. Saying a prayer won't grow back a severed limb or rid oneself completely of cancer. It might help one who is fighting a disease with medication to be cured a little faster and it is not for supernatural reasons. It is the power of the brain.

 

[YWN666]

Bwaaahaaah! How convenient! Faith healing only works on those who believe??? That kind of flawed logic raises a huge red flag for us thinking people.

Actually, that's not flawed logic. We don't yet know the full power of our brains. Why is it so hard to believe that someone's belief in being cured can cause them to be cured?

You're just so much against God, that you don't even think of other reasons for being cured. Anything that can't be defined by science scares the heck out of you, doesn't it?

I find it interesting that you’re so quick to criticize YWN666 for his apparent fear of anything that can’t be explained scientifically, when your explanation for the fellow’s healing is scientific as well. The only difference between your position and that of YWN666, is that you go so far as to assign a specific scientific explanation (the power of the brain to heal itself spontaneously)while he just trolls and doesn’t bother with any explanation at all.

Why are you afraid to concede that it may have been the grace of the Lord that healed him, and my wife?

I don't know enough of the details in your scenario to be able to give an answer - usually when I hear stories like yours, there are critical details left out to add to the "oooh--aaaahhh" emotional impact of the story. Sometimes doctors make errors! Unlike some believers, I can say "I don't know yet" and not attribute all unknowns to some magic deity.

 

[Father Time]

Actually, that's not flawed logic. We don't yet know the full power of our brains. Why is it so hard to believe that someone's belief in being cured can cause them to be cured?

You honestly believe that we can will ourselves back to health? Sounds like so many weird spiritual healing methods (not religious but spiritual) that utilize a weird 'energy' or 'chi' or whatever to heal yourself.

It has been proven that the belief in prayer can help in healing oneself. Help is the key word here. Saying a prayer won't grow back a severed limb or rid oneself completely of cancer. It might help one who is fighting a disease with medication to be cured a little faster and it is not for supernatural reasons. It is the power of the brain.

Yes I know of the placebo effect but you cannot rid yourself of something serious through will which is what he was suggesting.

 

[YWN666]

You honestly believe that we can will ourselves back to health? Sounds like so many weird spiritual healing methods (not religious but spiritual) that utilize a weird 'energy' or 'chi' or whatever to heal yourself.

It has been proven that the belief in prayer can help in healing oneself. Help is the key word here. Saying a prayer won't grow back a severed limb or rid oneself completely of cancer. It might help one who is fighting a disease with medication to be cured a little faster and it is not for supernatural reasons. It is the power of the brain.

Yes I know of the placebo effect but you cannot rid yourself of something serious through will which is what he was suggesting.

I agree with that.

 

[Patriot2009]

Actually, that's not flawed logic. We don't yet know the full power of our brains. Why is it so hard to believe that someone's belief in being cured can cause them to be cured?

You're just so much against God, that you don't even think of other reasons for being cured. Anything that can't be defined by science scares the heck out of you, doesn't it?

I find it interesting that you’re so quick to criticize YWN666 for his apparent fear of anything that can’t be explained scientifically, when your explanation for the fellow’s healing is scientific as well. The only difference between your position and that of YWN666, is that you go so far as to assign a specific scientific explanation (the power of the brain to heal itself spontaneously)while he just trolls and doesn’t bother with any explanation at all.

Why are you afraid to concede that it may have been the grace of the Lord that healed him, and my wife?

I don't know enough of the details in your scenario to be able to give an answer - usually when I hear stories like yours, there are critical details left out to add to the "oooh--aaaahhh" emotional impact of the story. Sometimes doctors make errors! Unlike some believers, I can say "I don't know yet" and not attribute all unknowns to some magic deity.

My question was addressed to Againsheila.

But, just for the record, no "critical" details were left out. The pertinent facts are that she was diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer following 4 successive tests, each one to two weeks apart, all of which indicated Pancreatic Cancer in ever increasing levels. After considerable prayer, she was tested and the results showed that she was cancer free, with no intervening medical treatment such as chemotherapy.

I suspect that your claim that you need more information is just another dodge designed to escape from answering the hard question of how she was healed. And, I suspect that I could post her entire medical record here and you’d still be claiming that you need more information in order to answer the question and would be still resting your position on the incredible claim that all 4 tests had to be wrong or flawed.

 

[YWN666]

I find it interesting that you’re so quick to criticize YWN666 for his apparent fear of anything that can’t be explained scientifically, when your explanation for the fellow’s healing is scientific as well. The only difference between your position and that of YWN666, is that you go so far as to assign a specific scientific explanation (the power of the brain to heal itself spontaneously)while he just trolls and doesn’t bother with any explanation at all.

Why are you afraid to concede that it may have been the grace of the Lord that healed him, and my wife?

I don't know enough of the details in your scenario to be able to give an answer - usually when I hear stories like yours, there are critical details left out to add to the "oooh--aaaahhh" emotional impact of the story. Sometimes doctors make errors! Unlike some believers, I can say "I don't know yet" and not attribute all unknowns to some magic deity.

My question was addressed to Againsheila.

But, just for the record, no "critical" details were left out. The pertinent facts are that she was diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer following 4 successive tests, each one to two weeks apart, all of which indicated Pancreatic Cancer in ever increasing levels. After considerable prayer, she was tested and the results showed that she was cancer free, with no intervening medical treatment such as chemotherapy.

I suspect that your claim that you need more information is just another dodge designed to escape from answering the hard question of how she was healed. And, I suspect that I could post her entire medical record here and you’d still be claiming that you need more information in order to answer the question and would be still resting your position on the incredible claim that all 4 tests had to be wrong or flawed.

No dodge here - I just recognize faulty logic when I see it. I'd like to see you provide evidence that the prayer caused the alleged cancer to disappear (without resorting to the post hoc fallacy).

 

[Againsheila]

You honestly believe that we can will ourselves back to health? Sounds like so many weird spiritual healing methods (not religious but spiritual) that utilize a weird 'energy' or 'chi' or whatever to heal yourself.

It has been proven that the belief in prayer can help in healing oneself. Help is the key word here. Saying a prayer won't grow back a severed limb or rid oneself completely of cancer. It might help one who is fighting a disease with medication to be cured a little faster and it is not for supernatural reasons. It is the power of the brain.

Yes I know of the placebo effect but you cannot rid yourself of something serious through will which is what he was suggesting.

How do you know? Read up on Dirk Benedick. He played Starbuck in the original Battlestar Galatica. He had cancer, with a bad prognoses. He changed his diet and his lifestyle and the cancer went away. How is that any different than the guy with the kerosene? Other than the fact that he was eating healthy foods?

If you research it, I'm sure you'll find that positive thinking has great benefits.

 

[Patriot2009]

I don't know enough of the details in your scenario to be able to give an answer - usually when I hear stories like yours, there are critical details left out to add to the "oooh--aaaahhh" emotional impact of the story. Sometimes doctors make errors! Unlike some believers, I can say "I don't know yet" and not attribute all unknowns to some magic deity.

My question was addressed to Againsheila.

But, just for the record, no "critical" details were left out. The pertinent facts are that she was diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer following 4 successive tests, each one to two weeks apart, all of which indicated Pancreatic Cancer in ever increasing levels. After considerable prayer, she was tested and the results showed that she was cancer free, with no intervening medical treatment such as chemotherapy.

I suspect that your claim that you need more information is just another dodge designed to escape from answering the hard question of how she was healed. And, I suspect that I could post her entire medical record here and you’d still be claiming that you need more information in order to answer the question and would be still resting your position on the incredible claim that all 4 tests had to be wrong or flawed.

No dodge here - I just recognize faulty logic when I see it. I'd like to see you provide evidence that the prayer caused the alleged cancer to disappear (without resorting to the post hoc fallacy).

My logic isn’t faulty because it isn’t a resort to Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc, or as you described it, the post hoc fallacy. The post hoc fallacy, which states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one.", would require that there be other plausible explanations for my wife’s healing. In other words, it’s a cousin of the false dichotomy we’ve already discussed.

You can claim that it’s a post hoc fallacy. But, without presenting any other plausible explanation, your words are rendered to nothing more than hot air. Your problem is that the notion that 4 scientific tests, each confirming the findings of those before, were all flawed or incorrect is so far beyond the realm of likelihood that it simply isn’t plausible. Instead, its incredible.

And, the alternative, that the later tests showing that she is cancer free were wrong would present you with a greater problem yet. She took the test every month for 6 months, with every result showing no cancer, along with a negative MRI!

So, I invite you to show us something else.

BTW, thanks for providing me this wonderful opportunity to present my testimony for everyone who is reading this who aren't infected with your brand of cynicism...

 

[N4mddissent]

My question was addressed to Againsheila.

But, just for the record, no "critical" details were left out. The pertinent facts are that she was diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer following 4 successive tests, each one to two weeks apart, all of which indicated Pancreatic Cancer in ever increasing levels. After considerable prayer, she was tested and the results showed that she was cancer free, with no intervening medical treatment such as chemotherapy.

I suspect that your claim that you need more information is just another dodge designed to escape from answering the hard question of how she was healed. And, I suspect that I could post her entire medical record here and you’d still be claiming that you need more information in order to answer the question and would be still resting your position on the incredible claim that all 4 tests had to be wrong or flawed.

No dodge here - I just recognize faulty logic when I see it. I'd like to see you provide evidence that the prayer caused the alleged cancer to disappear (without resorting to the post hoc fallacy).

My logic isn’t faulty because it isn’t a resort to Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc, or as you described it, the post hoc fallacy. The post hoc fallacy, which states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one.", would require that there be other plausible explanations for my wife’s healing. In other words, it’s a cousin of the false dichotomy we’ve already discussed.

You can claim that it’s a post hoc fallacy. But, without presenting any other plausible explanation, your words are rendered to nothing more than hot air. Your problem is that the notion that 4 scientific tests, each confirming the findings of those before, were all flawed or incorrect is so far beyond the realm of likelihood that it simply isn’t plausible. Instead, its incredible.

And, the alternative, that the later tests showing that she is cancer free were wrong would present you with a greater problem yet. She took the test every month for 6 months, with every result showing no cancer, along with a negative MRI!

So, I invite you to show us something else.

BTW, thanks for providing me this wonderful opportunity to present my testimony for everyone who is reading this who aren't infected with your brand of cynicism...

Spontaneous regression is documented. And if I'm not mistaken, it occurs at about the same rate among populations regardless of religious belief.

 

[YWN666]

My question was addressed to Againsheila.

But, just for the record, no "critical" details were left out. The pertinent facts are that she was diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer following 4 successive tests, each one to two weeks apart, all of which indicated Pancreatic Cancer in ever increasing levels. After considerable prayer, she was tested and the results showed that she was cancer free, with no intervening medical treatment such as chemotherapy.

I suspect that your claim that you need more information is just another dodge designed to escape from answering the hard question of how she was healed. And, I suspect that I could post her entire medical record here and you’d still be claiming that you need more information in order to answer the question and would be still resting your position on the incredible claim that all 4 tests had to be wrong or flawed.

No dodge here - I just recognize faulty logic when I see it. I'd like to see you provide evidence that the prayer caused the alleged cancer to disappear (without resorting to the post hoc fallacy).

My logic isn’t faulty because it isn’t a resort to Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc, or as you described it, the post hoc fallacy. The post hoc fallacy, which states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one.", would require that there be other plausible explanations for my wife’s healing. In other words, it’s a cousin of the false dichotomy we’ve already discussed.

You can claim that it’s a post hoc fallacy. But, without presenting any other plausible explanation, your words are rendered to nothing more than hot air. Your problem is that the notion that 4 scientific tests, each confirming the findings of those before, were all flawed or incorrect is so far beyond the realm of likelihood that it simply isn’t plausible. Instead, its incredible.

And, the alternative, that the later tests showing that she is cancer free were wrong would present you with a greater problem yet. She took the test every month for 6 months, with every result showing no cancer, along with a negative MRI!

So, I invite you to show us something else.

BTW, thanks for providing me this wonderful opportunity to present my testimony for everyone who is reading this who aren't infected with your brand of cynicism...

You can't actually link the prayer with the alleged disappearance of the cancer. All you can do is say "There is no other explanation so it must be the prayer"