Christians attempt to silence non-religious messages at Christmas

[YWN666]

The governor should have said they could have their sign as long as they skipped that last sentence which was hate speech. I don't think it's a coincidence that a few weeks later, a catholic church near there was attacked by atheists who broke stained glass windows and vandalized the place.

Is there a source for this story? Were they confirmed to be atheists or was that just an assumption?

 

[Father Time]

Atheists take aim at Christmas - CNN.com

What really interests me about this is the way that Christians, who've won the war to have a nativity placed on the state capitol's grounds, are fighting to SILENCE atheist messages.

Interesting. "Free speech, but only for me."

Atheism is a lie... it's the personfication of evil... so it needs to be silenced. Athiests are like homosexuals... they're entitled to their lives, but they're not entitled to infect the culture with their deviancy.

Now see, THAT would be hate speech, not a simple nativity scene. The hate speech in that case was put up by the atheists who called everyone that believed in religion hateful and stupid.

The governor should have said they could have their sign as long as they skipped that last sentence which was hate speech. I don't think it's a coincidence that a few weeks later, a catholic church near there was attacked by atheists who broke stained glass windows and vandalized the place.

They said religion is stupid not it's followers. There is a difference.

 

[Againsheila]

Atheism is a lie... it's the personfication of evil... so it needs to be silenced. Athiests are like homosexuals... they're entitled to their lives, but they're not entitled to infect the culture with their deviancy.

Now see, THAT would be hate speech, not a simple nativity scene. The hate speech in that case was put up by the atheists who called everyone that believed in religion hateful and stupid.

The governor should have said they could have their sign as long as they skipped that last sentence which was hate speech. I don't think it's a coincidence that a few weeks later, a catholic church near there was attacked by atheists who broke stained glass windows and vandalized the place.

They said religion is stupid not it's followers. There is a difference.

They basically said that anyone that believes in religion is hateful and stupid. I forgot the exact words but it was aimed at all religious people everywhere.

 

[Father Time]

"Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

I don't see an attack on followers in that sentence.

 

[del]

"Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

I don't see an attack on followers in that sentence.

you're not very perceptive, are you?

 

[AllieBaba]

No kidding.

 

[Father Time]

Let's reword the statement a bit.

Faith Healing is nothing but placebo and snake oil that harms the body and tricks the mind.

Does that statement say anything about people who use faith healing?

 

[Patriot2009]

Let's reword the statement a bit.

Faith Healing is nothing but placebo and snake oil that harms the body and tricks the mind.

Does that statement say anything about people who use faith healing?

If it were true, it would. But, it's not true.

So, as it stands, it says something about the one who stated it.

 

[AllieBaba]

Let's reword the statement a bit.

Faith Healing is nothing but placebo and snake oil that harms the body and tricks the mind.

Does that statement say anything about people who use faith healing?

Yes. It says they allow themselves to be tricked and they use snake oil and harm the body.

 

[Patriot2009]

Let's reword the statement a bit.

Faith Healing is nothing but placebo and snake oil that harms the body and tricks the mind.

Does that statement say anything about people who use faith healing?

Yes. It says they allow themselves to be tricked and they use snake oil and harm the body.

Would you accept faith healing, a term that's misleading, if you saw a person who tested positive for cancer repeatedly, each time the test revealing significantly higher levels of a marker protein than the last and, after prayer tested negative on the same tests, with absolutely no medical treatment?

I did...because I saw it first hand!

 

[AllieBaba]

I have no problem with faith healing.

I have no problem with ppl who go to chiropractors, either.

It's not my place to call them stupid or backwards, or to "educate" them about their faith or what they choose to do with their own bodies or the bodies of their loved ones.

That's how I'm different from an "enlightened" "educated" soul such as FT. It's not my job to go around telling people they're not as smart as I am, and they should throw away the things they believe in.

 

[Patriot2009]

I have no problem with faith healing.

I have no problem with ppl who go to chiropractors, either.

It's not my place to call them stupid or backwards, or to "educate" them about their faith or what they choose to do with their own bodies or the bodies of their loved ones.

That's how I'm different from an "enlightened" "educated" soul such as FT. It's not my job to go around telling people they're not as smart as I am, and they should throw away the things they believe in.

I understand how you might be somewhat reluctant to answer my question in a straightforward way. But, here's the thing.

I wouldn't argue in favor of so-called faith healing if all that I had witnessed were a "healing" at a revival by a person whom I did not know on a person whom I never saw again. But, that isn't what I witnessed.

My wife was in the hospital because of anemia. She was admitted for blood transfusions and so the doctors could try to find out where her blood was going.

Apparently, hospitals do all sorts of screenings in such a circumstance. One of the tests they performed was a CA 19-9 test. It tests for a certain protein that is produced by certain very specific cancers, chief among them being pancreatic cancer. Anything higher than 37 U/ml is considered abnormal. Her first result was 70 U/ml, a result that the doctors said could be interpreted to be non-cancerous caused by other conditions such as gallstones, cirrhosis, pancreatitis, or cholecystitis. But, they said, it was certainly cause for concern.

So, they waited a week and tested her again. That time the result was over 200 U/ml, the doctor's diagnosis being that she suffered from pancreatic cancer, and the blood test also came up positive for bone marrow cancer. They tested her two more times, a week or two apart and, although the bone marrow indication didn’t recur, the CA 19-9 test results went over 300 U/ml at its peak. By then we had sought the prayers of our pastors, the elders of the church, our life group pastors, our family members and members of the church in general.

A few days after the last test, my wife underwent an MRI to see where the tumor might be exactly, although she and I both advised her doctor that they would find no tumor.

The MRI confirmed that she was cancer free, despite the results of multiple tests to the contrary!

She continued to be tested and today, 6 months later, the tests have come back negative and the cancer doctor has decided to quit seeing her. To say the least, the doctor has been confounded as to how she could have tested the way that she did and turned out to be, in his words, cancer free.

Unlike the doctor, we have known all along how she could have done so…we call it Divine Healing!

You, and by that I mean anybody, may impune our intelligence or question my honesty in relating this story, or whatever, but I know what happened and I know that today, my wife is cancer free.

The critical requirement for Divine Healing to work is that the one who is seeking it must believe in the power and grace of God and His only son. So, it doesn't surprise me when folks like FT attack it. They have no faith, and consequently, no hope, and when faced with a similar circumstance, only have dispair.

 

[Againsheila]

I have no problem with faith healing.

I have no problem with ppl who go to chiropractors, either.

It's not my place to call them stupid or backwards, or to "educate" them about their faith or what they choose to do with their own bodies or the bodies of their loved ones.

That's how I'm different from an "enlightened" "educated" soul such as FT. It's not my job to go around telling people they're not as smart as I am, and they should throw away the things they believe in.

I understand how you might be somewhat reluctant to answer my question in a straightforward way. But, here's the thing.

I wouldn't argue in favor of so-called faith healing if all that I had witnessed were a "healing" at a revival by a person whom I did not know on a person whom I never saw again. But, that isn't what I witnessed.

My wife was in the hospital because of anemia. She was admitted for blood transfusions and so the doctors could try to find out where her blood was going.

Apparently, hospitals do all sorts of screenings in such a circumstance. One of the tests they performed was a CA 19-9 test. It tests for a certain protein that is produced by certain very specific cancers, chief among them being pancreatic cancer. Anything higher than 37 U/ml is considered abnormal. Her first result was 70 U/ml, a result that the doctors said could be interpreted to be non-cancerous caused by other conditions such as gallstones, cirrhosis, pancreatitis, or cholecystitis. But, they said, it was certainly cause for concern.

So, they waited a week and tested her again. That time the result was over 200 U/ml, the doctor's diagnosis being that she suffered from pancreatic cancer, and the blood test also came up positive for bone marrow cancer. They tested her two more times, a week or two apart and, although the bone marrow indication didn’t recur, the CA 19-9 test results went over 300 U/ml at its peak. By then we had sought the prayers of our pastors, the elders of the church, our life group pastors, our family members and members of the church in general.

A few days after the last test, my wife underwent an MRI to see where the tumor might be exactly, although she and I both advised her doctor that they would find no tumor.

The MRI confirmed that she was cancer free, despite the results of multiple tests to the contrary!

She continued to be tested and today, 6 months later, the tests have come back negative and the cancer doctor has decided to quit seeing her. To say the least, the doctor has been confounded as to how she could have tested the way that she did and turned out to be, in his words, cancer free.

Unlike the doctor, we have known all along how she could have done so…we call it Divine Healing!

You, and by that I mean anybody, may impune our intelligence or question my honesty in relating this story, or whatever, but I know what happened and I know that today, my wife is cancer free.

The critical requirement for Divine Healing to work is that the one who is seeking it must believe in the power and grace of God and His only son. So, it doesn't surprise me when folks like FT attack it. They have no faith, and consequently, no hope, and when faced with a similar circumstance, only have dispair.

My mother used to tell me about a man she knew that had cancer. He was told he only had about a year to live. He got it into his head that if he took a tablespoon of karocine (sp?) a day, it would cure the cancer. He did and within 6 mos, the cancer was gone.

Now either the karocine cured his cancer, or his faith in it did.

 

[Father Time]

"Yes. It says they allow themselves to be tricked and they use snake oil and harm the body."

Not really it could be read as 'faith healing is a scam' and nothing more.

And that was just an example folks I have no interest in debating the usefulness of faith healing or trying to persuade you to think it's bunk.

Although if you want I could point out all the times it didn't work, (after all a sample size of one hardly constitutes enough evidence) and whatnot.

I could also talk about the premise that 'you need to believe in the treatment to work' being the official explanation for every weird spiritual healing method on the planet (whether it come from religious folks or hippies).

I digress (and if you want you can replace faith healing with a sentence about psychics being frauds). My point was that calling something a scam or false story doesn't really say all who believe in it are stupid.

I can easily see why you would be offended at the original 'religion hardens hearts' message if that's any consolation, I just don't think the group that put that up meant to be insulting to those with faith.

 

[Patriot2009]

I have no problem with faith healing.

I have no problem with ppl who go to chiropractors, either.

It's not my place to call them stupid or backwards, or to "educate" them about their faith or what they choose to do with their own bodies or the bodies of their loved ones.

That's how I'm different from an "enlightened" "educated" soul such as FT. It's not my job to go around telling people they're not as smart as I am, and they should throw away the things they believe in.

I understand how you might be somewhat reluctant to answer my question in a straightforward way. But, here's the thing.

I wouldn't argue in favor of so-called faith healing if all that I had witnessed were a "healing" at a revival by a person whom I did not know on a person whom I never saw again. But, that isn't what I witnessed.

My wife was in the hospital because of anemia. She was admitted for blood transfusions and so the doctors could try to find out where her blood was going.

Apparently, hospitals do all sorts of screenings in such a circumstance. One of the tests they performed was a CA 19-9 test. It tests for a certain protein that is produced by certain very specific cancers, chief among them being pancreatic cancer. Anything higher than 37 U/ml is considered abnormal. Her first result was 70 U/ml, a result that the doctors said could be interpreted to be non-cancerous caused by other conditions such as gallstones, cirrhosis, pancreatitis, or cholecystitis. But, they said, it was certainly cause for concern.

So, they waited a week and tested her again. That time the result was over 200 U/ml, the doctor's diagnosis being that she suffered from pancreatic cancer, and the blood test also came up positive for bone marrow cancer. They tested her two more times, a week or two apart and, although the bone marrow indication didn’t recur, the CA 19-9 test results went over 300 U/ml at its peak. By then we had sought the prayers of our pastors, the elders of the church, our life group pastors, our family members and members of the church in general.

A few days after the last test, my wife underwent an MRI to see where the tumor might be exactly, although she and I both advised her doctor that they would find no tumor.

The MRI confirmed that she was cancer free, despite the results of multiple tests to the contrary!

She continued to be tested and today, 6 months later, the tests have come back negative and the cancer doctor has decided to quit seeing her. To say the least, the doctor has been confounded as to how she could have tested the way that she did and turned out to be, in his words, cancer free.

Unlike the doctor, we have known all along how she could have done so…we call it Divine Healing!

You, and by that I mean anybody, may impune our intelligence or question my honesty in relating this story, or whatever, but I know what happened and I know that today, my wife is cancer free.

The critical requirement for Divine Healing to work is that the one who is seeking it must believe in the power and grace of God and His only son. So, it doesn't surprise me when folks like FT attack it. They have no faith, and consequently, no hope, and when faced with a similar circumstance, only have dispair.

My mother used to tell me about a man she knew that had cancer. He was told he only had about a year to live. He got it into his head that if he took a tablespoon of karocine (sp?) a day, it would cure the cancer. He did and within 6 mos, the cancer was gone.

Now either the karocine cured his cancer, or his faith in it did.

Or, the test was wrong, or the cancer was never confirmed by medical testing or your mother was telling you a tall tale, or...

 

[Patriot2009]

"Yes. It says they allow themselves to be tricked and they use snake oil and harm the body."

Not really it could be read as 'faith healing is a scam' and nothing more.

And that was just an example folks I have no interest in debating the usefulness of faith healing or trying to persuade you to think it's bunk.

Although if you want I could point out all the times it didn't work, (after all a sample size of one hardly constitutes enough evidence) and whatnot.

I could also talk about the premise that 'you need to believe in the treatment to work' being the official explanation for every weird spiritual healing method on the planet (whether it come from religious folks or hippies).

I digress (and if you want you can replace faith healing with a sentence about psychics being frauds). My point was that calling something a scam or false story doesn't really say all who believe in it are stupid.

I can easily see why you would be offended at the original 'religion hardens hearts' message if that's any consolation, I just don't think the group that put that up meant to be insulting to those with faith.

It’s funny that you would try to reduce my personal testimony to the status of a poll of one, when it is something quite different. But, that wouldn’t suit your purpose. Your protest that you have no interest in debating the usefulness of “faith healing” or persuading anybody that its bunk simply doesn’t wash any more than I can persuade you that I never expected you, or any of the other atheists, agnostics, etc., here to believe my testimony or to concede that it was evidence of anything.

You make that claim and then set out to present your reasons that it is just that. For example, your premise that one can replace the term “faith healing” with a sentence claiming that psychics are frauds. I have to disagree because, so far as I am aware, there is no concrete evidence to the contrary. While there are plenty of examples of Divine Healing that are supported by real evidence, my wife being one of those.

One of the other posters here has a footer for her posts that includes a Bill Maher quote about the fact that religious people really don't know much about religion. He’s quite correct, unfortunately. And, by their ignorance, they do harm to the Body of Christ because they open the door to criticism of religion, particularly Christianity in its various forms.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that those who have no relationship with God know even less about religion and try to justify their ignorance by arguing about something about which they know practically nothing. I have often read about such folks who set out to educate themselves about that which they were opposing in order to make a better argument against it, only to become the strongest proponents of it instead. I have to wonder how many of the posters here know the first whit about the Bible and what it really says. I would venture to say that there is likely not more than one that has read the Bible from front to back at least once.

But, laughably, they are setting themselves up as authorities on what the Bible says and how credible it all is or isn’t!

 

[YWN666]

Let's reword the statement a bit.

Faith Healing is nothing but placebo and snake oil that harms the body and tricks the mind.

Does that statement say anything about people who use faith healing?

Yes. It says they allow themselves to be tricked and they use snake oil and harm the body.

Would you accept faith healing, a term that's misleading, if you saw a person who tested positive for cancer repeatedly, each time the test revealing significantly higher levels of a marker protein than the last and, after prayer tested negative on the same tests, with absolutely no medical treatment?

I did...because I saw it first hand!

And of course there could be NO other natural explanation for such a thing (assuming what you're telling us is accurate).

 

[YWN666]

I have no problem with faith healing.

I have no problem with ppl who go to chiropractors, either.

It's not my place to call them stupid or backwards, or to "educate" them about their faith or what they choose to do with their own bodies or the bodies of their loved ones.

That's how I'm different from an "enlightened" "educated" soul such as FT. It's not my job to go around telling people they're not as smart as I am, and they should throw away the things they believe in.

I understand how you might be somewhat reluctant to answer my question in a straightforward way. But, here's the thing.

I wouldn't argue in favor of so-called faith healing if all that I had witnessed were a "healing" at a revival by a person whom I did not know on a person whom I never saw again. But, that isn't what I witnessed.

My wife was in the hospital because of anemia. She was admitted for blood transfusions and so the doctors could try to find out where her blood was going.

Apparently, hospitals do all sorts of screenings in such a circumstance. One of the tests they performed was a CA 19-9 test. It tests for a certain protein that is produced by certain very specific cancers, chief among them being pancreatic cancer. Anything higher than 37 U/ml is considered abnormal. Her first result was 70 U/ml, a result that the doctors said could be interpreted to be non-cancerous caused by other conditions such as gallstones, cirrhosis, pancreatitis, or cholecystitis. But, they said, it was certainly cause for concern.

So, they waited a week and tested her again. That time the result was over 200 U/ml, the doctor's diagnosis being that she suffered from pancreatic cancer, and the blood test also came up positive for bone marrow cancer. They tested her two more times, a week or two apart and, although the bone marrow indication didn’t recur, the CA 19-9 test results went over 300 U/ml at its peak. By then we had sought the prayers of our pastors, the elders of the church, our life group pastors, our family members and members of the church in general.

A few days after the last test, my wife underwent an MRI to see where the tumor might be exactly, although she and I both advised her doctor that they would find no tumor.

The MRI confirmed that she was cancer free, despite the results of multiple tests to the contrary!

She continued to be tested and today, 6 months later, the tests have come back negative and the cancer doctor has decided to quit seeing her. To say the least, the doctor has been confounded as to how she could have tested the way that she did and turned out to be, in his words, cancer free.

Unlike the doctor, we have known all along how she could have done so…we call it Divine Healing!

You, and by that I mean anybody, may impune our intelligence or question my honesty in relating this story, or whatever, but I know what happened and I know that today, my wife is cancer free.

The critical requirement for Divine Healing to work is that the one who is seeking it must believe in the power and grace of God and His only son. So, it doesn't surprise me when folks like FT attack it. They have no faith, and consequently, no hope, and when faced with a similar circumstance, only have dispair.

My mother used to tell me about a man she knew that had cancer. He was told he only had about a year to live. He got it into his head that if he took a tablespoon of karocine (sp?) a day, it would cure the cancer. He did and within 6 mos, the cancer was gone.

Now either the karocine cured his cancer, or his faith in it did.

And those are the ONLY 2 options? That's called a false dichotomy.

 

[Father Time]

It’s funny that you would try to reduce my personal testimony to the status of a poll of one, when it is something quite different. But, that wouldn’t suit your purpose. Your protest that you have no interest in debating the usefulness of “faith healing” or persuading anybody that its bunk simply doesn’t wash any more than I can persuade you that I never expected you, or any of the other atheists, agnostics, etc., here to believe my testimony or to concede that it was evidence of anything.

Sigh, ok fine. It's anecdotal evidence which for such an extraordinary claim isn't good enough but you knew that all ready. Once again I have no interest in debating this, faith healing was just an example.

You make that claim and then set out to present your reasons that it is just that. For example, your premise that one can replace the term “faith healing” with a sentence claiming that psychics are frauds. I have to disagree because, so far as I am aware, there is no concrete evidence to the contrary. While there are plenty of examples of Divine Healing that are supported by real evidence, my wife being one of those.

I never set to bash faith healing my point was that saying something is a scam does not automatically speak ill of those who believe it. Apparently I hit a nerve when I brought up faith healing so sorry.

 

[WhiteLion]

I understand how you might be somewhat reluctant to answer my question in a straightforward way. But, here's the thing.

I wouldn't argue in favor of so-called faith healing if all that I had witnessed were a "healing" at a revival by a person whom I did not know on a person whom I never saw again. But, that isn't what I witnessed.

My wife was in the hospital because of anemia. She was admitted for blood transfusions and so the doctors could try to find out where her blood was going.

Apparently, hospitals do all sorts of screenings in such a circumstance. One of the tests they performed was a CA 19-9 test. It tests for a certain protein that is produced by certain very specific cancers, chief among them being pancreatic cancer. Anything higher than 37 U/ml is considered abnormal. Her first result was 70 U/ml, a result that the doctors said could be interpreted to be non-cancerous caused by other conditions such as gallstones, cirrhosis, pancreatitis, or cholecystitis. But, they said, it was certainly cause for concern.

So, they waited a week and tested her again. That time the result was over 200 U/ml, the doctor's diagnosis being that she suffered from pancreatic cancer, and the blood test also came up positive for bone marrow cancer. They tested her two more times, a week or two apart and, although the bone marrow indication didn’t recur, the CA 19-9 test results went over 300 U/ml at its peak. By then we had sought the prayers of our pastors, the elders of the church, our life group pastors, our family members and members of the church in general.

A few days after the last test, my wife underwent an MRI to see where the tumor might be exactly, although she and I both advised her doctor that they would find no tumor.

The MRI confirmed that she was cancer free, despite the results of multiple tests to the contrary!

She continued to be tested and today, 6 months later, the tests have come back negative and the cancer doctor has decided to quit seeing her. To say the least, the doctor has been confounded as to how she could have tested the way that she did and turned out to be, in his words, cancer free.

Unlike the doctor, we have known all along how she could have done so…we call it Divine Healing!

You, and by that I mean anybody, may impune our intelligence or question my honesty in relating this story, or whatever, but I know what happened and I know that today, my wife is cancer free.

The critical requirement for Divine Healing to work is that the one who is seeking it must believe in the power and grace of God and His only son. So, it doesn't surprise me when folks like FT attack it. They have no faith, and consequently, no hope, and when faced with a similar circumstance, only have dispair.

My mother used to tell me about a man she knew that had cancer. He was told he only had about a year to live. He got it into his head that if he took a tablespoon of karocine (sp?) a day, it would cure the cancer. He did and within 6 mos, the cancer was gone.

Now either the karocine cured his cancer, or his faith in it did.

And those are the ONLY 2 options? That's called a false dichotomy.

OhhhHooo big words to confuse, debunk and otherwise thwarp their faith, ITS NOT A FALSE DICHOTOMY, its a dichotomy alright, but nevertheless not false, now it could be false in your eyes YWN666. Dichotomy is nothing more than a direct split, disection or partition, but to label the dichotomy false is a personal vendetta, no what scares the hell out of you is that dichotomy alone could mean an absolute dicision for GOD?
Cancer couldve beeen cured by karocine or cured by faith but wait... it couldve been cured by both??? theres ya 3rd option, so your false dichotomy theory has no bases here.

KNOW GOD! KNOW ACCOUNTIBILITY! NO GOD! NO ACCOUNTIBILITY!