Zone1 Christianity and our founding fathers

[NotfooledbyW]

You better check Catholic slave owners and traders of indigenous peoples in South Carolina. By the 1680s, Charleston was a major shipping port for indigenous slaves sent to the West Indies.

I’m not claiming Catholic innocence in the business of slavery prior to 1776. I’m saying Catholicism had no meaningful contribution to the founding of America as far as being permanent settlers of all rank and profession and the big named intellectuals who directly made our Constitution happen.

Catholics are out of the story prior to 1776 as far as westward expansion in the original colonies and what was the frontier territory before 1800 when land grabbing was the shiny object for the working class of the day.

That’s because the English Early Settlers were family units moving in to stay. The French and Spanish if they had families for the most part they left them home.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

America's Christian Heritage 240313 {post•218} ding Mar’24 Sachyz: “Thomas Jefferson affirmed the core of classical philosophical theology.”dvng 240313 Sachyz00218

Let’s do simple classical philosophical theology

Jefferson was not Catholic. Jefferson was not Protestant. There is a distinction between God the Creator and God the Redeemer. Jefferson rejected God the Redeemer during his lifetime. Jefferson’s decision to participate in a rebellion against the political system of old European Redeemer religious order was based upon his personal rejection of the tyranny, corruption and bloodshed that every connection between redeemer God and HIS state had produced for 1500 years after the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

Jefferson is not in any way a part of our American Christian Heritage.

https://lawliberty.org/podcast/the-founders-intellectual-world/ jstndyr

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

I’m not claiming Catholic innocence in the business of slavery prior to 1776. I’m saying Catholicism had no meaningful contribution to the founding of America as far as being permanent settlers of all rank and profession and the big named intellectuals who directly made our Constitution happen.

Catholics are out of the story prior to 1776 as far as westward expansion in the original colonies and what was the frontier territory before 1800 when land grabbing was the shiny object for the working class of the day.

That’s because the English Early Settlers were family units moving in to stay. The French and Spanish if they had families for the most part they left them home.

Disagree. Charles, Lord Baltimore, and Catholic settlers in the Chesapeake say differently. Spanish and French brought their families to San Augustine FL and New Orleans.

 

[ding]

Jefferson is not in any way a part of our American Christian Heritage.

Jefferson believed - the same as Christians believed - that the existence of the God of Nature whose attributes included being a providential, moralistic creator - whose existence and causal relation to the world - is essential to the foundation of natural-rights. Which is why he helped create - along with many of his Christian countrymen - a system which allowed everyone to practice their faith as they saw fit. I can't think of a more Christian thing to do.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Your Jeffersonian "God of Nature" was from Deist-like than that of Jesus. He seemed to believe in the "Clock Maker" approach.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The Declaration of Independence was a Lockean document notably devoid of traditional Christian language. It was written by Thomas Jefferson who was not a Christian.

Yet Saint Ding wants you to believe Jefferson was a Christian even though he believed in a God that did not have a Son or a relationship with a Holy Ghost.

Jefferson wrote; Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear

Jefferson believed - the same as Christians believed - that the existence of the God of Nature whose attributes included being a providential, moralistic creator - whose existence and causal relation to the world - is essential to the foundation of natural-rights.

Jefferson clearly did not believe in a providential, moralistic creator being revealed to mankind through any Religious Organization or a divinely inspired book or what he thought about John Calvin.

And TJ to John Adams. April II, 1823, ibid., p. 289: "I can never join Calvin in addressing his God. He was indeed an atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was daemonism. If ever man worshipped are false God, he did. The being described in five points, is not the God whom you and I acknowledge and adore, the creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a daemon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin."​

 

[ding]

The Declaration of Independence was a Lockean document notably devoid of traditional Christian language. It was written by Thomas Jefferson who was not a Christian.

Yet Saint Ding wants you to believe Jefferson was a Christian even though he believed in a God that did not have a Son or a relationship with a Holy Ghost.

Jefferson wrote; Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear



Jefferson clearly did not believe in a providential, moralistic creator being revealed to mankind through any Religious Organization or a divinely inspired book or what he thought about John Calvin.

And TJ to John Adams. April II, 1823, ibid., p. 289: "I can never join Calvin in addressing his God. He was indeed an atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was daemonism. If ever man worshipped are false God, he did. The being described in five points, is not the God whom you and I acknowledge and adore, the creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a daemon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin."​

Jefferson believed - the same as Christians believed - that the existence of the God of Nature whose attributes included being a providential, moralistic creator - whose existence and causal relation to the world - is essential to the foundation of natural-rights. Which is why he helped create - along with many of his Christian countrymen - a system which allowed everyone to practice their faith as they saw fit. I can't think of a more Christian thing to do.

 

[ding]

Your Jeffersonian "God of Nature" was from Deist-like than that of Jesus. He seemed to believe in the "Clock Maker" approach.

It wasn't just Jefferson. All Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed in natural law and natural rights. And all Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed that God was the source of those rights. This is indisputable.

 

[Grumblenuts]

“Let’s remember that December celebrates the birth of our real source of rights in this country, including our right to be free of religious laws forced on others,” states FFRF Greater Sacramento Chapter President Judy Saint. “This is the foundation of our very real freedom, for believers and nonbelievers.”

 

[NotfooledbyW]

It wasn't just Jefferson. All Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed in natural law and natural rights. And all Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed that God was the source of those rights

I have not suggested that Jefferson was the only one. You are evading the critical point I have made on “action”

You cite the common belief that the founding fathers and entire founding generation share with Saint Thomas Aquinas.


I am countering with what actions are taken while Jefferson and Aquinas are under the influence of that shared belief in the same God as Creator thingy that you keep on repeat pasting.

I Limit the discussion to Aquinas, and Jefferson because we have much writing from both men on the topic. Seems a Fair way to do it to me doesn’t it? What both men do with their belief is as different as Trump and Moral Christian Decency.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Jefferson believed -

this about John Calvin:

The being described in five points, is not the God whom you and I acknowledge and adore, the creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a daemon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin."


If we add John Calvin as having the shared belief of what you speak - It’s true they all share a common belief in the Creator of the Universe.

But how can that be when you read Jefferson and take him at his word.

I found no written comments from the only Deist of the three, but I expect Jefferson would not be too kind to Aquinas’s Catholic oppression iver the absolute free-thinkers who dare stand up against the Church State Structure in Europe for over a thousand years.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

It wasn't just Jefferson. All Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed in natural law and natural rights. And all Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed that God was the source of those rights. This is indisputable.

Almost none of the believed in Jesus the way evangelicals and Catholics do today.

Many who claim to be a follower of one denomination of Christianity or another are actually deists or agnostic.

I imagine it always has been son.

 

[ding]

I have not suggested that Jefferson was the only one. You are evading the critical point I have made on “action”

You cite the common belief that the founding fathers and entire founding generation share with Saint Thomas Aquinas.


I am countering with what actions are taken while Jefferson and Aquinas are under the influence of that shared belief in the same God as Creator thingy that you keep on repeat pasting.

I Limit the discussion to Aquinas, and Jefferson because we have much writing from both men on the topic. Seems a Fair way to do it to me doesn’t it? What both men do with their belief is as different as Trump and Moral Christian Decency.

All Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed in natural law and natural rights. And all Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed that God was the source of those rights. This is indisputable.

 

[ding]

this about John Calvin:

The being described in five points, is not the God whom you and I acknowledge and adore, the creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a daemon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin."


If we add John Calvin as having the shared belief of what you speak - It’s true they all share a common belief in the Creator of the Universe.

But how can that be when you read Jefferson and take him at his word.

I found no written comments from the only Deist of the three, but I expect Jefferson would not be too kind to Aquinas’s Catholic oppression iver the absolute free-thinkers who dare stand up against the Church State Structure in Europe for over a thousand years.

All Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed in natural law and natural rights. And all Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed that God was the source of those rights. This is indisputable.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

All Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed in natural law and natural rights. And all Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed that God was the source of those rights. This is indisputable.

And then what? I see you don’t want to talk about a comparison between Jefferson Deist, and Aquinas, a Catholic, who share the same view about a universal God.

Tells me you’re about to run

 

[NotfooledbyW]

All Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed in natural law and natural rights. And all Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed that God was the source of those rights. This is indisputable.

Saint dang is running on way

 

[ding]

Almost none of the believed in Jesus the way evangelicals and Catholics do today.

How so?

 

[ding]

And then what? I see you don’t want to talk about a comparison between Jefferson Deist, and Aquinas, a Catholic, who share the same view about a universal God.

Tells me you’re about to run

Not interested in it. Like I said before... All Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed in natural law and natural rights. And all Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed that God was the source of those rights. There's no reason to go beyond that.

 

[ding]

Saint dang is running on way

No. I've already won. All Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed in natural law and natural rights. And all Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed that God was the source of those rights.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

I am pretty sure this guy does not believe in God, much less Jesus Christ, or Natural Law, or religion.

Mr. Trump is such a sad sack, and even sadder are the tens of millions who follow him.