Zone1 Christian Zionism

[ding]

everyone will differ in how they identify the objective good and the objective evil.

That makes it subjective and not objective. The difference is bias. Objectivity is devoid of bias. Subjectivity isn't. That's why different people will see it differently. In the context of good and evil, slavery and the holocaust are good analogs to use. It's easy to be objective about evil when evil is being done to you. It's harder to be objective about evil when you are the one doing evil to another.

 

[ding]

The world is not black and white, it is an infinite number of shades of grey.

No shit. That's why it's important to be objective. No one ever said figuring it out is easy.

 

[ding]

The nuance you fail to appreciate is that some people may honestly believe that something you label as evil is in fact a good. No rationalizing needed.

How do you think German citizens who lived next to death camps rationalized that good was being done in those camps?

Do you believe their heart was in the right place? And if it was why do you think that should excuse them for rationalizing evil as good? Because by any objective measure what went on in those camps was evil. So whether they were silent about it because of hate, ill placed pride, ignorance or stupidity the end result is the same.

 

[alang1216]

True, but my point is that everyone will differ in how they identify the objective good and the objective evil. The world is not black and white, it is an infinite number of shades of grey.

No shit. That's why it's important to be objective. No one ever said figuring it out is easy.

No, that is why it is impossible to have universal objectivity and why figuring it out is impossible.

 

[ding]

We are in a Christian Zionist thread. I know enough history to know displacement is the rule and not the exception but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Extinction of species is also the rule and not the exception but I'm not in favor of that either.

No wonder you don't believe in God. You don't want anything to ever die.

I never said you had to like it. I just think you dislike it more because it's Christians.

 

[alang1216]

That makes it subjective and not objective. The difference is bias. Objectivity is devoid of bias. Subjectivity isn't. That's why different people will see it differently. In the context of good and evil, slavery and the holocaust are good analogs to use. It's easy to be objective about evil when evil is being done to you. It's harder to be objective about evil when you are the one doing evil to another.

Objectivity is devoid of bias, that is why it is not universal. Morality is like time, it is relative to you only and is different for others. There is absolute time, no wrong or right time.

 

[alang1216]

No wonder you don't believe in God. You don't want anything to ever die.

I never said you had to like it. I just think you dislike it more because it's Christians.

That makes no sense. I don't dislike Christians any more than I dislike any other group, political, religious, social, etc.

 

[ding]

No, that is why it is impossible to have universal objectivity and why figuring it out is impossible.

If by universal objectivity you mean every single person all of the time about everything, yes, that probably is not going to happen. But if we are talking about an individual, its not hard to be objective. The hard part for the individual is being objective all the time about everything. Especially about things that matter to the person.

The good news is that diversity of thought is critical for arriving at objective truth. That's because error cannot stand. Eventually it will fall. So subjectivity plays a role in arriving at objective truth. It's just super messy sometimes.

 

[alang1216]

How do you think German citizens who lived next to death camps rationalized that good was being done in those camps?

Do you believe their heart was in the right place? And if it was why do you think that should excuse them for rationalizing evil as good? Because by any objective measure what went on in those camps was evil. So whether they were silent about it because of hate, ill placed pride, ignorance or stupidity the end result is the same.

I think you underestimate Hitler's genius to convince people to see the world as he saw it. To him, the Jews were an existential threat to Germany and the German people so killing them was an act of self-defense, a good, patriotic act. Nazis didn't have to rationalize evil, they didn't see it as evil.

 

[ding]

Objectivity is devoid of bias, that is why it is not universal. Morality is like time, it is relative to you only and is different for others. There is absolute time, no wrong or right time.

Yes, because sometimes it's good to rape a woman and own a slave, right? Look, no matter how clever you think your arguments are for any given thing there will be a final state of fact. This is called reality or objective truth. Objective truth is reality. If objective truth does not exist then neither does reality.

 

[alang1216]

If by universal objectivity you mean every single person all of the time about everything, yes, that probably is not going to happen. But if we are talking about an individual, its not hard to be objective. The hard part for the individual is being objective all the time about everything. Especially about things that matter to the person.

True.

The good news is that diversity of thought is critical for arriving at objective truth. That's because error cannot stand. Eventually it will fall. So subjectivity plays a role in arriving at objective truth. It's just super messy sometimes.

I like to think error cannot stand but I fear it takes generations. Accepting evolution is a good example.

 

[alang1216]

Yes, because sometimes it's good to rape a woman and own a slave, right? Look, no matter how clever you think your arguments are for any given thing there will be a final state of fact. This is called reality or objective truth. Objective truth is reality. If objective truth does not exist then neither does reality.

As Einstein said, it is all relative. If you grow up in a culture where you have to rape and enslave people to prove your worth to society, is it a good thing to prove your worth? Reality does not require objective truth, neither does time.

 

[ding]

I think you underestimate Hitler's genius to convince people to see the world as he saw it. To him, the Jews were an existential threat to Germany and the German people so killing them was an act of self-defense, a good, patriotic act. Nazis didn't have to rationalize evil, they didn't see it as evil.

Do you understand how they got from a starting position of not killing Jews to arriving at the position of killing Jews? They didn't just flip a switch. It was a graduated process. And all along that graduated process they used rationalizations of good to justify the evil. The slide from good to evil occurs over graduated steps. It starts with small rationalizations that add up to big ones. But the step from one phase to the next is small.

I wouldn't call that genius. I'd call that diabolical.

 

[ding]

True.


I like to think error cannot stand but I fear it takes generations. Accepting evolution is a good example.

Not only is that true but truth can fall back into error. Like I said, it's messy. Where you see no purpose in this, I see purpose. Where you see an unloving God in this, I see a loving God. And for the record, biological evolution and God are not inconsistent. If anything evolution glorifies God.

 

[ding]

As Einstein said, it is all relative. If you grow up in a culture where you have to rape and enslave people to prove your worth to society, is it a good thing to prove your worth? Reality does not require objective truth, neither does time.

Einstein never said reality is relative. And all you have to do to know that rape and slavery are universally wrong, it to be a recipient of it. I get pretty tired of the argument that just because a society did something that that implies there weren't people back then who didn't know it was bullshit.

 

[alang1216]

Do you understand how they got from a starting position of not killing Jews to arriving at the position of killing Jews? They didn't just flip a switch. It was a graduated process. And all along that graduated process they used rationalizations of good to justify the evil. The slide from good to evil occurs over graduated steps. It starts with small rationalizations that add up to big ones. But the step from one phase to the next is small.

Germany has a long history of hating and killing Jews so it was hardly a novel position. Hitler put a hole in the dam and the hate flowed out with little encouragement.

I wouldn't call that genius. I'd call that diabolical.

Hitler went from being homeless to ruling most of Europe in a less than 2 decades. Genius.

 

[alang1216]

Where you see no purpose in this, I see purpose.

I see no goal beyond survival of genes.

Where you see an unloving God in this, I see a loving God.

I see no God, loving or not.

 

[alang1216]

Einstein never said reality is relative. And all you have to do to know that rape and slavery are universally wrong, it to be a recipient of it. I get pretty tired of the argument that just because a society did something that that implies there weren't people back then who didn't know it was bullshit.

I think you judge others by your moral compass. Athens was, at one time, a pinnacle of an enlightened society. They also believed the strong do what they want, the weak endure what they must. They didn't share your concept of good and evil.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Jerusalem has been overtaken and recaptured 44 times. This time, God said He will get involved personally. Israel will forever belong to the Jews. And not just the little sliver they have now.

When I was there, in the room where the last supper took place,, one can see Arabic writing on the walls.....that capture.

 

[PoliticalChic]

PoliticalChic, you have the most beautiful avatar on the US Message Board.

Is that you?

You made me blush.

Yep, me.


I posted this in the computer forum....


There are several apps that make one's photo into a cartoon......your kids will love it.


Popular choices include PhotoDirector, ToonMe, Lensa AI, ToonArt, Clip2Comic, and YouCam Perfect. These apps often utilize AI to detect and transform features like faces, lines, and colors, resulting in a cartoon-like image.


My pic became this....


I was kinda hopin' for Mighty Mouse.