Winston
Platinum Member
Sorry that I am long winded, but attempting to concisely
I'll give you the Cliff Notes version since many don't have the attention span:
I recommend you listen.
- China is using the Left's rhetoric against us -- How can we be the moral compass of the world when our President states we are a systemically racist nation
- Leftists are telling people just because they are minorities they start with one arm tied behind their back. This is not only a lie but very dehumanizing. Nikki Haley is a minority btw.
- China is surpassing us in military strength, specifically the Navy.
- Biden's border policies are abhorrent.
- We had to pass a Bill to test illegals coming over the border for COVD-19.
Thank you,
I will take Haley on. First, equity. She is mischaracterizing the movement. It is not about equity of outcome, nor is it about equity of opportunity. Neither is either possible or desirable. Her even discussing equity of opportunity reveals her lack of knowledge. Everyone is born with specific talents and traits, we are not all created equal. Some people are blessed with high intelligence. Some are born with strong healthy genes and natural immunity to many diseases. Some are born into wealth. Hell, even birth order has a significant impact on "equality of opportunity". Haley was born into relative wealth and was the oldest, the fact that she doesn't acknowledge or recognize those advantages speaks to her ignorance of the issue. The core concept of the equality movement is rewarding the successful, but also improving the lives of the disadvantaged. In the past our progressive tax system, higher corporate taxes, went a long way in delivering, not equality of outcome or opportunity, but making things "fair". Over the past four decades that system has been dismantled to the point that, today, there is very little "improving the lives of the less fortunate" going on. Our system should be created behind a "veil of ignorance", instead of what we have today, a system created by the elite, for the elite.
When Haley speaks of our daughter what she is really saying is that she knows her daughter is born with advantages, and instead of acknowledging that reality, and perhaps taking some of the rewards of those advantages to improve the lives of those less advantaged, she instead wants her daughter to be able to keep most of those rewards and build a "fortress" around her wealth while watching the calamity of the poor, their poverty, increase. That is about as unAmerican as it gets.
What wealth?
Her father was a professor, her mother a lawyer. She was far from "disadvantaged".
And? She was a middle class American? Is that evil these days?
Upper middle class, and no, that is not evil, or even a problem. The problem is Haley wants to play off her "minority" status, and she acts as if any minority has an "equal opportunity" like she did. She knows it is not true, I mean she sure as hell not going to move to Columbia and enroll her daughter in an inner city school, yet she wants to pretend those students at that inner city school have the same "opportunities" as she did. It is insulting. And to make matters worse, she actually believes she is entitled to all that she has gained from those advantages, like the family she was born in to or the intelligence she was born with.
And Shapiro is even worse. I mean that pompous ass really believes he actually deserves all the opportunities and success he has had. That he owes nothing back to a society that just happens to value the traits he possesses. What he fails to realize is that if he was born a 100,000 years ago, in a hunter gatherer society, if those "humans" believed as he believed, well his ass would have been left to starve to death.
I mean I hate to go all Skynard on you, but if you have never been down in the ghetto, never felt that cold wind blow, then you know nothing. People like Haley, Shapiro, should be rounded up, dropped down into some trailer park where the rent is due every Friday, with no money, and then left for a year. Bet they come out with a changed attitude.
Wrong. She said she doesn’t want her daughter labeled. Your last paragraph is at best disturbing. Those people if they are in that situation should try to improve it and not blame me or others for it.
I think you are missing the point. Haley actually believes that she deserves all the opportunities she has had. Kind of like that thing about building. She believes she achieved her success all on her own. And worse, she believes everyone has "equal opportunity". That is naive at best, total ignorance at worse. But then again, maybe she doesn't really believe it. She knows she was given certain advantages, like birth order, intelligence, and economic status. But she feels entitled to them and she works to protect them and pass them on.
And I reread my post. I never said that those living in poverty should blame anyone. What I did say is that those of us that were born with certain advantages should understand that we did nothing to earn those advantages, and that we owe back to the society that actually values those advantages.
My grandfather was about five foot nothing, but tougher than nails and meaner than a snake. He grew up a migrant farm worker with 16 brothers and sisters. He build a farm, and raised a family where all the children became quite successful. Standing in the receiving line at his funeral, beside my father. Hundreds of people, working class, mostly dirt poor. Dad turned to me and said, "You see all these people, they are the salt of the earth, don't you ever forget that". Haley, Shapiro, nobody ever told them that. By believing they deserve all that mere circumstance provided them, they in no small way believe they are better than those that were not so fortunate. And the core problem with this country, which Trump exemplifies, is that there are literally millions of those fortunate individuals that feel the same way. Skynard had it right, and sorry I could not post Ronnie singing the song, because he knew it better than anyone.
Why are you so long winded. You do not know what she believes and we all have certain advantages and disadvantages. What is your point? Address this question. Don’t deflect.
My point is simple. Everyone in this country is not equal. Some are born smarter than others. Some are born into families with more resources than others. Some are born with more opportunities than others. And those that are owe a debt to society that should be paid. For instance, maybe you were born with great math abilities, and you become a successful engineer, maybe even an engineer scientist. But you are frail, and tiny, and couldn't hunt for shit. Don't you owe something to a society that values what you were gifted with? Because, let's be honest, were you born a hundred thousand years ago your ass would be dependent on the strong, powerful, hunters. And your skills would be worthless.
I mean I am spouting Michael Sandel from Harvard university, but he is as spot on as Ronnie Van Zant.
How Darwinist of you. Engineering skills would have been valuable then too as they were in Ancient Rome. I owe my family, that is it. The rest of my “debt” I pay via taxes and charitable contributions both in terms of time and money.
Ancient Rome was about 2,000 years ago, not 100,000 years ago. What evolution did do was cultivate humans that showed empathy and cooperation. We know, from archeology and anthropology, that even cavemen took care of those that were disabled. Group hunting cultivated cooperation. Your statement, "I owe my family, that is it" clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding as to, what Sandel describes, a debt to a society that places value on your particular skill.
The other concept of Sandel's, that you fail to understand, is the "veil of ignorance". We should structure society through that veil of ignorance, not knowing rather we would be born into privilege or poverty, born strong or weak, born in a developed nation or sub-sahara Africa. A society structured with that method is going to provide benefits to those with the least, funded by those with the most. The "fairness" revolves around that debt to society. Instead, you, and most Republicans, are content with a society that is structured to benefit YOU, and the circumstances like which womb you climbed out of, where that womb was located, and the skills you were endowed with, which you had absolutely nothing to do with, are somehow deserved by you. And forgive me if I am wrong, but that certainly applies to both Haley and Shapiro, and that is the subject of this thread.
Who is we? I told you, I pay taxes and give to charity. Hell I donated my own blood for 14 mos to help whose with COVID as I had the antibodies. What specifically did you do? You speak in grandiose views but they are irrelevant. My skills were there due to genetics yes but also through hard work, perseverance and determination. I am not sure where you’re going with this but again you’re long winded and don’t have a point. What specifically is your point? Can you make it relevantly and concisely?
Sorry I am long winded, but attempting to concisely define the political philosophy of the world's most preeminent political philosopher is a bit daunting.
Justice Course – Harvard Justice
justiceharvard.org
Take the course, it is free, and millions of people have taken it. He is really "huge" in China. Without a doubt, he is the most engaging professor I have ever been associated with. I would really be interested in how you answer the trolley car question from his first lecture. But I will give it a shot.
The circumstances of your birth, from your birth order to the genetics you were gifted, have nothing to do with YOU. Rather or not society itself places value on those circumstances, has nothing to do with YOU. So you have a debt, a debt to providence, a debt to society, for those "gifts".
One of the best parts of Sandel's lectures happens in about lecture four. Here he is, at Harvard University, in a class with hundreds of students, and he asked everyone that is a first born child to raise their hands. At least three fourths of that class raise their hands. First borns have an advantage, and you can see it in the eyes of the students as they suddenly realize that reality as they look around and notice all the others raising their hands. They had nothing to do with that, and here they are, at a world class institution, and part of that might not have been through their own hard work but through the circumstances of their birth.
But you asked about me. Well I live in the South Mountain area of North Carolina on land that my family has owned since before the American Revolution. In fact, like most people around me, it was a King's Grant. While my grandfather might have been raised dirt poor as a migrant farm worker, my other grandfather was given a Cadillac at 16 and his father owned thousand of acres of, what is now, prime Blue Ridge mountain real estate. That is the source of the King's grant. The truth is, I never had to strike a damn lick. I could have sat back and waited to get my inheritance, except for one thing. It don't work that way with my family. That goes back to the migrant farm worker. While other family members did just that, sat back and waited, Dad made sure that you "earned" that inheritance. He might have not taken Sandel's course, but he understood the concept. Those that waited ended up with nothing. Those that used their talents to improve society were gifted that land. I have six kids, a couple doctors, one medical, the other material science, a philosophy major LOL, and a health management major. The one without a degree makes six figures as a real estate agent, go figure.
Me, I understand explicitly the gifts that God has granted me. I understand that I, in no way, deserve those gifts. And I give back, actually more than I keep for myself. Because in the end, what we have accomplished means nothing, but what we leave behind is the only legacy we have.
OMG…that is concise to you? So let’s call a spade a spade. Are you a Darwinist? Yes or no? Harvard doesn’t impress me. I went to Duke. What we accomplish doesn’t mean anything? Hmmm…I disagree. You also have zero proof of God. How primitive.
Six figures also isn’t overly impressive anymore. I live in Brookline, MA. Tough to get by on under $500k per annum AGI.
OMG, Duke? I went to Carolina homeboy. You went to the University of North Carolina--New Jersey. Duke is a bunch of elitist pricks. Duke actively recruited my ass, I was ranked top ten in the nation in High School debate. Why the hell would I want to go to a school with a bunch of privileged yankees when the business school at a public university was higher ranked? English department, which I hold a minor in, was top five in the country. Hell, I studied under a Nobel prize winner and a Pulitzer. Sure would not have got that at University of North Carolina-New Jersey. Damn, but you just revealed the biggest problem right there. And yeah, impressed or not, you need to take that course. You are a damn Dookie. They coddle your ass and tell you that you deserve your privilege. I mean wow, you just revealed so much.
Way to broad brush. Don’t hate because we smoked everyone in basketball while still being smarter and better looking than you…
LMAO, I was at Carolina for TWO national championships, the first in 1982 when I was a sophomore, the second in 1993 when I was getting my MBA. The only games I went to we were spanking Duke's ass. Smarter, don't think so. Especially since you seem to have a hard time grasping Sandel. Better looking, hell, I might give you that. But I guarantee my wife, who is Scottish royalty, 14 years my junior, and smokin hot, far surpasses any women you have ever even been near.