Challenge the Atheist!

[KevinWestern]

Agnostic, really, but that isn't as good a title. I don't believe in a God or gods. I also don't believe there necessarily isn't a God or gods. I've been an agnostic all my life, despite being raised in Idaho.

But, anyway, bring the questions or attacks and I'll do my best to address them.

Ready? Go!

I'm with you in that I don't claim there is or isn't a good; I mean, I just have no way of confirming.

But what's your take on things like Astral Projection, and cases where people claim to have the ability to leave their body and transverse with others on the astral plain? And similarly, what's your take on cases where people who are near death report leaving their body and can describe things that took place in an ER - for instance - when they were presumably unconscious?

I don't necessarily believe in a Christian/Muslim/specific God, but I like to think that our spiritual being/awareness rejoins the whole (lives on) once we parish.


.

 

[MaryL]

Agnosticism is rational. We don’t debate if Unicorns or the Loch Ness monster exists, anymore that Allah or the purple one eyed people eater does, we don’t need to . We can’t prove a negative. Don't need to, and don’t bother. Rationality VS mysticism . Believe whatever you want. Agnostics put a man on the moon, religion put Galileo under house arrest and puts IED bombs in Iraq and Boston to hurt innocent people. Take your pick which is better.

 

[numan]

Some day God will deal with the Atheist...

It is the Last Judgment. God stands before the Pearly Gates dividing the people into two groups. To the group on His right He says, "Oh, My true and faithful Atheists, well done! I created the world without any evidence of My existence; indeed, all the evidence led in the opposite direction! I gave mankind the god-like power of reason, and you, noble atheists, used that gift properly and courageously! The false promises of religion did not mislead you; you resisted the lure of fables backed by authority; childish hopes of comfort and salvation did not deter you from uncompromisingly following the path of reason, as you saw it, to its final conclusions. Even ridicule, discrimination and persecution did not daunt you; the talents which I gave you, you used and increased; for your intelligence and courage, for your ability to reject folly and seek wisdom---Welcome! Enter into Eternal Glory!"

Then God turns to the group on His left and says, "You religious fools! You infantile cowards! Through fear you refused to grow up and become adults. You clung to fables and just-so stories. You were unwilling to exercise the intelligence which I gave you as my most priceless gift! No absurdity was too great, no fairy tale too outrageous, provided it gave you childish comfort and the vain hope that no matter what crimes you committed, some Outside Power would reach down and save your unworthy butts! You have wasted and corrupted My gifts! My universe has no place for such as you; I reject you utterly! Into the Lake of Eternal Fire with you, and be consumed!!"
.

 

[numan]

 

[BreezeWood]

It is the Last Judgment. God stands before the Pearly Gates dividing the people into two groups. To the group on His right He says ...

of course the Believers know there will only be one undividable group left and living who will be the subject of the Final Judgement - as the death of the last decenter will be the reason for the Final gathering.

 

[Sunshine]

No one has any questions or challenges? Perhaps agnosticism is the only real rational position.

You seem more like the doggie style type to me.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Prophecy has been brought up numerous times. Prophecy is a popular topic amongst the religious, as that which has been seen to be fulfilled is an important claim to legitimacy. While I appreciate and admire the sentiment of Christianity, and many of the moral lessons of the Bible, reliance on prophecy is extremely problematic.

The Bible predicted many things that were supposed to have happened in the past or have not yet happened. That is, there are plenty of examples of unfulfilled prophecy.

The Ezekiel prophecy of the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar is a dubious one. Scripture says fairly blatantly that Tyre would be completely destroyed. It was not, but let's say that this one can be considered partially fulfilled.

Ezekiel describes the utter destruction of Egypt by God and turned into a desolate waste for 40 years. Perhaps this is still going to happen, because it hasn't happened yet, and I doubt this prophecy was intended to take that long. Additionally, Nebuchadnezzar was supposed to have attacked and destroyed Egypt and filled the land with the bodies of the slain. Neb's only attempt at invading Egypt was not a success.

Both Ezekiel and Isaiah predicted that the Nile would dry up. Isaiah gives a pretty clear time line, not something that may still be fulfilled, but to have happened during pagan Egypt. The Nile is not nor has it ever been dry.

The Isaiah prophecy that Egypt would speak the language of Canaan and adopt Judaism. Perhaps we can loosely interpret that Isaiah is referring to Hebrew in general. Otherwise this prophecy is a virtual impossibility since the Canaanite languages are long dead. So, I guess perhaps this prophecy could still come to pass and Egypt will speak Hebrew and adopt Judaism? Call me a skeptic on this one.

The Ezekiel prophecy that Israel will live in peace with it's neighbors must be on that will still come to pass, as the entire history of Israel goes in direct contrast to it. No specific time line is given, so I guess time will tell.

There are other examples, just as I am sure there are theists who can point out examples of fulfilled prophecies. Additionally, this is not meant to ridicule Christians, dissuade faith, or claim that Christianity is full of it. I do have serious issues with prophecy, however. Prophecy is often touted as a testament to Biblical inerrancy, yet we are asked to disregard clearly unfulfilled prophecies, or at least not count them against this idea of inerrancy.

What value I find in the Bible comes not from considering it the inerrant Word of God, so I'm not under any burden to prove anything. Those that make this claim, however, are under such an obligation.

 

[HUGGY]

It is the Last Judgment. God stands before the Pearly Gates dividing the people into two groups. To the group on His right He says ...

of course the Believers know there will only be one undividable group left and living who will be the subject of the Final Judgement - as the death of the last decenter will be the reason for the Final gathering.

AND THAT'S NOT ALL !!!

If you gather NOW... we will double the number of gatherers !!!!!

All you have to do is pay the extra shipping costs of the second gatherer !!!!

 

[The Irish Ram]

"Who will win the next Nobel prize?
What horse will win the Derby? Which will win the Preakness? The name of the last horse to cross the finish line in both races.
The date when the first cancer cure will be administered?
Name the president of the US, sitting in the oval office 70 years from now.......... '

A scientist will win the next noble Prize
A brown horse will win the derby
Cancer will be cured in 2087
The president 70 years from now will be: Jose, Jesus, Rodriguez, Guadalupe, Francsico, III
__________________

Except the bible doesn't give dates.

So Cancer will be cured someday. And the President at some point will be a darker man than those who came before...

My favorite are some of the prophecies in Revelation. Horseman blowing horns... I once read a book from the 50's that speculated that it could have meant our Mounted Calvary Jeeps laying on the horn.

You're wrong. The Bible does give dates

to the day

.
As for the rest, you have no clue and yet you dismiss a God that does. You can't refute or emulate prophecy.
You guessing and God knowing are 2 different things. You've proven that. You didn't even know that dates were prophesied.
Today is May 4, 2013. What will the date be seventy years from now? See what Daniel understood that you don't comprehend?

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

"Who will win the next Nobel prize?
What horse will win the Derby? Which will win the Preakness? The name of the last horse to cross the finish line in both races.
The date when the first cancer cure will be administered?
Name the president of the US, sitting in the oval office 70 years from now.......... '

A scientist will win the next noble Prize
A brown horse will win the derby
Cancer will be cured in 2087
The president 70 years from now will be: Jose, Jesus, Rodriguez, Guadalupe, Francsico, III
__________________

Except the bible doesn't give dates.

So Cancer will be cured someday. And the President at some point will be a darker man than those who came before...

My favorite are some of the prophecies in Revelation. Horseman blowing horns... I once read a book from the 50's that speculated that it could have meant our Mounted Calvary Jeeps laying on the horn.

You're wrong. The Bible does give dates

to the day

.
As for the rest, you have no clue and yet you dismiss a God that does. You can't refute or emulate prophecy.
You guessing and God knowing are 2 different things. You've proven that. You didn't even know that dates were prophesied.
Today is May 4, 2013. What will the date be seventy years from now? See what Daniel understood that you don't comprehend?

Ram,

I would very much like you to provide specifics about the to-the-date prophecies that you are referring to. Not to debunk, necessarily, but to investigate. I may attempt to debunk something, I can't promise that won't happen. I've seen you post saying that the Bible gives very specific times for prophecies, yet I rarely see you give specific verses or interpretations.

While I find the reliance on religious prophecy to be problematic, I am nonetheless fascinated by the topic. Most Christians I've seen post here tend to take ANY challenge of Biblical belief and make the knee-jerk assumption that it is just another atheist trying to ridicule them. Since that is often the case, I understand the reaction even if I do not condone it. However, you do seem a little more mature than most, though we clearly disagree regarding the Bible's inerrancy.

 

[emilynghiem]

It is the Last Judgment. God stands before the Pearly Gates dividing the people into two groups. To the group on His right He says ...

of course the Believers know there will only be one undividable group left and living who will be the subject of the Final Judgement - as the death of the last decenter will be the reason for the Final gathering.

AND THAT'S NOT ALL !!!

If you gather NOW... we will double the number of gatherers !!!!!

All you have to do is pay the extra shipping costs of the second gatherer !!!!

Actually Huggy, everyone, all of humanity puts ourselves under judgment.
As you can even see on these threads and forums.

We compare perceptions, and if one person hangs another person or group,
people respond by hanging that person by their own words.

This is just human nature to do this, to learn by comparing experiences
and perceptions with others!

The Bible also explains this is why we should focus on removing the
beams (or biases) from our own eyes, before seeing clearly to help
a neighbor remove a splinter.

If you judge others, by your own words and actions, the same shall you be judged.
If you forgive others and seek corrections, you also receive the same graces.
You get what you give, you get the justice you deserve by reaping what you sow.

The Golden Rule applies to all people, the laws of karma or cause and effect.
This is the meaning of universal laws of "equal justice" that all people are under.
The meaning of Jesus as "universal messiah or message" is the coming of the spirit of justice to fulfill these
laws for ALL PEOPLE, so this connects us with Universal Truth which is what
the Kingdom of God represents: going through the process of "salvation
or enlightenment" to establish Justice to establish Truth for all.
Christians receive this spirit of Justice individually, and collectively as all
people embody and embrace the spirit of truth and justice "by conscience"
then all humanity is saved from hellish suffering by becoming unified in spiritual peace and harmony.

This affects all people, we are all engaged in this process, this learning curve on the path to "equal justice" for all people.
Some people are more aware of it than others. But it involves us all the same.

Some people only understand salvation using church laws.
Some people only understand justice using state laws.
Some people see the connection of both with the same spirit of truth and justice fulfilling BOTH paths in harmony.
So we will always have believers under sacred laws of the church
and secular gentiles under civil laws of the state, but as the
universal meaning and spirit of justice fulfills both paths,
then these two will be in harmony where conflicts will be resolved in truth.
So this is what it means when Jesus or Justice governs both folds of the one flock,
the secular gentiles under natural laws and the churched believers under sacred laws.
the two become one in harmony where there is no more division in Christ Jesus,
but agreement in the spirit of "Restorative Justice" which is the meaning that unites all people of every group.

 

[emilynghiem]

Except the bible doesn't give dates.

So Cancer will be cured someday. And the President at some point will be a darker man than those who came before...

My favorite are some of the prophecies in Revelation. Horseman blowing horns... I once read a book from the 50's that speculated that it could have meant our Mounted Calvary Jeeps laying on the horn.

You're wrong. The Bible does give dates

to the day

.
As for the rest, you have no clue and yet you dismiss a God that does. You can't refute or emulate prophecy.
You guessing and God knowing are 2 different things. You've proven that. You didn't even know that dates were prophesied.
Today is May 4, 2013. What will the date be seventy years from now? See what Daniel understood that you don't comprehend?

Ram,

I would very much like you to provide specifics about the to-the-date prophecies that you are referring to. Not to debunk, necessarily, but to investigate. I may attempt to debunk something, I can't promise that won't happen. I've seen you post saying that the Bible gives very specific times for prophecies, yet I rarely see you give specific verses or interpretations.

While I find the reliance on religious prophecy to be problematic, I am nonetheless fascinated by the topic. Most Christians I've seen post here tend to take ANY challenge of Biblical belief and make the knee-jerk assumption that it is just another atheist trying to ridicule them. Since that is often the case, I understand the reaction even if I do not condone it. However, you do seem a little more mature than most, though we clearly disagree regarding the Bible's inerrancy.

Dear JimmyJam: the prophecies that describe what humanity will experience in general
are already demonstrated, either individually or collectively or both.

People will divide over issues of justice and the law, for sake of Justice or Jesus,
and divide congregations brother against brother; family against family;
accusing one while excusing the other, haggling over the letter of the law.

We see this happening every day. It happens here, and in politics.

People will be crying out for the Lord or Jesus, for the spirit of Justice and spirit of the LAW to come forth.

The sheep and the goats will be delineated.
The secular from the sacred, the people under church law and the people under state law
as we seek to establish the laws or spirit of JUSTICE to fulfill BOTH, as the meaning of Jesus.

Both the secular gentiles under natural laws will seek and respond to truth and justice
by CONSCIENCE, as you and I are even doing here,
as the believers under sacred laws are called to be witnesses to defend truths under those
laws as well, as we are seeing here.

So this is already happening, and has BEEN happening since people gained self-awareness
and started receiving, writing down and sharing knowledge of the LAWS.

the same process the church goes through, with losing the spirit of the laws to corruption
by the letter of the law exploited for greed for power,
the state is also going through, with trying to restore the original spirit of the laws
as EQUAL JUSTICE that have been lost to political partisan greed for power the SAME WAY.

so we see this same pattern happening again historically.
All things humans have experienced are part of this pattern.

the point is to learn how NOT to repeat the same mistakes that lead to corruption and war,
but to understand how to break the cycle of injustice by the spirit of Restorative Justice
which is the secular equivalent of Christ Jesus, bringing peace and justice for all.

This is happening, you can see the process going on now.
How it is fulfilled, you would have to look at successful cases of
Restorative Justice bringing mediation and peace to situations of conflict,
to see miniature examples of how this process has been working for people who try it.

And then infer that if this same process is repeated collectively
then all humanity can reach peace and justice the same way, by forgiving
and correcting wrongs so that there is equity and even restitution to heal relationships
and restore good faith.

This has not happened yet, for all humanity, so it is not yet fulfilled.
It takes a leap of faith to see that if forgiveness can breing about
recovery and redemption for diverse cases here and there,
then it shows this can and/or is happening for all of humanity collectively.

This will not be proven physically until we see it more fully achieved in real life
events and relationships. We can start with this board, and show the peace process of establishing common agreements on truth and justice is happening
here, but taking it further into the physical reality and making peace among
religious and political parties nationwide and worldwide is a subsequent level after that.

 

[emilynghiem]

Agnosticism is rational. We don’t debate if Unicorns or the Loch Ness monster exists, anymore that Allah or the purple one eyed people eater does, we don’t need to . We can’t prove a negative. Don't need to, and don’t bother. Rationality VS mysticism . Believe whatever you want. Agnostics put a man on the moon, religion put Galileo under house arrest and puts IED bombs in Iraq and Boston to hurt innocent people. Take your pick which is better.

Dear Mary: The most rational approach I see is NOT to think you have to pick which is "better" but to use BOTH approaches where they are most effective and yield the most good.

The faith based approach is superior when it comes to helping people who are so oppressed and sick with emotions and irrational thoughts, that the rational approach of mental and medical therapy fails because these people reject help, even attacking the people trying to help them which is of course irrational. the only ppl I know who have been able to save people from self-destructive addictions and suicide aer those who take a spiritual approach that transcends the mind which is out of control with some of these people! [if you read books by Scott Peck such as "Glimpses of the Devil" he was not able to treat severe schizophrenic patients until AFTER applying the methods of deliverance recommended by priests, and only after those spiritual methods worked then the patients agreed to follow therapy because they had gotten their rational minds back and the ability to reason and with the doctors that they were attacking before.] This approach has SAVED LIVES, so I will not throw that out just because it uses faith in forgiveness to heal people that have so lost their minds in negative sickness and rage that no amount of reasoning will work with them!

As Peck, a psychiatrist bent on using the scientific method to try to disprove these spiritual theories, observed himself, there was no way to explain or prove
any of the spiritual process he and his team saw going on; but out of purely following the scientific method, if the proposed cure WORKS to heal the patient's mind of demonic voices and sickness blocking them from complying with treatment to save their lives, then this can still be applied to help such patients, REGARDLESS if it is
ever proven to be spiritual or delusional or whatever is causing the demon voices to be reported and causing them to be removed and controlled, if it works then use it!

I agree with you Mary, clearly the secular approach of using science and reason is superior when it comes to understanding and explaining "WHY things work and WHY things fail." The human mind and conscience NEEDS to understand some things before we can accept them. In order to teach people and to respect free will and reason in making informed choices by conscience, this way is ABSOLUTELY necessary for people to have 100% conviction in their understanding and beliefs, because it makes sense and they have chosen it freely not because of blind faith.

So BOTH approaches are needed to help people, depending on the situation.
They check and balance each other, and where these two AGREE that helps to
establish what is universally true and beneficial for the greater good of humanity.

We need BOTH in the world, and could not perfect either path without the other complement.

 

[emilynghiem]

How do you know? What supports your belief? And what if you're wong?

If there is a god as you believe it to be and I am condemned to hell just because I guessed wrong, then I will be in hell and you will spend eternity with a being who thinks that is an appropriate punishment for guessing wrong. You have my sincere pity.

... and I am condemned to hell just because I guessed wrong


no, to reach the Everlasting is to be accomplished while alive, if not it may be in your last breath to know what you have missed out on.


- the Everlasting exists and is what is seen everyday, the accomplishment is seeing it without a body.

and there "is" functionality ... such as becoming a DNA engineer for future generations - someone has to do it.

and there is a God that is the Standard.

No, PF, we only condemn ourselves to suffering if we cannot forgive things.
Any error or mistake or misjudgment can happen in life, to the best of people equally as the worst.

where we FORGIVE and seek to correct, then NO ONE Needs to suffer condemnation.
And you may find this curious, that I have as many nontheists/atheist friends who are forgiving and thus 'saved by grace' by forgiving others so they are also forgiven,
as Christian friends; and as many Christian friends who CANNOT forgive and are blocking their own salvation and relationship with God by this unforgiveness!

Forgiveness/unforgiveness is the deciding factor between heaven and hell, or peace and harmony vs. pain and suffering.
this is INDEPENDENT of what religious or political views or affiliations we use to express our principels and beliefs, even
believers in Jesus may be on the side of retribution and hell, while atheists may be on the side of restoring justice and peace for heaven's sake.

If you look at all the cases of people suffering, whether personal grief or anger, relationships suffering in unresolved conflict or abuse, or whole nations or groups at war with each other: The factor escalating all wrongs into bigger messes is UNFORGIVENESS
and unwillingness fear or distrust in working TOGETHER to address what went wrong
that hurt BOTH sides.

and also, if you look at other examples of all these types of situations,
where you see people FORGIVE, then you see people regaining their peace of mind
and healing emotionally, regardless where the process is of resolving the abuse or injustice.
Their emotional and mental wellbeing is NOT dependent on if these problems are corrected yet.

They are at peace no matter what path or part of the process they are in, good or bad.
So this shows that as long as you keep faith in forgiveness, then the mind
can remain at peace, so that is where the Kingdom of God and heavenly peace
is found, is at that level of letting go and forgiving so you don't carry
negative thoughts perceptions or emotions attached to any thing person or situation
that causing suffering on any level.

 

[emilynghiem]

Agnostic, really, but that isn't as good a title. I don't believe in a God or gods. I also don't believe there necessarily isn't a God or gods. I've been an agnostic all my life, despite being raised in Idaho.

But, anyway, bring the questions or attacks and I'll do my best to address them.

Ready? Go!

Do you believe there is some intelligent order to the laws in the world,
such as laws of science and laws of human nature or how the conscience works.

Are you okay with both nontheists and theists agreeing that regardless
if some God created these laws, or if they naturally exist as 'self-evident'
or "self-existent" then we can all still agree on the content of those
laws so we can work together to achieve greater good for mutual benefit,
regardless if we personify God or just believe in natural laws existing on their own.

What do you suggest for bringing people together on this level?
What do you think needs to be corrected, or what can be taught to get
people on the same page with following universal laws we agree upon
regardless if we have different beliefs about the source of these laws? Thanks!

Dear ColoradoMM:
Do you have a reply to the above points?

AS for being agnostic, I agree it is better to be objective/openminded/forgiving
as opposed to being closeminded or fundamentally rejecting based on assumptions.

It is not so much the affiliation or system we have,
because each system can be applied consistently to work with all others harmoniously,
or applied where it conflicts with itself to cause conflicts with others as a consequence.

So the point is to be consistent with whichever approach you use.

In general, I find that people will project conflicts they have
onto other people and situations if there is some issue that
is not forgiven or resolved; so conflicts are mostly caused by
that lack of correction within the system, and not the system itself
which actually benefits and perfects itself from addressing and resolving such issues.

In this process, I believe that all systems will be proven to be RIGHT.
the Right way to practice nontheism will complement and harmonize with all other ways.
The Right way to practice Constitutional laws will resolve all conflicts within that system.
the Right way to interpret Christianity, or Buddhism or Islam will make peace
and reach perfect spiritual harmony within that group and with all other groups likewise.

so what will be removed are all the conflicts within the
perception or practice of each group, among its own followers and leaders,
and then these can be reconciled in harmony with the other paths or ways doing the same.

 

[emilynghiem]

"Who will win the next Nobel prize?
What horse will win the Derby? Which will win the Preakness? The name of the last horse to cross the finish line in both races.
The date when the first cancer cure will be administered?
Name the president of the US, sitting in the oval office 70 years from now.......... '

A scientist will win the next noble Prize
A brown horse will win the derby
Cancer will be cured in 2087
The president 70 years from now will be: Jose, Jesus, Rodriguez, Guadalupe, Francsico, III
__________________

Except the bible doesn't give dates.

So Cancer will be cured someday. And the President at some point will be a darker man than those who came before...

My favorite are some of the prophecies in Revelation. Horseman blowing horns... I once read a book from the 50's that speculated that it could have meant our Mounted Calvary Jeeps laying on the horn.

For the Nobel I nominate whatever mixed team of both Atheists and scientists, spiritual healers and theologians, become the first to prove by medical research that the process of spiritual diagnostic and deliverance to heal schizophrenic or criminally ill people of "demonic voices" is real, safe and effective, using technological advances to measure and monitor the changes in the patients' brain functions.

So by proving a medically valid process of diagnosis, measuring, monitoring and/or curing mental and criminal illness caused by demonic or spiritual addictions, this would revolutionize the mental health and criminal justice systems, and save billions of dollars wasted on losses of life property and taxes to crime and its costs to society and victims. More lives and resources could be saved where this knowledge is used to build cost-effective health care by changing the medical system of education, outreach and provisions to cover more of the populations, by reducing the costs of crime and treatment of disease, and increasing the success of preventative and corrective measures.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

You're wrong. The Bible does give dates.
As for the rest, you have no clue and yet you dismiss a God that does. You can't refute or emulate prophecy.
You guessing and God knowing are 2 different things. You've proven that. You didn't even know that dates were prophesied.
Today is May 4, 2013. What will the date be seventy years from now? See what Daniel understood that you don't comprehend?

Ram,

I would very much like you to provide specifics about the to-the-date prophecies that you are referring to. Not to debunk, necessarily, but to investigate. I may attempt to debunk something, I can't promise that won't happen. I've seen you post saying that the Bible gives very specific times for prophecies, yet I rarely see you give specific verses or interpretations.

While I find the reliance on religious prophecy to be problematic, I am nonetheless fascinated by the topic. Most Christians I've seen post here tend to take ANY challenge of Biblical belief and make the knee-jerk assumption that it is just another atheist trying to ridicule them. Since that is often the case, I understand the reaction even if I do not condone it. However, you do seem a little more mature than most, though we clearly disagree regarding the Bible's inerrancy.

Dear JimmyJam: the prophecies that describe what humanity will experience in general
are already demonstrated, either individually or collectively or both.

People will divide over issues of justice and the law, for sake of Justice or Jesus,
and divide congregations brother against brother; family against family;
accusing one while excusing the other, haggling over the letter of the law.

We see this happening every day. It happens here, and in politics.

People will be crying out for the Lord or Jesus, for the spirit of Justice and spirit of the LAW to come forth.

The sheep and the goats will be delineated.
The secular from the sacred, the people under church law and the people under state law
as we seek to establish the laws or spirit of JUSTICE to fulfill BOTH, as the meaning of Jesus.

Both the secular gentiles under natural laws will seek and respond to truth and justice
by CONSCIENCE, as you and I are even doing here,
as the believers under sacred laws are called to be witnesses to defend truths under those
laws as well, as we are seeing here.

So this is already happening, and has BEEN happening since people gained self-awareness
and started receiving, writing down and sharing knowledge of the LAWS.

the same process the church goes through, with losing the spirit of the laws to corruption
by the letter of the law exploited for greed for power,
the state is also going through, with trying to restore the original spirit of the laws
as EQUAL JUSTICE that have been lost to political partisan greed for power the SAME WAY.

so we see this same pattern happening again historically.
All things humans have experienced are part of this pattern.

the point is to learn how NOT to repeat the same mistakes that lead to corruption and war,
but to understand how to break the cycle of injustice by the spirit of Restorative Justice
which is the secular equivalent of Christ Jesus, bringing peace and justice for all.

This is happening, you can see the process going on now.
How it is fulfilled, you would have to look at successful cases of
Restorative Justice bringing mediation and peace to situations of conflict,
to see miniature examples of how this process has been working for people who try it.

And then infer that if this same process is repeated collectively
then all humanity can reach peace and justice the same way, by forgiving
and correcting wrongs so that there is equity and even restitution to heal relationships
and restore good faith.

This has not happened yet, for all humanity, so it is not yet fulfilled.
It takes a leap of faith to see that if forgiveness can breing about
recovery and redemption for diverse cases here and there,
then it shows this can and/or is happening for all of humanity collectively.

This will not be proven physically until we see it more fully achieved in real life
events and relationships. We can start with this board, and show the peace process of establishing common agreements on truth and justice is happening
here, but taking it further into the physical reality and making peace among
religious and political parties nationwide and worldwide is a subsequent level after that.

Thanks Emily.

When it comes to faith, spiritual belief, higher order, etc., there is only one thing that I am certain of: human beings have an inescapable spiritual drive. This is true now, was true in antiquity, and was true in prehistory. I find the discovery of Gobekli Tepi an extremely fascinating demonstration of sophisticated religious observance that predates written history by a significant amount, and there is at least another 50 years before the entire thing is unearthed.

God is real, be it a well-defined deity and set of laws by a developed religion, a vague perception of a higher order or power, or simply a human construct. The unmistakable reliance of humanity on spiritual matters from before recorded history make God very real. Scientific inquiry can help to debunk the superstitious, and indeed should, but in all of it's advances, the one thing it cannot do is disprove the existence of God. Disproving the existence of God is an impossibility, whereas recognizing the reality of God in the lives of human beings is much easier to do. In that spirit I have always believed that God exists, even if at the very least in the way that ideas exist, especially ones that have been around as long as religion.

One of my favorite thinkers is Carl Jung, who recognized this very well. He held that to dislocate the religious drive one must replace it with something else. He held that to most this came in the form of the state, with state processions and "hoopla" carrying many times a fervor rivaling the religious processions of old. Modern positive atheism replaces this drive with a similar fervor for science. Indeed I have seen this fervor demonstrated here an elsewhere, a sentiment that science can give us virtually everything. And so, the feeling of providence by a deity is dislocated and replaced with a feeling of provident by science, or the state. I'm sure some atheists may feel offended by that, but I have seen too many instances of atheists demonstrating a reverence for science that is every bit as intense as the reverence I have seen amongst the religious. I think most honest atheists, however, will probably acknowledge this.

Science and religion have always had their little disagreements, but in the last 200 years or so, there is a schism between the two that was not always the case. Battle lines have been drawn between science and faith, with political lines being drawn right over them. This is unfortunate, because we're not moving forward as a country or society. We're stagnating, maybe even falling backwards. Today we don't see people observing their religious freedoms (including the freedom not to be) and being happy to have them. Instead, we see theists and atheists competing with one another over what gets taught in schools, how much legal protection unborn life has, how marriage is defined, etc. The result of this is that more and more Americans are finding it impossible to live their lives without either being swept up into the conflict, or giving up and losing all interest in any sense of civic duty or awareness.

Blah blah blah blah. I guess I went on a rant.

 

[HUGGY]

of course the Believers know there will only be one undividable group left and living who will be the subject of the Final Judgement - as the death of the last decenter will be the reason for the Final gathering.

AND THAT'S NOT ALL !!!

If you gather NOW... we will double the number of gatherers !!!!!

All you have to do is pay the extra shipping costs of the second gatherer !!!!

Actually Huggy, everyone, all of humanity puts ourselves under judgment.
As you can even see on these threads and forums.

We compare perceptions, and if one person hangs another person or group,
people respond by hanging that person by their own words.

This is just human nature to do this, to learn by comparing experiences
and perceptions with others!

The Bible also explains this is why we should focus on removing the
beams (or biases) from our own eyes, before seeing clearly to help
a neighbor remove a splinter.

If you judge others, by your own words and actions, the same shall you be judged.
If you forgive others and seek corrections, you also receive the same graces.
You get what you give, you get the justice you deserve by reaping what you sow.

The Golden Rule applies to all people, the laws of karma or cause and effect.
This is the meaning of universal laws of "equal justice" that all people are under.
The meaning of Jesus as "universal messiah or message" is the coming of the spirit of justice to fulfill these
laws for ALL PEOPLE, so this connects us with Universal Truth which is what
the Kingdom of God represents: going through the process of "salvation
or enlightenment" to establish Justice to establish Truth for all.
Christians receive this spirit of Justice individually, and collectively as all
people embody and embrace the spirit of truth and justice "by conscience"
then all humanity is saved from hellish suffering by becoming unified in spiritual peace and harmony.

This affects all people, we are all engaged in this process, this learning curve on the path to "equal justice" for all people.
Some people are more aware of it than others. But it involves us all the same.

Some people only understand salvation using church laws.
Some people only understand justice using state laws.
Some people see the connection of both with the same spirit of truth and justice fulfilling BOTH paths in harmony.
So we will always have believers under sacred laws of the church
and secular gentiles under civil laws of the state, but as the
universal meaning and spirit of justice fulfills both paths,
then these two will be in harmony where conflicts will be resolved in truth.
So this is what it means when Jesus or Justice governs both folds of the one flock,
the secular gentiles under natural laws and the churched believers under sacred laws.
the two become one in harmony where there is no more division in Christ Jesus,
but agreement in the spirit of "Restorative Justice" which is the meaning that unites all people of every group.

Sounds like Pot Logic to me.

Almost nothing in your post is true.

Only a handfull of us are judged. We U S citizens are judged constantly because of American Exceptionalism. Most of what humans do in this world isn't even noticed let alone judged.

The concept that all religion..philosphy individual humans.....are/is equal in truth is the worst kind of nonsense. It is not true.

 

[emilynghiem]

Sounds like Pot Logic to me.

Almost nothing in your post is true.

Only a handfull of us are judged. We U S citizens are judged constantly because of American Exceptionalism. Most of what humans do in this world isn't even noticed let alone judged.

The concept that all religion..philosphy individual humans.....are/is equal in truth is the worst kind of nonsense. It is not true.

So you ARE judging my statement as NOT TRUE!
You prove this in itself.

We are CONSTANTLY making judgment decisions.
Isn't this board FULL OF THAT???

Do you see equal # of atheists criticizing Christians
and Christians criticizing atheists?

Look on Craigslist under religion.
Look at Backpage.

That's all that is going on over there,
people learn by criticizing others as you just did here!

That's what I'm talking about.

Look at our political system and media: instead of focusing all our energy on
solving problems, most of the statements made in private or in public
are JUDGMENTS and criticisms of OTHER PEOPLE or PARTIES.
That is the majority of these statements going back and forth.
Look at the comments under articles online, where people
constantly state judgments about what they see going on.


[as for all philosophies/religions being equal,
no they are not the same. And I certainly
use the concepts and terms in Buddhism Christianity
and Constitutional laws MORE than I would use
Islam or Confucianism or Hinduism.
But it depends on the audience.

If I am talking with a fellow Constitutionalist
it works more effectively for us to agree on those terms.

If I am talking with a Christian about the Bible,
we need to agree on the terms and meanings using that
as a common frame of reference, or switch to
Constitutional law if that works better.

Any system can be used as "language" for
expressing truth and reaching agreement.
They are not equal or the same because
all of these are different!

Sorry Huggy, it seems we must have been
talking past each other or miscommunicating
what was meant.

I was talking about judging in a different way than what you must have meant.
And I agree that systems are all different so there is no way they can be equal or the same.

 

[newpolitics]

Some day God will deal with the Atheist...

It is the Last Judgment. God stands before the Pearly Gates dividing the people into two groups. To the group on His right He says, "Oh, My true and faithful Atheists, well done! I created the world without any evidence of My existence; indeed, all the evidence led in the opposite direction! I gave mankind the god-like power of reason, and you, noble atheists, used that gift properly and courageously! The false promises of religion did not mislead you; you resisted the lure of fables backed by authority; childish hopes of comfort and salvation did not deter you from uncompromisingly following the path of reason, as you saw it, to its final conclusions. Even ridicule, discrimination and persecution did not daunt you; the talents which I gave you, you used and increased; for your intelligence and courage, for your ability to reject folly and seek wisdom---Welcome! Enter into Eternal Glory!"

Then God turns to the group on His left and says, "You religious fools! You infantile cowards! Through fear you refused to grow up and become adults. You clung to fables and just-so stories. You were unwilling to exercise the intelligence which I gave you as my most priceless gift! No absurdity was too great, no fairy tale too outrageous, provided it gave you childish comfort and the vain hope that no matter what crimes you committed, some Outside Power would reach down and save your unworthy butts! You have wasted and corrupted My gifts! My universe has no place for such as you; I reject you utterly! Into the Lake of Eternal Fire with you, and be consumed!!"
.

Amazing. Very well written, and quite hilarious. Are you a writer? This actually sounded authentic.