Zone1 Catholics (real ones) do NOT go against Scripture or add to it. It's a lie.

[The Irish Ram]

Here is some of the religious dogma that the Bible frowns upon, yet is accepted practice:
St. Canisius published the Hail Mary in his 1555 Catechism with almost the entire final petition: “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners.”
^ That isn't going to change no matter how you try to rephrase it. It's not join us in prayer, or pray with us to the Father. It is inquiring of the dead for a favor.

Isaiah 8:19 Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? < Why?? Why not pray directly to the Father, like Jesus did and taught us to do?
Asking Mary to pray on your behalf, takes your eyes off of God and places them squarely on Mary.

 

[Meriweather]

Here is some of the religious dogma that the Bible frowns upon, yet is accepted practice:
St. Canisius published the Hail Mary in his 1555 Catechism with almost the entire final petition: “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners.”
^ That isn't going to change no matter how you try to rephrase it. It's not join us in prayer, or pray with us to the Father. It is inquiring of the dead for a favor.

The Bible does not frown on prayer. Period. We in the Body of Christ all pray to overcome sin not only in ourselves but in the world.

People who do not see the power of God, the power of Christ, the power of the Body of Christ, the power of the rosary, the power of prayer, and the power of--and in--the Kingdom of God do not belong in the Catholic faith. The criticisms come out of ignorance and these people are best served in one of the Christian Lite denominations who do wish to stay in the foyer of the Kingdom of God, as the awe deeper into the Kingdom is overwhelming. Build the fences that keep the living Body of Christ away; keep the power of prayer (including the rosary) a few miles away; dismiss Mary and the Saints; be one of those who listen carefully but will not understand. Focus on Satan and his demons, on "Rapture" and End Times, thinking this is the better part of Christian belief and faith. And never know or understand the awesomeness that is being missed.

 

[surada]

The Bible does not frown on prayer. Period. We in the Body of Christ all pray to overcome sin not only in ourselves but in the world.

People who do not see the power of God, the power of Christ, the power of the Body of Christ, the power of the rosary, the power of prayer, and the power of--and in--the Kingdom of God do not belong in the Catholic faith. The criticisms come out of ignorance and these people are best served in one of the Christian Lite denominations who do wish to stay in the foyer of the Kingdom of God, as the awe deeper into the Kingdom is overwhelming. Build the fences that keep the living Body of Christ away; keep the power of prayer (including the rosary) a few miles away; dismiss Mary and the Saints; be one of those who listen carefully but will not understand. Focus on Satan and his demons, on "Rapture" and End Times, thinking this is the better part of Christian belief and faith. And never know or understand the awesomeness that is being missed.

Bears repeating.

Focus on Satan and his demons, on "Rapture" and End Times, thinking this is the better part of Christian belief and faith. And never know or understand the awesomeness that is being missed.

 

[ding]

The Bible begs to differ. The only mediator we have is Jesus, the man, who paid our ransom and therefore qualifies for the position. He stands in the gap between God and man.

And has absolutely nothing with what we are discussing. You can't argue the subject so you change the subject.

What does praying with the living achieve that praying to the Father lacks?

 

[ding]

This thread has gone from, praying to, to praying for, to praying with the dead.
How does John the Baptist know when it's time to pray with you? How do you summons him?

Saints are not dead. Do you imagine they are?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

The Bible does not frown on prayer. Period

Jesus said a lot about "improper" prayer

 

[ding]

Jesus said a lot about "improper" prayer

If the act of asking Mary to pray for their soul brings them closer to God how can it be improper?

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus said a lot about "improper" prayer

More than likely the most repetitive Christian prayer is the Lord's prayer.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

More than likely the most repetitive Christian prayer is the Lord's prayer.

It was an OUTLINE, not meant to be endlessly repeated.

If you are a true Christian, God is your literal FATHER. Endless rituals are unnecessary when speaking to your Father.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If the act of asking Mary to pray for their soul brings them closer to God how can it be improper?

And if they think praying to the sun brings them closer to God, how can that be improper?
If the Bible tells us not to pray to the dead, how can praying to the dead be proper?

 

[buttercup]

Endless rituals are unnecessary when speaking to your Father.

Exactly right and it never ceases to amaze me that some people seem to PREFER all the religious mumbo jumbo, which is the very thing that Jesus condemned repeatedly.

The scriptures clearly say that as born again children of God we can approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, there's zero need for adding unbiblical middlemen or unbiblical religious rituals.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Exactly right and it never ceases to amaze me that some people seem to PREFER all the religious mumbo jumbo, which is the very thing that Jesus condemned repeatedly.

The scriptures clearly say that as born again children of God we can approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, there's zero need for adding unbiblical middlemen or unbiblical religious rituals.

Jesus set the perfect example. He simply spoke to His Father as a good son would speak to his father and had confidence that His Father was listening.

 

[buttercup]

Jesus set the perfect example. He simply spoke to His Father as a good son would speak to his father and had confidence that His Father was listening.

Yep, just as He set the example for water baptism as believers, as opposed to infant baptism, which in another thing the RCC and some protestant churches have failed to follow.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If the act of asking Mary to pray for their soul brings them closer to God how can it be improper?

Why do you think Mary is omniscient?
Why are you are giving the dead the attributes of God? God hears our prayers, because He is omniscient. If 100 people pray to Mary at once, can Mary hear all 100 prayers? There isn't one verse that says Mary can even hear 1.

“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
To you we cry, the children of Eve;
to you we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this land of exile.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us;
lead us home at last.

You have given Mary Jesus' attributes. Find any verse in the Bible that says Mary is our advocate. Why make Mary your hope? God and Jesus aren't enough for you?

That prayer would be perfect if you hadn't substituted Mary for Jesus. Jesus leads us home, not the dead. Jesus is our hope. Jesus is our advocate. Jesus gave us life. Cry to Jesus...

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Yep, just as He set the example for water baptism as believers, as opposed to infant baptism, which in another thing the RCC and some protestant churches have failed to follow.

John the Baptist didn't baptize toddlers and infants

 

[The Irish Ram]

unfortunately, some are. I've had some bad experiences with priests who are rude, agitated... uncaring, not exactly what Jesus wants, I'd guess.

Also, there is a lot of heresy in the new church, meaning the church after Vatican II. The worst heresy of all IMO is that all religions lead you to God and Heaven. Did Jesus say that? No, he said that HE is the way, the truth and the life. . that no one goes to the Father except through Him. And I say no one goes to Jesus except through HIS Church, @ least not in a perfect way that is pleasing to God. The original is the Catholic Church, the only one that goes back to the Beginning, to the first century.

Peter started the original Christian church after Christ died. Not in Rome, but in Jerusalem, 300 years before the Catholic church began. He preached there for 15 years before he was arrested. Paul started the Christian churches that Christ addresses in Rev.
There was as much heresy in the "Vatican 1" as there is in "Vatican 2". Shall we examine some of the Popes? The Borgia, the Medici Popes?

You don't need a church to go to Jesus, perfectly and pleasingly. Come as you are.

 

[The Irish Ram]

They do not make shit up

Then someone needs to give Jesus a rosary, and tell him he isn't the only mediator we have.
And tell Peter to wake up from his 300 year nap to become the first Pope, and forget that he started the original Christian church in Jerusalem hundreds of years before there was a Catholic church. That throwing money in a pool can absolve you of sin. That selling indulgences works. And tell Paul that he is wrong about going straight up to Heaven when you die, instead of some secret place called Purgatory...

 

[The Irish Ram]

Bears repeating.

Focus on Satan and his demons, on "Rapture" and End Times, thinking this is the better part of Christian belief and faith. And never know or understand the awesomeness that is being missed.

Ephesians 6:12 For our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, and against spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.​

^ Because that is where the the fight is!
And there is more written about the end times and how to recognize that time than any other time in history, including Christ's visitation. There is actually a blessing given by God for understanding the era we are in.

Knowledge doesn't remove awesomeness of belief and faith. It enhances it.

 

[ding]

And if they think praying to the sun brings them closer to God, how can that be improper?
If the Bible tells us not to pray to the dead, how can praying to the dead be proper?

You should focus more on your relationship with God than you do with concerning yourself with religious dogma. Your arguments are straw-men of your own making. No one is creating false idols. I'm not discussing praying to the sun. I'm discussing praying to God and your bearing false witness to that practice.

 

[ding]

Why do you think Mary is omniscient?
Why are you are giving the dead the attributes of God? God hears our prayers, because He is omniscient. If 100 people pray to Mary at once, can Mary hear all 100 prayers? There isn't one verse that says Mary can even hear 1.

“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
To you we cry, the children of Eve;
to you we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this land of exile.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us;
lead us home at last.

You have given Mary Jesus' attributes. Find any verse in the Bible that says Mary is our advocate. Why make Mary your hope? God and Jesus aren't enough for you?

That prayer would be perfect if you hadn't substituted Mary for Jesus. Jesus leads us home, not the dead. Jesus is our hope. Jesus is our advocate. Jesus gave us life. Cry to Jesus...

I think all the saints can hear our prayers to God. Why do you believe they can't? Are they not in communion with God?