Zone1 Catholics do NOT believe that their good works are what saves them! Another myth Protestants believe

Many of the most Moral folks I know are non-religious and some of the most immoral scumbags I’ve ever seen have been members of the clergy.,
Moral folk are in all walks of life. So are immoral folk. Saying you can find someone immoral in clergy is a no-brainer. Saying atheists are mostly moral--also a no-brainer. What is your point?
 
Moral folk are in all walks of life. So are immoral folk. Saying you can find someone immoral in clergy is a no-brainer. Saying atheists are mostly moral--also a no-brainer. What is your point?
I would alternatively suggest that a VERY SMALL portion of our Society (and any of its subgroups) are actually truly Moral and Proper to any large degree. My point was that Morality is a totally separate and disconnected concept from religion.
 
My problem has been their continued preaching of the obviously false narrative of a loving, caring GOD, who wants what’s best for His “children” but abandons them in their moments of greatest need. That’s why I walked away from organized religion… the message is hollow and empty.
God is loving and caring. From this truth it appears people think they should be able to demand what they want from God and He should supply it. All in the name of "love".

I will agree that religion should be better teachers of what we can reasonably expect of God--and in identifying God's gifts to us and how to best use them.
 
I would alternatively suggest that a VERY SMALL portion of our Society (and any of its subgroups) are actually truly Moral and Proper to any large degree. My point was that Morality is a totally separate and disconnected concept from religion.
So is singing, but most religious services have singing. Singing can also be found in bars and gambling casinos. Morality and singing are both parts of religion, but no one needs religion to sing and be moral.

Religious faith is about learning to know God, learning to love Him and learning to love other people. It is learning to create the best possible version of self as possible.
 
God is loving and caring. From this truth it appears people think they should be able to demand what they want from God and He should supply it. All in the name of "love".

I will agree that religion should be better teachers of what we can reasonably expect of God--and in identifying God's gifts to us and how to best use them.
I am, and always have been, strongly focused in ROI. If I’m investing my time, money and energy into something, I expect a return on that investment; and I expect it in both the short and long term. If I’m not getting it, I’m out; and I don’t give second chances.

I started out with a negative ROI the moment I was conceived and my genetic makeup was determined. I was screwed from the start. I only “invested” in religion because it was enforced upon me by my family for 20+ years. My father’s illness and death were just the last straw for a disenfranchisement that had been building for several years.
 
Praying to Mary gives grace to the soul

She is what all of us should be: a human being without original sin. I'm sure she didn't have much non-original or actual sin either. She was likely tempted to sin at Calvary, seeing how the thugs dealt with her precious son...?

not sure what the ancient Church teaches about that kind of thing
Why should I pray to Mary?

Mary was a virgin who gave birth to Christ. She was not God. She is definitely worth of admiration.
 
I started out with a negative ROI the moment I was conceived and my genetic makeup was determined. I was screwed from the start. I only “invested” in religion because it was enforced upon me by my family for 20+ years. My father’s illness and death were just the last straw for a disenfranchisement that had been building for several years.
I am interested in exactly how/what you invested in religion in that 20+ years and what you expected the return to be?
 
Why should I pray to Mary?

Mary was a virgin who gave birth to Christ. She was not God. She is definitely worth of admiration.
Have you ever asked family or friends to pray with you? Mary is, as are all Christians, a member of the Body of Christ, the family of Christ. Asking Mary to pray with you is no different from asking anyone else to pray with you.
 
am interested in exactly how/what you invested in religion in that 20+ years and what you expected the return to be?
As I said, I come from an extremely “churchy” family. My mother was a parochial school teacher and spent 50+ years as a church musician (organist), music director, choir director, accompanist, etc…. Her father was a minister for 60+ years. Most of her family held positions in the church. My father’s family was highly religious as well, though more at the lay person level (ushers, greeters, choir members, church officers, etc…).

I spent more time at church and church related functions than anywhere other than school and my home as a child. I was involved at pretty much every functional level a youth can be (Sunday school, hours, youth ministries, acolyte [altar boy], Confirmation, scripture reader, etc…) in addition to attending services at least weekly. My middle bro was ordained as a Lutheran minister about 18 months ago.

As an adult I became an usher, greeter, communion assistant, scripture reader, acolyte, church officer, Stewardship committee chairperson, etc.. I was likely on a path to being the youngest Elder in the 135+ history of the Congregation. I was also active in financially supporting the congroand maintaining the physical proptof the congregation.

All of this before I turned 24 years old.

What did I expect? Not much. Maybe a slight averaging out of the highs and lows in life. Maybe catching a break or two with my physical, mental and emotional medical issues. Something like that.
 
Nope, Mary is a nobody. No need to pray to her when you can pray to Jesus.

not for the crucifiers ...

for their recollection 30 years prior to the advent of the 1st century events for a birth having not the liest relevancy than for a phony story to enhance their skewed version of a religion that never existed till they made it up in the 4th century.

- not though from the heavens, mary never sinned, her purity was their example for the ensuing events that followed. she and joseph lived as one together, never intending or desiring matrimony and lived happily ever after.
 
Have you ever asked family or friends to pray with you? Mary is, as are all Christians, a member of the Body of Christ, the family of Christ. Asking Mary to pray with you is no different from asking anyone else to pray with you.
I can agree with asking Mary to pray with you. However, Catholics often pray TO Mary.



Question:​

Why we should pray to mother Mary?

Answer:​

Why Pray to Mary? Because Jesus has given us his Blessed Mother as ourgreat spiritual mother (REV. 12:17), a heavenly advocate who intercedes for us.

Revelation 12:17

New International Version

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
 
I believe it's the whole "say two hail marys and call be in the morning" thing people don't buy.
I don’t see a big difference between that and what Protestants teach.

Dont serial killers and pedophiles go to heaven simply by accepting Jesus as their personal savior?
 
What did I expect? Not much. Maybe a slight averaging out of the highs and lows in life. Maybe catching a break or two with my physical, mental and emotional medical issues. Something like that.
I had no real physical, mental, emotional or medical issues. Looking back, it appears I had no expectations of anyone other than myself. I had high expectations there, but I can say I had no expectations of God. Well...maybe one. I was still pre-school when I decided that like the heroes of the Old Testament, I wanted to see/hear God. Still at an age I told my parents everything, I told them I was going to find God. They laughed fondly and said that God didn't do things like that any more. I said nothing to them, but I was determined that if God did it once, He could very well do it again.

My older brother was being taught the Catholic Catechism--the one with questions: Q. Why did God make me? A. To know Him, love Him, and serve Him. So I got to work (so-to-speak). I had what I needed--expectations for myself.

My family did go to Church; I went to Catholic school, but as far as getting involved in actual Church activities...nothing there for me. That was alright. There were plenty of ways to serve outside of Church, and I read every children's Bible I could get my hands on to better know God.

I had higher expectations of myself than I had of God, but then, as we already established I did not need God--I just wanted to get to know Him. I see you worked even harder, and it seems perhaps by necessity as you had fair expectations of God? In coming to know God, I would never ask for any of what you mentioned, because in my experience it would be like trying to squeeze water from a rock. A stream gives water readily, but try putting your head underwater in that stream, and one quickly learns while providing water, a stream does not provide air.

What I wish organized religion taught was more in line with what God readily showers upon all, what He does not, and how long God takes to carefully provide the solution to a 'right' request. Maybe it needs to dwell more on what God expects from us, than what we might expect from God?
 
you are speaking for a 4th century document, c-bible that was written with an agenda - servitude to higher authorities instilled by worship for a false messiah.

the 1st century events were a reflection of the prescribed religion of antiquity, the resurgence of liberation theology, self determination those people involved were ordained by the heavens as their examples.

mary was not a sinner - till she would sin of her own accord, that never happened and is rare but viable that made possible the initial setting for the 1st century heavenly events.

- not true of that claim being made by the others that culminated in the untimely and unjust crucifixion of jesus and those also that held fast to their beliefs that were not included in the c-bible - written by the very crucifiers that altered the heavenly events for their own self made purposes and has been the true confluence between the heavens and humanity.
Jesus was a false Messiah? Mary did sin she was born into the same sin all of us are except Jesus
 
Jesus was a false Messiah? Mary did sin she was born into the same sin all of us are except Jesus
you are speaking for a 4th century document, c-bible that was written with an agenda - servitude to higher authorities instilled by worship for a false messiah.

no, mary never sinned, is why she was notable for the heavenly aspiration for those of the 1st century ...

were jesus a messiah which they never claimed, provide their had written testimonial otherwise - they never reflected the crucifiers religion of servitude, christianity - and died for the same beliefs, liberation theology, self determination of those others who knew the true heavenly mission the religion of antiquity provided for their remission to paradise.
 
So often I hear many accuse good Christians of trying to save themselves by their works, but not realizing that works are required of us. Works are not what saves us but they are required before the Lord will grant his saving grace into the kingdom of heaven. Often the following verse is used to justify the pointing of the finger:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This verse does teach that we are not saved by works, but it doesn't say that works are not required of us. If only they would include verse 10 with the quoted verse, it would make more sense.

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This verse tells us quite clearly that we are created unto good works and that God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Could it be any clearer? God expects us to do good works. One of the first works we should do and always be engaged in is the work of repentance. Jesus taught:

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

If we don't repent, Jesus taught the following:

Luke 13:3,5
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

The repentance does not save us but it is required before the Lord will grant his grace upon us. This is the same with all the commandments of God. We are to strive and keep them and by so doing, the Lord will grant his grace upon us. Another commandment besides repentance is that we are to love one another.

John 15:10_12
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

If we look back at Ephesians 2;8 it tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. But to have a true faith one must have good works. The apostle James taught:

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This verse tells us that without works, our faith is dead. We must do good works to have a true faith. The works nor the faith are not what saves us, but they are required before the saving grace of Jesus Christ will come upon us. Jesus requires that we exercise a true faith before he will grant his grace upon us. So, does this mean that we are partially saved by our good works? NO! Without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, we could do all the works we could ever do and we would still be unprofitable servants.

Mosiah 2:21
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

So even after all we can do, we are still saved by grace. Understanding this, read again Ephesians 2:8-10 and it will make much more sense than to tear down those who do good works:

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
Moral folk are in all walks of life. So are immoral folk. Saying you can find someone immoral in clergy is a no-brainer. Saying atheists are mostly moral--also a no-brainer. What is your point?
disagree: It cannot be shown, at least not to all of us, that atheists are mostly moral.

They are not IMO
 
So often I hear many accuse good Christians of trying to save themselves by their works, but not realizing that works are required of us. Works are not what saves us but they are required before the Lord will grant his saving grace into the kingdom of heaven. Often the following verse is used to justify the pointing of the finger:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This verse does teach that we are not saved by works, but it doesn't say that works are not required of us. If only they would include verse 10 with the quoted verse, it would make more sense.

The Bible specifically speaks of us being judged in the End

according to our good deeds.
 
Jesus was a false Messiah? Mary did sin she was born into the same sin all of us are except Jesus

The Church Christ founded teaches otherwise.

I know I won't convince you because Protestants are hard-headed... or.. oops, maybe just set in their ways.
 

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