Capitalism Guarantees Rising Inequality

[dnsmith35]

"Since its origins, socialism has meant the liberation of working people from exploitation.

Really?

What is exploitation?

Is working for a living exploitation?

If so, then who is supposed to support you?

.

How about checking democracy at the work place door?
Does that strike you as exploitative?

"Democracy at Work is a project, begun in 2010, that aims to build a social movement. The movement’s goal is transition to a new society whose productive enterprises (offices, factories, and stores) will mostly be WSDE’s,(worker self-directed enterprises) a true economic democracy.

"The WSDEs would partner equally with similarly organized residential communities they interact with at the local, regional, and national levels (and hopefully international as well). That partnership would form the basis of genuine participatory democracy."

There ARE alternatives, Gipper

About DAW ? What is DAW? | Democracy At Work

Yet no system of that nature has ever succeeded over the long haul. It is the nature of socialism to fail unless dictatorially controlled.

BTW, YOU HAVE NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS I ASKED YOU.

But why not answer a couple of questions:

Who owned the principle production and distribution systems in the USSR?

What is it that Chomsky used as his primary assertion that the USSR did not have socialism?

Who received most of what prosperity there was in the USSR?

 

[dnsmith35]

George, have you figured out what a socialist economic system will always fail? Just like in the Basque experiment, there comes a time when the cooperative output cannot compete with capitalism in the market place and the "coop" has to widen its horizons and start to live in the capitalist world at some point, or dry up and go away.

 

[georgephillip]

Really?

What is exploitation?

Is working for a living exploitation?

If so, then who is supposed to support you?

.

How about checking democracy at the work place door?
Does that strike you as exploitative?

"Democracy at Work is a project, begun in 2010, that aims to build a social movement. The movement’s goal is transition to a new society whose productive enterprises (offices, factories, and stores) will mostly be WSDE’s,(worker self-directed enterprises) a true economic democracy.

"worker self directed enterprises" Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

That is what the former soviets used to call "bullshitsky".

.

.

Can you say...?

"Mondragon co-operatives are united by a humanist concept of business, a philosophy of participation and solidarity, and a shared business culture. The culture is rooted in a shared mission and a number of principles, corporate values and business policies.[14]

"Over the years, these links have been embodied in a series of operating rules approved on a majority basis by the Co-operative Congresses, which regulate the activity of the Governing Bodies of the Corporation (Standing Committee, General Council), the Grassroots Co-operatives and the Divisions they belong to, from the organisational, institutional and economic points of view as well as in terms of assets.[15]

"This framework of business culture has been structured based on a common culture derived from the 10 Basic Co-operative Principles, in which Mondragon is rooted: Open Admission, Democratic Organisation, the Sovereignty of Labour, Instrumental and Subordinate Nature of Capital, Participatory Management, Payment Solidarity, Inter-cooperation, Social Transformation, Universality and Education.[16]
This philosophy is complemented by four corporate values: Co-operation..."

Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dnsmith35]

How about checking democracy at the work place door?
Does that strike you as exploitative?

"Democracy at Work is a project, begun in 2010, that aims to build a social movement. The movement’s goal is transition to a new society whose productive enterprises (offices, factories, and stores) will mostly be WSDE’s,(worker self-directed enterprises) a true economic democracy.

"worker self directed enterprises" Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

That is what the former soviets used to call "bullshitsky".

.

.

Can you say...?

"Mondragon co-operatives are united by a humanist concept of business, a philosophy of participation and solidarity, and a shared business culture. The culture is rooted in a shared mission and a number of principles, corporate values and business policies.[14]

"Over the years, these links have been embodied in a series of operating rules approved on a majority basis by the Co-operative Congresses, which regulate the activity of the Governing Bodies of the Corporation (Standing Committee, General Council), the Grassroots Co-operatives and the Divisions they belong to, from the organisational, institutional and economic points of view as well as in terms of assets.[15]

"This framework of business culture has been structured based on a common culture derived from the 10 Basic Co-operative Principles, in which Mondragon is rooted: Open Admission, Democratic Organisation, the Sovereignty of Labour, Instrumental and Subordinate Nature of Capital, Participatory Management, Payment Solidarity, Inter-cooperation, Social Transformation, Universality and Education.[16]
This philosophy is complemented by four corporate values: Co-operation..."

Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can say that those who wrote the article believes that. But are you aware that Mondragon Corporation is now competing with global capitalism and is currently using capitalist principles of share holders and is not run by the theoretical utopian concept of socialism as you have been preaching?

Are you also aware that when groups of employees struck for more they were simply thrown out?

You can whine and cry about Mondragon all you want. It is not socialism IAW the typical utopian view. And now that it has joined the capitalist world, it will thrive, but as soon as it throws off the non democratic concept of capitalism it will fail.

Are you aware that workers are fired from the COOP if they do not adequately produce? Are you aware that if thrown out of the COOP they lose their ORIGINAL SHARE INVESTMENT?

You have still failed in giving us a SUCCESSFUL EXAMPLE OF SOCIALISM.

 

[dnsmith35]

George, you really need to look for examples somewhere I have not spent years living. I am personally aware of all of your examples.

 

[crisismangement]

How about checking democracy at the work place door?
Does that strike you as exploitative?

"Democracy at Work is a project, begun in 2010, that aims to build a social movement. The movement’s goal is transition to a new society whose productive enterprises (offices, factories, and stores) will mostly be WSDE’s,(worker self-directed enterprises) a true economic democracy.

"worker self directed enterprises" Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

That is what the former soviets used to call "bullshitsky".

.

.

Can you say...?

"Mondragon co-operatives are united by a humanist concept of business, a philosophy of participation and solidarity, and a shared business culture. The culture is rooted in a shared mission and a number of principles, corporate values and business policies.[14]

"Over the years, these links have been embodied in a series of operating rules approved on a majority basis by the Co-operative Congresses, which regulate the activity of the Governing Bodies of the Corporation (Standing Committee, General Council), the Grassroots Co-operatives and the Divisions they belong to, from the organisational, institutional and economic points of view as well as in terms of assets.[15]

"This framework of business culture has been structured based on a common culture derived from the 10 Basic Co-operative Principles, in which Mondragon is rooted: Open Admission, Democratic Organisation, the Sovereignty of Labour, Instrumental and Subordinate Nature of Capital, Participatory Management, Payment Solidarity, Inter-cooperation, Social Transformation, Universality and Education.[16]
This philosophy is complemented by four corporate values: Co-operation..."

Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can you say Mondragon Corporation is a capitalist enterprise? Are you so ignorant to believe that any Socialist effort ever has been or ever will work? I believe you are and I believe your Utopian view of Socialism is based on crackpot left wing fanatic sites which you read as gospel.

 

[jasonnfree]

Here we go, using the 'authority' of a linguist.

Again, all the other leftists have made that argument before, and the problem is still the same. Name *ONE* socialist based system that didn't confiscate all power under government?

It's part of the system. It's how socialism works.

See the problem you people on the left have, is that you assume that everyone else supports your position, unless they are rich.

That's simply not true. During the 'July Days' Russia 1917, the soldiers and the workers both refused to protest in favor of the Bolsheviks, with some workers protesting AGAINST the Bolsheviks.

Victor Chernov: “Take power, you son-of-a-*****, when it is given to you.”

Tony Cliff: Lenin 2 - All Power to the Soviets (14. The July Days)
Tony Cliffs Vladimir Lenin Chapter 14

See you assume that all the workers automatically support socialism. They don't. You assume we are all against the rich wealthy capitalists. We're not.

It reminds me of the Union story I think I mentioned in this thread somewhere (if not I can look up the references again).

I mentioned how the United Auto Workers union (UAW), arranged a meeting with the German Auto Workers Union. The UAW assumed that German Unions were just like them, trying to 'stick it to the man' and attack the company, and all the nonsense.

When the German Unions realized what the UAW wanted to do to German auto plants in the US, they completely broke off talks. The German workers are PRO-Company. Not anti-company.

Workers Against Lenin: Labour Protest and the Bolshevik Dictatorship
By Jonathan Aves
On sale today on Amazon!
Workers Against Lenin: Labour Protest and the Bolshevik Dictatorship (International Library of Historical Studies, 6): Jonathan Aves: 9781860640674: Amazon.com: Books

Shameless promotions of education to the ignorant.

Paraphrase from Page 179.
Lenin claimed the biggest threat was the Worker's Opposition Union, and the Democratic Centralist Group. The biggest critic of the Communist part was Shliapnikov (say that 5 times fast), who has support from the workers trade Union, Metal workers union, and was supporting adoption of a market system.

Market system.... where prices floated, and people made profit. Sounds like Free-market Capitalism. Well of course Lenin was against that. He had to fight those evil capitalist supporting workers.

Lenin had no choice but to oppose the people. The entire movement and the whole communist party was built on destroying the Capitalist system. The moment he allowed the workers to choose Capitalism, it would slowly undermine the foundation of his entire movement.

This is why every true Socialist system around the world, turns to dictatorship sooner or later. The people do not support socialism, and never have, and never will. You might get some incremental movement, but eventually when true socialism is adopted, people oppose it.

"Here we go, using the 'authority' of a linguist."

First convince me you know as much about socialism as Chomsky

"When the world's two great propaganda systems agree on some doctrine, it requires some intellectual effort to escape its shackles.

"One such doctrine is that the society created by Lenin and Trotsky and molded further by Stalin and his successors has some relation to socialism in some meaningful or historically accurate sense of this concept.

"In fact, if there is a relation, it is the relation of contradiction."

The Soviet Union Versus Socialism, by Noam Chomsky

When you quote Noam Chomsky, the linguist who believes he knows everything about everything, you need to recognize that he as a linguist really knows little about anything besides linguistics.

I over looked one reference to Sutton, who once worked at the same place as Sowell. It is a shame what Sowell understood did not rub off on Sutton. If it had, Sutton would not be making such sweeping comments of which he in completely incomparable to Sowell.

Chomsky started out a poor man. His net worth is probably in the Mitt Romney range. Evidence that Chomky knows a little more than just linguistics.

 

[Contumacious]

Really?

What is exploitation?

Is working for a living exploitation?

If so, then who is supposed to support you?

.

How about checking democracy at the work place door?
Does that strike you as exploitative?

"Democracy at Work is a project, begun in 2010, that aims to build a social movement. The movement’s goal is transition to a new society whose productive enterprises (offices, factories, and stores) will mostly be WSDE’s,(worker self-directed enterprises) a true economic democracy.

"worker self directed enterprises" Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

That is what the former soviets used to call "bullshitsky".http://www.lewrockwell.com/2009/06/karen-de-coster/who-will-tell-the-people/

.

.

 

[jasonnfree]

"worker self directed enterprises" Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

That is what the former soviets used to call "bullshitsky".

.

.

Can you say...?

"Mondragon co-operatives are united by a humanist concept of business, a philosophy of participation and solidarity, and a shared business culture. The culture is rooted in a shared mission and a number of principles, corporate values and business policies.[14]

"Over the years, these links have been embodied in a series of operating rules approved on a majority basis by the Co-operative Congresses, which regulate the activity of the Governing Bodies of the Corporation (Standing Committee, General Council), the Grassroots Co-operatives and the Divisions they belong to, from the organisational, institutional and economic points of view as well as in terms of assets.[15]

"This framework of business culture has been structured based on a common culture derived from the 10 Basic Co-operative Principles, in which Mondragon is rooted: Open Admission, Democratic Organisation, the Sovereignty of Labour, Instrumental and Subordinate Nature of Capital, Participatory Management, Payment Solidarity, Inter-cooperation, Social Transformation, Universality and Education.[16]
This philosophy is complemented by four corporate values: Co-operation..."

Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can you say Mondragon Corporation is a capitalist enterprise? Are you so ignorant to believe that any Socialist effort ever has been or ever will work? I believe you are and I believe your Utopian view of Socialism is based on crackpot left wing fanatic sites which you read as gospel.

Who certifies what is crackpot left wing? Social Security and Medicare were socialist efforts that seem to have worked pretty well. I don't know of anybody on the right that has ever refused to take advantage of their benefits once they are eligible. Two anti socialists, Ayn Rand and Friedrich Hayek logged on to these programs when they were in need of help with money and health care. Where were their anti socialism friends in the free market libertarian world when they needed help? These friends probably gave them a ride to the socialist security office to apply.
p.s. and their free market friends probably charged them gas money for this "free" ride.

 

[kaz]

Social Security and Medicare were socialist efforts that seem to have worked pretty well. I don't know of anybody on the right that has ever refused to take advantage of their benefits once they are eligible

We're forced to pay into it our whole careers then we take the chicken feed we get at retirement, and that's an argument for what exactly?

If someone robs you with $100 in your wallet, and they take out a $20 and give it to you before they leave, taking that means you weren't robbed? You should turn it down or you consented to the robbery?

Your point is ... pointless ...

 

[georgephillip]

How about checking democracy at the work place door?
Does that strike you as exploitative?

"Democracy at Work is a project, begun in 2010, that aims to build a social movement. The movement’s goal is transition to a new society whose productive enterprises (offices, factories, and stores) will mostly be WSDE’s,(worker self-directed enterprises) a true economic democracy.

"worker self directed enterprises" Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

That is what the former soviets used to call "bullshitsky".http://www.lewrockwell.com/2009/06/karen-de-coster/who-will-tell-the-people/

.

.

Your link:

"William Greider, author of Who Will Tell the People?, has affirmed the magazine’s totalitarian agenda in a recent article for The Nation called 'The Future of the American Dream.'

"In this article, Greider outlined a plan for a form of centrally planned 'soft' tyranny that he refers to as the right to 'engage more expansively the elemental possibilities of human existence.'"

Greider's article mentions a redefinition of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." He's saying the ancient threats of scarcity and deprivation have been eliminated, and collectively Americans should take a deep breath and reconsider what it means to be rich.

Where's the tyranny, soft or otherwise?

 

[georgephillip]

Social Security and Medicare were socialist efforts that seem to have worked pretty well. I don't know of anybody on the right that has ever refused to take advantage of their benefits once they are eligible

We're forced to pay into it our whole careers then we take the chicken feed we get at retirement, and that's an argument for what exactly?

If someone robs you with $100 in your wallet, and they take out a $20 and give it to you before they leave, taking that means you weren't robbed? You should turn it down or you consented to the robbery?

Your point is ... pointless ...

Not if you've obtained that $100 by stealing from your workers or bribing rich-***** politicians for favorable tax and trade policies.

Hope you get that point REAL soon

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

"Here we go, using the 'authority' of a linguist."

First convince me you know as much about socialism as Chomsky

"When the world's two great propaganda systems agree on some doctrine, it requires some intellectual effort to escape its shackles.

"One such doctrine is that the society created by Lenin and Trotsky and molded further by Stalin and his successors has some relation to socialism in some meaningful or historically accurate sense of this concept.

"In fact, if there is a relation, it is the relation of contradiction."

The Soviet Union Versus Socialism, by Noam Chomsky

When you quote Noam Chomsky, the linguist who believes he knows everything about everything, you need to recognize that he as a linguist really knows little about anything besides linguistics.

I over looked one reference to Sutton, who once worked at the same place as Sowell. It is a shame what Sowell understood did not rub off on Sutton. If it had, Sutton would not be making such sweeping comments of which he in completely incomparable to Sowell.

Chomsky started out a poor man. His net worth is probably in the Mitt Romney range. Evidence that Chomky knows a little more than just linguistics.

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American left.

 

[kaz]

Social Security and Medicare were socialist efforts that seem to have worked pretty well. I don't know of anybody on the right that has ever refused to take advantage of their benefits once they are eligible

We're forced to pay into it our whole careers then we take the chicken feed we get at retirement, and that's an argument for what exactly?

If someone robs you with $100 in your wallet, and they take out a $20 and give it to you before they leave, taking that means you weren't robbed? You should turn it down or you consented to the robbery?

Your point is ... pointless ...

Not if you've obtained that $100 by stealing from your workers or bribing rich-***** politicians for favorable tax and trade policies.

Hope you get that point REAL soon

LOL, I always know when you know you're losing because that's when you go to the Marxist rhetoric...

 

[Chris]

When you quote Noam Chomsky, the linguist who believes he knows everything about everything, you need to recognize that he as a linguist really knows little about anything besides linguistics.

I over looked one reference to Sutton, who once worked at the same place as Sowell. It is a shame what Sowell understood did not rub off on Sutton. If it had, Sutton would not be making such sweeping comments of which he in completely incomparable to Sowell.

Chomsky started out a poor man. His net worth is probably in the Mitt Romney range. Evidence that Chomky knows a little more than just linguistics.

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American left.

What did liberals do that was so offensive to the conservatives? Liberals got women the right to vote. Liberals got African-Americans the right to vote. Liberals created Social Security and lifted millions of elderly people out of poverty. Liberals ended segregation. Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. Liberals created Medicare. Liberals passed the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act. What did Conservatives do? They opposed them on every one of those things. So when you try to hurl that label at my feet, ‘Liberal,’ as if it were something to be ashamed of, something dirty, something to run away from, it won’t work, because I will pick up that label and I will wear it as a badge of honor. - Lawrence O’Donnell Jr.

 

[Chris]

From 1941 to the 1960's we had high taxes on the rich and high wages. The taxes were invested in education and infrastructure, and the high wages created consumer demand.
Now we have low taxes for the rich and low wages, and 23% of total income goes to the top 1%.
70% of our economy is consumer demand, so too much money in too few hands is starving our economy of demand. We need to raise the minimum wage and tax capital gains as income.

 

[Contumacious]

"worker self directed enterprises" Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

That is what the former soviets used to call "bullshitsky".http://www.lewrockwell.com/2009/06/karen-de-coster/who-will-tell-the-people/

.

.

Your link:

"William Greider, author of Who Will Tell the People?, has affirmed the magazine’s totalitarian agenda in a recent article for The Nation called 'The Future of the American Dream.'

"In this article, Greider outlined a plan for a form of centrally planned 'soft' tyranny that he refers to as the right to 'engage more expansively the elemental possibilities of human existence.'"

Greider's article mentions a redefinition of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." He's saying the ancient threats of scarcity and deprivation have been eliminated, and collectively Americans should take a deep breath and reconsider what it means to be rich.

Where's the tyranny, soft or otherwise?

You know, wait until you get marry and have a family, they try to force your teenagers to accept your vision and guidance....


"Marxists like Greider have no problem being forthcoming about the need to redefine, revamp, or redistribute in order to accomplish their agenda of redistribution and equality of outcome. Human lives are never individual — they should be collectively assembled and shaped into some form that best suits the grandiose ideals of the visionary Philosopher Kings"

.

 

[crisismangement]

"Here we go, using the 'authority' of a linguist."

First convince me you know as much about socialism as Chomsky

"When the world's two great propaganda systems agree on some doctrine, it requires some intellectual effort to escape its shackles.

"One such doctrine is that the society created by Lenin and Trotsky and molded further by Stalin and his successors has some relation to socialism in some meaningful or historically accurate sense of this concept.

"In fact, if there is a relation, it is the relation of contradiction."

The Soviet Union Versus Socialism, by Noam Chomsky

When you quote Noam Chomsky, the linguist who believes he knows everything about everything, you need to recognize that he as a linguist really knows little about anything besides linguistics.

I over looked one reference to Sutton, who once worked at the same place as Sowell. It is a shame what Sowell understood did not rub off on Sutton. If it had, Sutton would not be making such sweeping comments of which he in completely incomparable to Sowell.

Chomsky started out a poor man. His net worth is probably in the Mitt Romney range. Evidence that Chomsky knows a little more than just linguistics.

Actually it means nothing. Noam convinced some left wing fanatics that he understood Socialism, he doesn't. Then he sold all of his left wing propaganda to unsuspecting left wing fanatics and made big bucks. He was also university professor in linguistics which also brought him big bucks. In other subjects he is a wanna be, not an actual expert in anything but linguistics.

 

[crisismangement]

Can you say...?

"Mondragon co-operatives are united by a humanist concept of business, a philosophy of participation and solidarity, and a shared business culture. The culture is rooted in a shared mission and a number of principles, corporate values and business policies.[14]

"Over the years, these links have been embodied in a series of operating rules approved on a majority basis by the Co-operative Congresses, which regulate the activity of the Governing Bodies of the Corporation (Standing Committee, General Council), the Grassroots Co-operatives and the Divisions they belong to, from the organisational, institutional and economic points of view as well as in terms of assets.[15]

"This framework of business culture has been structured based on a common culture derived from the 10 Basic Co-operative Principles, in which Mondragon is rooted: Open Admission, Democratic Organisation, the Sovereignty of Labour, Instrumental and Subordinate Nature of Capital, Participatory Management, Payment Solidarity, Inter-cooperation, Social Transformation, Universality and Education.[16]
This philosophy is complemented by four corporate values: Co-operation..."

Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can you say Mondragon Corporation is a capitalist enterprise? Are you so ignorant to believe that any Socialist effort ever has been or ever will work? I believe you are and I believe your Utopian view of Socialism is based on crackpot left wing fanatic sites which you read as gospel.

Who certifies what is crackpot left wing? Social Security and Medicare were socialist efforts that seem to have worked pretty well. I don't know of anybody on the right that has ever refused to take advantage of their benefits once they are eligible. Two anti socialists, Ayn Rand and Friedrich Hayek logged on to these programs when they were in need of help with money and health care. Where were their anti socialism friends in the free market libertarian world when they needed help? These friends probably gave them a ride to the socialist security office to apply.
p.s. and their free market friends probably charged them gas money for this "free" ride.

Medicare and Social Security are insurance programs forced on the people by the government. Ask all the elderly in New York City or Chicago, or even the Mayo clinic how well that works for them? Medical providers in those areas turn down medicare on a continuous basis. Since the government forced the people to pay those premiums you consider them using what they bought and paid for somehow justification for them to not collect the benefits they paid for? How much of an idiot are you?

 

[crisismangement]

Social Security and Medicare were socialist efforts that seem to have worked pretty well. I don't know of anybody on the right that has ever refused to take advantage of their benefits once they are eligible

We're forced to pay into it our whole careers then we take the chicken feed we get at retirement, and that's an argument for what exactly?

If someone robs you with $100 in your wallet, and they take out a $20 and give it to you before they leave, taking that means you weren't robbed? You should turn it down or you consented to the robbery?

Your point is ... pointless ...

He is obviously brain dead.