Cancel Russians as a people/justification of war crimes/ Hypocrisy

[iansolyn]

I recently talked to an acquaintance of mine from Russia, who claims that this war is right and to bomb Ukrainian cities because they have been bombing Donbas for 8 years and oppressing Russians. An amusing fact was the denial of any crime by the Russian army, claiming for example that Bucha was a fake, explaining why Russian soldiers would kill, torture, and rape citizens. In Russia, probably everyone thinks that only Americans commit war crimes, and if you give them the facts, they immediately begin to justify the actions of the army, saying that not everything is so unambiguous, they did not just kill civilians, or start talking nonsense that they allegedly deserved it.
Many people in Russia say that collective responsibility is wrong because citizens in Russia have nothing to do with it and it is unfair to impose sanctions against the people, but independent sources say 80 percent of Russians support the war. This means that everyone holds the position that it is okay to kill civilians, after all the Americans did it in Vietnam or Iraq, so we can do it too, but they claim that they are fighting against Nazis or Nationalists or Fascists (it does not matter to them) on Ukrainian soil, and this is different. I believe that such people should be kept in isolation because they have demonstrated their inhumanity. Even former Nazis rejected their ideology when they learned what Hitler did to other peoples, and here people support it by calling for drowning Ukrainian children, killing men, and raping Ukrainian women.

 

[Godboy]

In Russia, probably everyone thinks that only Americans commit war crimes

"Only"? Do you have examples of Americans committing war crimes? You make it sound like we commit these crimes all the time.

 

[whitehall]

Funny how nobody criticized Bill Clinton for bombing Yugoslavia when he was caught with his pants down.

 

[Augustine_]

I recently talked to an acquaintance of mine from Russia, who claims that this war is right and to bomb Ukrainian cities because they have been bombing Donbas for 8 years and oppressing Russians. An amusing fact was the denial of any crime by the Russian army, claiming for example that Bucha was a fake, explaining why Russian soldiers would kill, torture, and rape citizens. In Russia, probably everyone thinks that only Americans commit war crimes, and if you give them the facts, they immediately begin to justify the actions of the army, saying that not everything is so unambiguous, they did not just kill civilians, or start talking nonsense that they allegedly deserved it.
Many people in Russia say that collective responsibility is wrong because citizens in Russia have nothing to do with it and it is unfair to impose sanctions against the people, but independent sources say 80 percent of Russians support the war. This means that everyone holds the position that it is okay to kill civilians, after all the Americans did it in Vietnam or Iraq, so we can do it too, but they claim that they are fighting against Nazis or Nationalists or Fascists (it does not matter to them) on Ukrainian soil, and this is different. I believe that such people should be kept in isolation because they have demonstrated their inhumanity. Even former Nazis rejected their ideology when they learned what Hitler did to other peoples, and here people support it by calling for drowning Ukrainian children, killing men, and raping Ukrainian women.
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The Russian people should be vilified. Just because there have been some anti-war protests there doesn't mean anything. Anti-war protests accomplished nothing here during the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions, because a deep rooted christian nationalism demanded more bloodshed. We are seeing the same thing in Russia. It's not just the government. The rot starts with the people.

 

[iansolyn]

"Only"? Do you have examples of Americans committing war crimes? You make it sound like we commit these crimes all the time.

First of all, I'm conveying the Russian position that if Americans did it, then we can do it too. Secondly, you can just google America's War Crimes.

 

[iansolyn]

The Russian people should be vilified. Just because there have been some anti-war protests there doesn't mean anything. Anti-war protests accomplished nothing here during the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions, because a deep rooted christian nationalism demanded more bloodshed. We are seeing the same thing in Russia. It's not just the government. The rot starts with the people.

The problem there is exactly in the power and propaganda, they consider Putin almost as the Messiah and any problem whether it is a low standard of living or something else, they will blame anyone but their dictator. That is why most of them support Putin's actions to kill the "Fraternal" people, in their opinion.

 

[iansolyn]

The problem there is exactly in the power and propaganda, they consider Putin almost as the Messiah and any problem whether it is a low standard of living or something else, they will blame anyone but their dictator. That is why most of them support Putin's actions to kill the "Fraternal" people, in their opinion.

The funny thing here is that they don't even consider their relatives from Ukraine as people from the war now, saying that everything they say about the bombing of sooty houses, etc., is all untrue, because they tell the whole truth on TV, and on TV they say that missiles only hit the military positions of Ukro-Bender.

 

[Godboy]

First of all, I'm conveying the Russian position that if Americans did it, then we can do it too. Secondly, you can just google America's War Crimes.

Then i suppose Ukraine doesnt need us dirty war criminals on their side. After November we will just pack up our shit and go.

 

[whitehall]

Harry Truman used an (illegal) executive order to send Troops to Korea and mismanaged the mission for three years so that we lost an estimated 35,000 to 50,000 American lives. LBJ used a faked "crisis" to send Troops to Vietnam and set the rules so that we could win every battle and still lose the freaking war. Shit happens and you need to deal with it.

 

[Mushroom]

I recently talked to an acquaintance of mine from Russia, who claims that this war is right and to bomb Ukrainian cities because they have been bombing Donbas for 8 years and oppressing Russians.

Here is the biggest problem with that opening statement.

The people there are not "Russians", they are Ukrainian. They had a chance to go to Russia when the USSR broke up, and many times since then. But they remained, therefore they are not Russian anymore.

That to me makes about as much logical sense as if Mexico decided to attack California, stating that they did not like the way they were treating "Mexicans" there. Same thing, the "Mexicans" in California are not Mexicans, they are Americans. Most having been there for generations.

And the attacks in Donbas was started by Russian Separatists. Largely formed and equipped by Russia. So once again, it is like Mexico arming and training a "Mexican Liberation Army" in California, then complaining that after they started attacking the people and government of California, that California and the US dared to attack them in return.

They can't have it both ways. Now if they are all upset about the treatment of Russian Separatists, they are more than welcome to open their borders and allow them all to emigrate to Russia. But you don't create a separatist army in another country, then demand that because it exists you have a right to take over that territory.

 

[AZrailwhale]

First of all, I'm conveying the Russian position that if Americans did it, then we can do it too. Secondly, you can just google America's War Crimes.

The US doesn’t commit war crimes. it goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid killing or injuring civilians. In Afghanistan and Iraq, US forces couldn’t even RETURN fire if it endangered civilians.

 

[iansolyn]

The US doesn’t commit war crimes. it goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid killing or injuring civilians. In Afghanistan and Iraq, US forces couldn’t even RETURN fire if it endangered civilians.

I don't want to denigrate the U.S. Army, as I believe it is the strongest and best trained army in the world, but can you remind me why Julian Assange was jailed? Or the Highway of Death or the killing of 24 civilians in Haditha is not America either. They have their crimes, but it was not commonplace and the perpetrators were also held accountable in those wars and no one called for the killing of civilians. Here the Russians are calling for genocide, justifying it by saying that the American army committed its crimes during the wars, too. But no one in Russia will go to jail for Butcha, just as they did not go to jail for the mass murder in Aldy during the war in Chechnya.

 

[iansolyn]

Then i suppose Ukraine doesnt need us dirty war criminals on their side. After November we will just pack up our shit and go.

Take away the battle mosquitoes, too, because the Russians claim you'll be spreading them with drones.

 

[Litwin]

Americans committing

move back to omsk ivan , your lovers need you

 

[Litwin]

Harry Truman

 

[Litwin]

 

[iansolyn]

Russian Separatists,

 

[AZrailwhale]

I don't want to denigrate the U.S. Army, as I believe it is the strongest and best trained army in the world, but can you remind me why Julian Assange was jailed? Or the Highway of Death or the killing of 24 civilians in Haditha is not America either. They have their crimes, but it was not commonplace and the perpetrators were also held accountable in those wars and no one called for the killing of civilians. Here the Russians are calling for genocide, justifying it by saying that the American army committed its crimes during the wars, too. But no one in Russia will go to jail for Butcha, just as they did not go to jail for the mass murder in Aldy during the war in Chechnya.

The "highway of Death" was a legitimate military action, the US attacked a retreating enemy force. That was certainly no worse than the attacks on German troops fleeing the Falaise Pocket in WWII, or German attacks on retreating French and British troops in France in 1940. Assange was jailed because he violated his oath to keep classified material secret, that's a simple crime and one that must be taken seriously. As for the Haditha killings, they were very much an exception to the rule. However Urban Asymmetrical Warfare is often messy with innocents being blamed for the conduct of others. A reasonable person would have to assume that the people in that house knew there was a IED planted in front of it and did nothing to warn the Marines who were wounded and killed by the device. They had some culpability for the actions of their fellow Iraqis that violated the Rules of War and Geneva Conventions. That doesn't excuse the actions of the Marines.

 

[ESay]

Here is the biggest problem with that opening statement.

The people there are not "Russians", they are Ukrainian. They had a chance to go to Russia when the USSR broke up, and many times since then. But they remained, therefore they are not Russian anymore.

That to me makes about as much logical sense as if Mexico decided to attack California, stating that they did not like the way they were treating "Mexicans" there. Same thing, the "Mexicans" in California are not Mexicans, they are Americans. Most having been there for generations.

And the attacks in Donbas was started by Russian Separatists. Largely formed and equipped by Russia. So once again, it is like Mexico arming and training a "Mexican Liberation Army" in California, then complaining that after they started attacking the people and government of California, that California and the US dared to attack them in return.

They can't have it both ways. Now if they are all upset about the treatment of Russian Separatists, they are more than welcome to open their borders and allow them all to emigrate to Russia. But you don't create a separatist army in another country, then demand that because it exists you have a right to take over that territory.

This reasoning doesn't fit well if you try to apply Russian logic to Ukrainian issue. Russian propaganda narrative is that Ukraine is an artificial state that confines swathes of land that is naturally and historically Russian.

Ukrainians for them are a mixture of true Russians and Poles. Or more correctly, there are two types of Ukrainians. The first type is 'right' Ukrainians, that embrace Russian culture, and want close ties with Russia.

The second type is 'wrong' Ukrainians, that don't want to have nothing in common with Russia, brainwashed by Western propaganda, banderites and neo-Nazis.

The goal of Russian state is to gather all historically Russian lands, help 'right' Ukrainians who live on Russian lands that happened to become Ukrainian by mistake and political games only.

 

[Mushroom]

but can you remind me why Julian Assange was jailed?

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but he was not in the military. In fact, he is not even an American. So what he has to do with this, I have absolutely no idea.

And yes, the "Highway of Death.". You know how that started, right? The Iraqi forces were retreating from Kuwait, with a huge amount of stolen property and hostages. The Air Force attacked the vehicles at the front of the convoy, to stop it in its tracks. However, mixed in with all of those vehicles were a hell of a lot of military equipment, that continued to fire on them. And it continued even later, as when Coalition ground forces arrived the next day, they were once again engaged by Iraqi forces.

In fact, most of the estimated 10,000 that were in the convoy survived because they simply escaped into the desert. Only around 300 or so died, those were primarily Republican Guard who continued to fight until killed.

So what exactly should they have done? Not respond when being fired upon?