Zone1 Can you find the Flaw in Atheist Speaker Christopher Hitchens' Logic Here.

[alang1216]

I'd be happy if you didn't change what I wrote to something you could attack.

Because then I wouldn't have to correct you like three times.

No fun when the shoe is on the other foot. I guess that is me choosing to be immoral and opting for an 'eye for an eye'.

 

[Hafar1014]

God has told me nothing.


I everyone does it, that makes it human.

And now you are an anti-Christian piece of shit attacking Christianity. By your logic what I just wrote would be moral because of the context of having to defend my faith from your attacks. By my logic, what I wrote was immoral. I can't even claim it was the lesser of two evils. I guess I'll just have to admit to being immoral on this specific occasion. The beauty of all of this is that God gave me free will to choose between doing good and doing evil, right? And according to your theology, it doesn't matter what I do, right? Because I'll end up in exactly the same place either way, right?

Youre clueless regarding morals and thats clear. Your thinking is concrete categorical. That explains a lot. I never attacked Christianity I question its dogma stolen from the Jews which I have every right to question. Today we call that plagiarism.

 

[Hafar1014]

That's a great question. We have free will to do either. I'm good with people following an eye for an eye as long as they don't claim what they are doing is moral because it's not. The highest standard is to turn the other cheek. There are practical reasons why turning the other cheek is the highest standard. An eye for an eye leads to predictable surprises as all normalizations of deviance are wont to do. Turning the other cheek doesn't have those surprises. But let me put it in terms you might understand, becoming what one hates is not becoming or without consequences.

Isn't it great how Christ's theology is superior to the religious misconceptions of ancient Israelites?

Jesus never said turn the other cheek He said if you strike on the right cheek( the assumption is backhand slap for a slave) then turn the other cheek. What that means in Jewish is take your best shot because Im going to kick your ass.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

The Greeks had the Greek Gods. Many gods. Jews came up with 1 god. Gentiles saw Jewdaoism and wanted to join but it's not that easy so they made up a much easier religion to join. Just believe the unbelievable stories, put money in the pot and get baptized. Pretty much. It is a spin off of Jewdaoism. And Jewdaoism proficized a messiah would come but the jews, who were supposedly there and saw it, say he was not the messiah.

So I find it funny people in Greece, Mexico, India, and everywhere else bought the story. Would you buy that story today if someone told it to you?

Missionaries for Misfits

Only if I wanted to elevate my ego by pretending I'm a partner with a Supernatural Power. That'll show those who didn't respect me who's the real boss around here!

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

No sir.

That is not even an attempt to find the flaw in Hitchen's logic.

I award you no points.

Theism Makes People Bossy. QED.

If your post is pointless, how can you have any points to give?

 

[EdwinAMartin]

Some think 'religion' is hardwired into the brain. Empathy certainly is, given how long it takes humans to be able to fend for themselves, and even then they still need a clan or a tribe. People who lack empathy rarely survive long, except in urban societies and being born in a aristocratic caste protected from the consequences of their lack.

 

[Meriweather]

Do I? I only know what was recorded, usually decades or centuries after the event. I don't always believe what people tell me today.

Could it be, seldom believe? I truly wish I could help. While I've never had a "crisis" of faith, I did experience great confusion after an experience of God that was perfect/complete love--not of just me, but of all. My experience did not relate to--was not at all like--the Old Testament portrayal/perspective of God. Either the Old Testament was wrong, or I was wrong, and I could not believe either was. My study of the Old Testament went nowhere until I met up with an atheist Jew whose first language was Hebrew, where everything came together. That was when I began urging people to first seek and find God--and then study the Bible.

Belief, faith, trust, love may well be beyond you. Perhaps try acceptance. Accept that, down through the ages, people have met up with God and/or have experienced the love of God. Accept it is possible. No belief, no faith--nothing but acceptance, and see if that might present a different perspective.

 

[alang1216]

Belief, faith, trust, love may well be beyond you. Perhaps try acceptance. Accept that, down through the ages, people have met up with God and/or have experienced the love of God. Accept it is possible. No belief, no faith--nothing but acceptance, and see if that might present a different perspective.

I think the 'love of God' is relatively recent invention. Pagans were transactional, you wanted something from the gods, you gave them something in return. Business, not love. Jews, for a long time, were similar in that you followed the rules and good things will happen to you. It wasn't until Jews met Ahura Mazda that the concept of a loving God appeared.

AI Overview

The claim that the concept of a loving, universally benevolent God only appeared in Judaism after contact with Zoroastrianism (and its deity Ahura Mazda) is a subject of significant scholarly debate, though many experts agree that Zoroastrianism heavily influenced the evolution of Jewish theology during and after the Babylonian captivity (6th century BCE)

The Historical Context (The Exile)

• Before the Babylonian Exile (586–538 BCE), Jewish theology was largely monolatristic or polytheistic, focusing on Yahweh as a national, often punitive or jealous deity rather than an universally loving God.
• When the Persians (under Cyrus the Great, a Zoroastrian) conquered Babylon, they allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem. This period of contact introduced new ideas.
  Fabrizio Musacchio +4

Zoroastrian Influence on Jewish Theology
Scholars suggest that several aspects of post-exilic Judaism and Christianity may have been influenced by Zoroastrianism:

• A "Loving" Creator: Ahura Mazda is a benevolent creator, embodying truth, goodness, and light. While earlier Jewish texts focused on God's power, later prophetic books increasingly emphasize a compassionate, loving God.
• Cosmic Dualism (Good vs. Evil): Zoroastrianism introduced a strong, structured dualism—Ahura Mazda (Good) vs. Angra Mainyu (Evil). This may have evolved the Jewish view of a limited "satan" (an accuser) into a powerful, adversarial Devil.
• Afterlife and Judgment: The concepts of a final judgment, heaven, hell, and the resurrection of the dead became more prominent in Judaism during the Second Temple period (after contact with Persia).
• Messianism: The idea of a messiah or savior figure (Saoshyant in Zoroastrianism) who will ultimately defeat evil and restore the world influenced later Judeo-Christian eschatology.

Nuance in the Claim

• Debate over Origin: While many scholars agree that contact with Persia shaped later Jewish thought (especially apocalyptic literature), some argue that these developments could have arisen independently within Judaism.
• Different Conceptions: Although Zoroastrianism features a good god, Ahura Mazda is generally seen as a god of supreme wisdom and order, sometimes acting as an impersonal force of good rather than the highly personal, covenant-focused God of the Old Testament.
• Pre-existing Love: The Hebrew Bible does contain early passages expressing God's love (e.g., in the Pentateuch), but the systematized theology of universal love, a clear afterlife, and a supreme, wholly good divine being fighting a "devil" became significantly more prominent after the Persian period.

In summary, it is highly likely that contact with Zoroastrianism acted as a catalyst that accelerated the transformation of Jewish theology from a nationalistic, punitive focus toward a more universal, loving, and dualistic concept of God.

 

[Meriweather]

In summary, it is highly likely that contact with Zoroastrianism acted as a catalyst that accelerated the transformation of Jewish theology from a nationalistic, punitive focus toward a more universal, loving, and dualistic concept of God.

What has this to do with your own lack of belief/acceptance of God? It makes it sounds like you believe that Jews were the only people on the planet who were touched by God's presence, by God in our midst. I am betting God touched the lives of people in many tribes where the experiences never made into print.

Do we ever come to know any person or being all at once? Our best friends are kept close, we keep in touch, and they can still surprise us.

But yes, I understood/understand Zoroastrianism (and many more ancient beliefs, religions, myths). At the moment I am more interested in the present you and your own understanding and acceptance of God. First, your experience, then the reading/research of the experiences of others.

 

[Hafar1014]

I think the 'love of God' is relatively recent invention. Pagans were transactional, you wanted something from the gods, you gave them something in return. Business, not love. Jews, for a long time, were similar in that you followed the rules and good things will happen to you. It wasn't until Jews met Ahura Mazda that the concept of a loving God appeared.

AI Overview

The claim that the concept of a loving, universally benevolent God only appeared in Judaism after contact with Zoroastrianism (and its deity Ahura Mazda) is a subject of significant scholarly debate, though many experts agree that Zoroastrianism heavily influenced the evolution of Jewish theology during and after the Babylonian captivity (6th century BCE)

The Historical Context (The Exile)

• Before the Babylonian Exile (586–538 BCE), Jewish theology was largely monolatristic or polytheistic, focusing on Yahweh as a national, often punitive or jealous deity rather than an universally loving God.
• When the Persians (under Cyrus the Great, a Zoroastrian) conquered Babylon, they allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem. This period of contact introduced new ideas.
  Fabrizio Musacchio +4

Zoroastrian Influence on Jewish Theology
Scholars suggest that several aspects of post-exilic Judaism and Christianity may have been influenced by Zoroastrianism:

• A "Loving" Creator: Ahura Mazda is a benevolent creator, embodying truth, goodness, and light. While earlier Jewish texts focused on God's power, later prophetic books increasingly emphasize a compassionate, loving God.
• Cosmic Dualism (Good vs. Evil): Zoroastrianism introduced a strong, structured dualism—Ahura Mazda (Good) vs. Angra Mainyu (Evil). This may have evolved the Jewish view of a limited "satan" (an accuser) into a powerful, adversarial Devil.
• Afterlife and Judgment: The concepts of a final judgment, heaven, hell, and the resurrection of the dead became more prominent in Judaism during the Second Temple period (after contact with Persia).
• Messianism: The idea of a messiah or savior figure (Saoshyant in Zoroastrianism) who will ultimately defeat evil and restore the world influenced later Judeo-Christian eschatology.

Nuance in the Claim

• Debate over Origin: While many scholars agree that contact with Persia shaped later Jewish thought (especially apocalyptic literature), some argue that these developments could have arisen independently within Judaism.
• Different Conceptions: Although Zoroastrianism features a good god, Ahura Mazda is generally seen as a god of supreme wisdom and order, sometimes acting as an impersonal force of good rather than the highly personal, covenant-focused God of the Old Testament.
• Pre-existing Love: The Hebrew Bible does contain early passages expressing God's love (e.g., in the Pentateuch), but the systematized theology of universal love, a clear afterlife, and a supreme, wholly good divine being fighting a "devil" became significantly more prominent after the Persian period.

In summary, it is highly likely that contact with Zoroastrianism acted as a catalyst that accelerated the transformatio

Zoroastrianism is nothing like Judaism. Its dualism Judaism is absolute monotheism

 

[sealybobo]

Some think 'religion' is hardwired into the brain. Empathy certainly is, given how long it takes humans to be able to fend for themselves, and even then they still need a clan or a tribe. People who lack empathy rarely survive long, except in urban societies and being born in a aristocratic caste protected from the consequences of their lack.

Yea but many serial killers have family they love. You can have empathy for YOUR child but not for your neighbors.

Religion is hardwired because we are superstitious. Despite logic, we still think "THERE MUST BE A GOD or creator when honestly, no. There doesn't have to be a creator. But you are hard wired to think there's got to be. And if that's not enough, he visited 2026 years ago, give or take 200 years. In the most remote place on earth. And Moses' story. Oh yea that really happened.

I'd more believe aliens visited Moses. That's more believable. But yet most human's believe in nonsense because of wishful thinking.

Let me leave you all with words of wisdom

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

 

[Hafar1014]

Yea but many serial killers have family they love. You can have empathy for YOUR child but not for your neighbors.

Religion is hardwired because we are superstitious. Despite logic, we still think "THERE MUST BE A GOD or creator when honestly, no. There doesn't have to be a creator. But you are hard wired to think there's got to be. And if that's not enough, he visited 2026 years ago, give or take 200 years. In the most remote place on earth. And Moses' story. Oh yea that really happened.

I'd more believe aliens visited Moses. That's more believable. But yet most human's believe in nonsense because of wishful thinking.

Let me leave you all with words of wisdom

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

Serial killers have zero empathy for anyone even their own families. The human brain is hard wired for spiritual thinking.

 

[Hafar1014]

Yea but many serial killers have family they love. You can have empathy for YOUR child but not for your neighbors.

Religion is hardwired because we are superstitious. Despite logic, we still think "THERE MUST BE A GOD or creator when honestly, no. There doesn't have to be a creator. But you are hard wired to think there's got to be. And if that's not enough, he visited 2026 years ago, give or take 200 years. In the most remote place on earth. And Moses' story. Oh yea that really happened.

I'd more believe aliens visited Moses. That's more believable. But yet most human's believe in nonsense because of wishful thinking.

Let me leave you all with words of wisdom

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

Sagan was correct we dont end when the body dies.

 

[sealybobo]

Serial killers have zero empathy for anyone even their own families. The human brain is hard wired for spiritual thinking.

Nope. I watch all the shows. One of my favorites is I lived with a Psychopath. Daddy loves their little girl.

How about biker gang members? I'm talking about the ones who Trump loves. Those guys have kids they love but they've murdered lots of people.

Tony on the Soprano's loved his kids.

I can't remember the movie but it was about this girls father. She got on set and talked to the actor playing her father. He has killed enough people to be considered a serial killer. He loved her. Sorry you are wrong.

How about guys who went to Viet Nam who did very horrible things to Viet Nam women. They go home and love their moms and sisters and wives don't they?

 

[sealybobo]

Sagan was correct we dont end when the body dies.

You mean this?

The Law of Conservation of Energy states that the total energy in an isolated system remains constant, as energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed from one form to another

That doesn't mean you will remember you after you die.

This has me thinking. How were you created? If energy can neither be created or destroyed, only transformed from one form to another, then what were you before you were born? Do you remember that time? So then you won't remember now after you transform again.

Am I wrong?

 

[Hafar1014]

Nope. I watch all the shows. One of my favorites is I lived with a Psychopath. Daddy loves their little girl.

How about biker gang members? I'm talking about the ones who Trump loves. Those guys have kids they love but they've murdered lots of people.

Tony on the Soprano's loved his kids.

I can't remember the movie but it was about this girls father. She got on set and talked to the actor playing her father. He has killed enough people to be considered a serial killer. He loved her. Sorry you are wrong.

How about guys who went to Viet Nam who did very horrible things to Viet Nam women. They go home and love their moms and sisters and wives don't they?

I have had them as patients. They are very good at faking empathy. Their brains dont have that capacity. The diagnosis is anti social personality
Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) in the DSM-5 is defined by a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, beginning by age 15 and continuing into adulthood. Diagnosis requires at least three of seven behaviors, including deceitfulness, impulsivity, irritability/aggression, and lack of remorse, along with evidence of conduct disorder.
Psychiatry Online +2

Key DSM-5 Diagnostic Criteria

• Pattern: Disregard for and violation of others' rights since age 15.
• Age: Must be at least 18 years old.
• Evidence of Conduct Disorder: Onset before age 15.
  • Symptoms (3 or more required):
    1. Failure to conform to social norms/laws.
    2. Deceitfulness (lying, conning others).
    3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
    4. Irritability and aggressiveness (physical fights).
    5. Reckless disregard for safety of self/others.
    6. Consistent irresponsibility (work/financial failure).
    7. Lack of remorse (indifference to harming others).
       
       
       Psychiatry.org +3

Key Characteristics & Context

• Prevalence: Affects 0.6% to 3.6% of adults, with higher rates among men.
• Not Explained By: The behaviors cannot occur exclusively during schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.
• Core Traits: Involves manipulativeness, criminality, and a lack of empathy.

 

[sealybobo]

Some think 'religion' is hardwired into the brain. Empathy certainly is, given how long it takes humans to be able to fend for themselves, and even then they still need a clan or a tribe. People who lack empathy rarely survive long, except in urban societies and being born in a aristocratic caste protected from the consequences of their lack.

"These guys, they do have a love for their mothers," said Joe Pistone, the FBI undercover agent who spent six Mother's Days inside the Bonanno family as jewel thief Donnie Brasco. "They thought nothing of killing. But the respect for their mothers? It was amazing."

 

[Hafar1014]

"These guys, they do have a love for their mothers," said Joe Pistone, the FBI undercover agent who spent six Mother's Days inside the Bonanno family as jewel thief Donnie Brasco. "They thought nothing of killing. But the respect for their mothers? It was amazing."

They arent psychopaths. People can be cruel and evil and they dont have ASPD. TV and movies are never real. I have treated them as patients.

 

[EdwinAMartin]

Let me leave you all with words of wisdom

Still waiting.

 

[sealybobo]

They arent psychopaths. People can be cruel and evil and they dont have ASPD. TV and movies are never real. I have treated them as patients.

I watch real interviews with real psychopaths and real psychologists tell us what we are seeing. The narcissism, parasitic lifestyle, etc. So interesting.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13530014/

I will give you this. The true psychopath doesn't love the people they are using. They are incapable.

I love the ones where the guy killed his whole family then went and turned himself in. He was acting like he felt guilty about it but the psychologists point out how nothing in the way he's acting show that he's feeling remorse about what he did. And the reason he murdered them AND turned himself in is because they were done letting him use them and they were throwing him out. So prison was his only other option.