Woodznutz
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Of course there was sin. God "covered" their sin with an animal sacrifice, which prefigured the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to cover our sins.
Zone1 Can you find the Flaw in Atheist Speaker Christopher Hitchens' Logic Here.
- Thread starter Seymour Flops
- Start date
Genesis 3:23
The Lord God cast him out of the Garden of Eden; henceforth he was to labor tilling the soil from which he had come. When he expelled him, he placed cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden with flaming swords to keep watch over the way to the tree of life.
When both Adam and Eve took the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, they disobeyed God's instruction - becoming "Self Aware" of their nakedness - their "Spiritual Fall". And later, they were physically 'cast out' of the Garden of Eden - an Earthly paradise - and became subject to the physical world around them - enduring labor pains for Eve and physical labor for Adam. That is quite literally, "A Fall from Grace".
In terms of "extending it to humanity as a whole" it's automatic in the sense that humanity was no longer under "God's Grace" as in the days of the Garden of Eden. Humanity would need to balance out their physical world demands while attempting to regain God's grace - through Covenants, teachings of the Prophets and for Christians, through Jesus Christ and his teachings.
In the Books of the Old Testament - the concept of "Hell" is spoken of quite often - but in various ways.
Psalm 107:
They were lifted up to the heavens, then cast down to the depths;
their courage melted away in their plight.
Psalm 71:
Though you have made me see troubles,
many and bitter,
you will restore my life again;
from the depths of the earth
you will again bring me up.
Sheol is also mentioned many times - as a place a person goes to once they pass away.
God also speaks about "Forgiveness of Sins" in Hebrews 8:
I shall forgive them for their wicked deeds,
and I shall remember their sins no more.”
In regards of needing the concept of "Hell" to "force obedience" - that's an old conspiracy theory. God (quite literally) states over and over again the rewards for following his commands and Covenants and the punishments for not following his commands and Covenants - and the punishments stated in the Old Testament are the reason people use the term "Fear of God". There was no "additional concept of Hell" required for "obedience".
For many Christians, finding the Kingdom of God is an amazing reward and the concept of Hell is the idea of "losing something of great value that they once had" The idea alone will create "burning fire and brimstone" within their minds - the agony causing "the gnashing of their teeth". As you can see, the concept of Hell can be both physical and spiritual for many Christians.
Yes it was. Was there a Roman census recorded only in the NT?
Woodznutz
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And, the gospel would be preached "to the nations" through the church that he established first with the descendants of Israel.
I think claiming that a religion practiced then and now required 'correction' discredits Jews and Judaism. And that was exactly your intention. You build up Christianity by discrediting its roots.
"I form the light and create the darkness;
prosperity and disaster depend upon my will;
I, the Lord, do all these things."
-Isaiah 45:7
Looks like Jethro Tull agrees with God.
We do, but the devil is in the details. We don't obsess over it. We focus on life, not death. To us heaven is being eternally united with God. Hell is being eternally separated from God. That's it. That's as far as we go. We don't know our fate and we don't know the fate of others. People like you think about it way more than we do. Scripture isn't about heaven and hell. Scripture is about how to live and how not to live.
And as for God punishing us or threatening us with hell, we don't believe that either. We believe we punish ourselves by hardening our heart such that it cannot tolerate God's love. And if you are not careful, YOU will ask him to remove it because you won't be able to tolerate it either. But make no mistake, it won't be God sentencing you to it. It will be you. And the very same applies to me as well. I am about as far away from being a saint as one can get. And I fully own that when I am immoral, it's by my choice.
You never did tell me why you aren't immoral by choice. Why is that?
I'm not following you. Which stories? And what did you mean by Maybe because Christians (and every other group) have been doing these things since day one?
No, you don't. And Ian Anderson is an idiot if he believes "He who made kittens put snakes in the grass" encompasses or is representative of existence. Apparently God can't exist unless everything is perfect. That's such a dumb argument and it is most certainly is seeing God in the worst possible light. Even you have to admit that.
I believe that because that's what the evidence shows.
What's your point?
Unfortunately for you, you can't make those points when actually walking through the misconceptions Jesus corrected. If you could have, you would have.
Jesus corrected several deeply held religious and social beliefs, primarily targeting legalism, hypocritical leadership, and narrow interpretations of the law. He emphasized inner transformation over outward ritual, taught that love and mercy surpass traditional sacrifices, and declared himself the exclusive, necessary way to salvation rather than relying solely on ritual observance.
Key beliefs Jesus corrected include:
- Legalism vs. Mercy: Jesus corrected the Pharisees' strict, transactional adherence to law, emphasizing that mercy and love are more important than rigid, ritualistic obedience (e.g., healing on the Sabbath).
- The Nature of Leadership: He challenged religious leaders to stop pursuing status and, instead, embrace servant leadership grounded in humility and love, reversing the belief that leaders should be served.
- True Purity: Jesus corrected the belief that external rituals or avoiding certain people (lepers, sinners) made one clean, teaching that true defilement comes from within (the heart).
- Retribution ("Eye for an Eye"): He replaced the common, Old Testament-based understanding of strict retaliation with a radical, new standard of unconditional love, forgiveness, and non-retaliation.
- Exclusivity of Salvation: Jesus corrected the notion that salvation was attained solely by lineage or strict adherence to the Torah, teaching instead that he is the exclusive way to the Father.
- The Kingdom is Local/External: He countered the belief that the kingdom of God was a specific place or political entity to be awaited, teaching that it is "within you"—an internal, spiritual reality.
- The Purpose of Temple Sacrifice: He challenged the commercialization and exploitative nature of Temple sacrifices, signaling that his own sacrifice would fulfill and replace the entire system.
Hafar1014
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Woodznutz
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Jesus Christ is the "root" of Christianity. Judaism was the branches that were broken off and replaced by the engrafting of the house of Israel.
Meriweather
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Does gravity punish you? When the sun goes down, are you punished by darkness? Hell is rejecting existence in the presence of God. Tell me how God has punished you. Or, if you want, tell me how he punished someone you know.
Meriweather
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Has God told you to drive out any inhabitants?
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
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Does doing something make it right?
How is saving their lives and seeing it the lesser of two evils, wrong?
So if we're good we get to be eternally united with God. When we're bad we're eternally separated from God. Sounds like a judgement and then reward or punishment.
Never claimed to be anything more than human.
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