Zone1 Can you find the Flaw in Atheist Speaker Christopher Hitchens' Logic Here.

[ding]

FYI, he has read and studied the entire Bible. ding believes asking difficult questions is playing gotcha.

And yet somehow you still don't believe ancient Israelites used historical events to craft narratives that taught lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice and their relationship with God. So did you really understand what you read? Or did reading the OT lead you to believe the God of Abraham condoned violence, hatred, slavery, oppression and genocide?

 

[ding]

@ding believes asking difficult questions is playing gotcha.

What's the point of your "difficult" questions?

 

[EdwinAMartin]

What's the point of your "difficult" questions?

It just sounds like he's confused and thinks his questions aren't.

 

[Meriweather]

Based on my values since I don't know your single truth.

Come out of moral relativity. Truth is not "your". Truth is not "my". Truth is and stands on its own among everyone.

Since I won't make a decision based on fiction, what i feel is truth is my only option.

No one makes decisions based on fiction, but on experience. It seems to me you are one who forbids yourself to gain that experience.

 

[ding]

It just sounds like he's confused and thinks his questions aren't.

I believe alang1216 wishes to subordinate Christianity but won't openly admit it. So he beats around the bush instead. Case in point... most of his criticisms concern OT passages. Such as the God of Abraham ordering genocide. But in post #231 he defended Judaism by stating, "Judaism was not in need of correcting." He criticizes Christians and gives Jews a hall pass even when he is using Jewish texts to criticize Christians.

 

[EdwinAMartin]

I believe alang1216 wishes to subordinate Christianity but won't openly admit it. So he beats around the bush instead. Case in point... most of his criticisms concern OT passages. Such as the God of Abraham ordering genocide. But in post #231 he defended Judaism by stating, "Judaism was not in need of correcting." He criticizes Christians and gives Jews a hall pass even when he is using Jewish texts to criticize Christians.

The gimmick is to attempt to discredit the orthodoxy so they can claim their own rewrites and fictions are somehow more legitimate than the real ones. Gnostic rubbish is all like that. They can't really do it, since they aren't educated and have no idea that it isn't possible. Too many copies out there to try and fake passages, and over 2,000 years of exegeses and scholarship to get away with it, plus the texts and literary devices used to compose the Gospels themselves have built in safeguards that prevent successful fakery. For the Pentateuch it is more than a millennia more of provenances.

 

[Meriweather]

I believe alang1216 wishes to subordinate Christianity but won't openly admit it. So he beats around the bush instead. Case in point... most of his criticisms concern OT passages. Such as the God of Abraham ordering genocide. But in post #231 he defended Judaism by stating, "Judaism was not in need of correcting." He criticizes Christians and gives Jews a hall pass even when he is using Jewish texts to criticize Christians.

Perspective. The New Testament perspective is God as Father. The Old Testament perspective is God as disciplinarian. Can the agreement be both Testaments present God as Counselor? In the Old Testament the perspective is God's actions are seen as a response to wrong-doing, consequences humans brought down on themselves. Atheists in modern Western culture don't see the story this way. They holler about God permitting slavery. What I find interesting about this is that the story of Exodus with the Israelites, not owning slaves, but instead are the slaves. God's action is to free the slaves. Once free, the Israelites complained that freedom was harder than being slaves. They quarreled because many wanted to go back. God's guidance was from slavery into freedom.

Then the Israelites wanted government and kings. When that failed, they were on the look-out for another great political king like David. What was once more received was guidance out of worldly (obey-the-rulers) kingdoms into the freedom in the kingdom of God. This is the true difference between Judaism and Christianity. When Christians are focused on kingdom living, what Presidents, Legislatures, and Judges are doing are of lesser importance (note I did not say of no importance).

 

[Hafar1014]

Judaism is a distortion of God's Old Covenant laws. Jesus is the fulfillment of those laws.

Jesus is an idol. Christianity is built on the threat of hell to force obedience. Judaism is base on choosing to believe not surrendering to a threat. There is no original sin or fall of man.

 

[alang1216]

Read the gospels. Jesus corrected the Jewish contemporary understanding of the Messiah.

Jesus fundamentally challenged the first-century Jewish expectations of the Messiah by reframing the role from a political, conquering king to a suffering servant. Instead of liberating Israel from Roman oppression, Jesus emphasized a spiritual kingdom, focused on suffering, and rejected expectations of an immediate, material restoration.

Key ways Jesus challenged existing beliefs:

• Suffering vs. Conquering: While many Jews expected a military leader to destroy enemies and establish a lasting kingdom, Jesus taught that the "Son of Man" must suffer, be rejected by leaders, and die.
• Spiritual Kingdom: Jesus defined his reign as spiritual (the "kingdom of God") rather than a physical, earthly kingdom.
• Inclusivity and Authority: He broke social norms by interacting with outcasts, healed on the Sabbath, and challenged Temple practices, which differed from the expected strict, legalistic leadership.
• Divine Nature: Jesus' claims to be one with God and to offer salvation were seen as blasphemous by many, rejecting the traditional view that the Messiah would be a human king.

Consequently, many first-century Jews rejected Jesus because he did not fit their established messianic criteria.

Key Bible verses where Jesus challenges existing Messianic beliefs include:

• Mark 8:31 (and Mark 9:31, 10:33-34): Jesus explicitly teaches that the Son of Man must suffer, be rejected, and die—a concept antithetical to the popular expectation of an ever-victorious king.
• John 18:36: Jesus tells Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world," directly contradicting the hope for a nationalistic, earthly liberation.
• Matthew 21:5-11: By entering Jerusalem on a donkey rather than a warhorse, Jesus fulfills Zechariah 9:9 to represent a humble, peaceful Messiah, rejecting the triumphant warrior role.
• John 6:15: After feeding the 5,000, the crowd tries to make him king by force, but Jesus withdraws, refusing to conform to their political agenda.
• Matthew 13:24-33: Through the parables of the wheat/weeds and the mustard seed, Jesus teaches that the Kingdom of God is a slow, quiet, spiritual growth, not a violent, instant overthrow of wicked rulers.
• John 4:25-26: When a woman mentions the expected Messiah, Jesus openly declares himself, but in the context of offering "living water" rather than political freedom.

These passages show a deliberate shift from a "Son of David" who conquers, to a "Son of Man" who redeems through sacrifice.

Read the gospels. Jesus actively validated and fulfilled numerous Old Testament prophecies, affirming them as pointing to his life, death, and resurrection. He frequently cited Scriptures—such as Isaiah 61, Psalm 22, and Daniel—to identify himself as the promised Messiah, explaining that these writings were fulfilled in his ministry.

• Self-Identification: In Luke 4:17-21, Jesus read from Isaiah 61 and declared, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing," directly linking his mission to prophecy.
• Specific Fulfillment: Jesus validated prophecies regarding his birth in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2), ministry, and sacrificial death (Isaiah 53).
• Final Validation: After his resurrection, Jesus told his disciples that everything written about him in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms had to be fulfilled (Luke 24:44).

Ultimately, the Gospels present Jesus as the ultimate authority affirming that Hebrew scriptures predicted his life in minute detail.

I agree, Jesus fundamentally challenged the first-century Jewish expectations of the Messiah by reframing the role from a political, conquering king to a suffering servant. What I disagree with is the term "corrected", implying the Jews were practicing a corrupted version of their faith. Most Jews back then, as most Jews today, would disagree. It is telling that Christianity was built mainly by pagan converts, not by Jews. Saying these pagans knew Judaism better than Jews is idiotic (as you would say).

 

[alang1216]

Perspective. The New Testament perspective is God as Father. The Old Testament perspective is God as disciplinarian. Can the agreement be both Testaments present God as Counselor? In the Old Testament the perspective is God's actions are seen as a response to wrong-doing, consequences humans brought down on themselves. Atheists in modern Western culture don't see the story this way. They holler about God permitting slavery. What I find interesting about this is that the story of Exodus with the Israelites, not owning slaves, but instead are the slaves. God's action is to free the slaves. Once free, the Israelites complained that freedom was harder than being slaves. They quarreled because many wanted to go back. God's guidance was from slavery into freedom.

Then the Israelites wanted government and kings. When that failed, they were on the look-out for another great political king like David. What was once more received was guidance out of worldly (obey-the-rulers) kingdoms into the freedom in the kingdom of God. This is the true difference between Judaism and Christianity. When Christians are focused on kingdom living, what Presidents, Legislatures, and Judges are doing are of lesser importance (note I did not say of no importance).

I think it fair to say that, in the OT, God was the God of the Hebrew people and would reward or punish everyone in the tribe. In Christianity, God is a God of the individual and rewards or punishments are individual ones. It is almost like a whole new theology.

 

[alang1216]

That's funny coming from you considering how much you have criticized the God of the OT. Or did you forget saying God ordered genocide when living beings were in an inconvenient location?

So are you saying that God's actions needed correcting or that the genocides never happened and the Bible needed correcting?

 

[alang1216]

So since YOU believe this means the prophets were wrong, can you show me which prophets were wrong and how they were wrong?

I don't believe it was me who claimed the prophets were wrong, it is you who claim they needed "correcting".

 

[alang1216]

And yet somehow you still don't believe ancient Israelites used historical events to craft narratives that taught lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice and their relationship with God. So did you really understand what you read? Or did reading the OT lead you to believe the God of Abraham condoned violence, hatred, slavery, oppression and genocide?

Some of those historical events involved genocide. Correct?

 

[alang1216]

What's the point of your "difficult" questions?

They are difficult questions for me. Theological beliefs I don't quite understand.

 

[alang1216]

Come out of moral relativity. Truth is not "your". Truth is not "my". Truth is and stands on its own among everyone.

What is this Truth that stands on its own?

 

[alang1216]

I believe alang1216 wishes to subordinate Christianity but won't openly admit it. So he beats around the bush instead. Case in point... most of his criticisms concern OT passages. Such as the God of Abraham ordering genocide. But in post #231 he defended Judaism by stating, "Judaism was not in need of correcting." He criticizes Christians and gives Jews a hall pass even when he is using Jewish texts to criticize Christians.

What does "subordinate Christianity" mean? Jews get no pass from me. They bragged about genocide and blamed it on their god. I disapprove but it was a common behavior at the time.

 

[ding]

I agree, Jesus fundamentally challenged the first-century Jewish expectations of the Messiah by reframing the role from a political, conquering king to a suffering servant. What I disagree with is the term "corrected", implying the Jews were practicing a corrupted version of their faith. Most Jews back then, as most Jews today, would disagree. It is telling that Christianity was built mainly by pagan converts, not by Jews. Saying these pagans knew Judaism better than Jews is idiotic (as you would say).

The first Christians were Jews, not pagans. Here is what Jesus corrected. Argue against these instead of your strawman.

Jesus corrected several deeply held religious and social beliefs, primarily targeting legalism, hypocritical leadership, and narrow interpretations of the law. He emphasized inner transformation over outward ritual, taught that love and mercy surpass traditional sacrifices, and declared himself the exclusive, necessary way to salvation rather than relying solely on ritual observance.

Key beliefs Jesus corrected include:

• Legalism vs. Mercy: Jesus corrected the Pharisees' strict, transactional adherence to law, emphasizing that mercy and love are more important than rigid, ritualistic obedience (e.g., healing on the Sabbath).
• The Nature of Leadership: He challenged religious leaders to stop pursuing status and, instead, embrace servant leadership grounded in humility and love, reversing the belief that leaders should be served.
• True Purity: Jesus corrected the belief that external rituals or avoiding certain people (lepers, sinners) made one clean, teaching that true defilement comes from within (the heart).
• Retribution ("Eye for an Eye"): He replaced the common, Old Testament-based understanding of strict retaliation with a radical, new standard of unconditional love, forgiveness, and non-retaliation.
• Exclusivity of Salvation: Jesus corrected the notion that salvation was attained solely by lineage or strict adherence to the Torah, teaching instead that he is the exclusive way to the Father.
• The Kingdom is Local/External: He countered the belief that the kingdom of God was a specific place or political entity to be awaited, teaching that it is "within you"—an internal, spiritual reality.
• The Purpose of Temple Sacrifice: He challenged the commercialization and exploitative nature of Temple sacrifices, signaling that his own sacrifice would fulfill and replace the entire system.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus is an idol. Christianity is built on the threat of hell to force obedience. Judaism is base on choosing to believe not surrendering to a threat. There is no original sin or fall of man.

Christianity is built on Good News that sins are forgiven, that we live in a redeemed world, that salvation and the kingdom of God is in the reach of all.

Original sin is the human nature all are born with, which is the first step to learning and transcending into the will of God. We are born only with the knowledge of what we want...to be fed, comforted, and taken care of. We cry to communicate our own will. The two-year-old, "No!s" emphasizes what it is we want or do not want, followed by tantrums. Slowly we learn there is more to this world--and for us--than our own will and what we want. It is not so much we learn to subdue our will to God's will, but rather to expand our own will so that it can include the great will of God.

We are going to fail-miss the target-sin as we learn and are guided into managing this more tremendous power of will. These failures, missing the target, sins, are forgiven. We are loved, have been given a redeemed world, and the way of salvation--where all are welcome--and is open to all.

Once more: Anyone who has the need to bash other faiths are insecure in their own faith, having to constantly reassure him/herself that their own faith, religion, denomination is the one. God meets all of us where we are and from there draws us to Himself.

 

[ding]

I think it fair to say that, in the OT, God was the God of the Hebrew people and would reward or punish everyone in the tribe. In Christianity, God is a God of the individual and rewards or punishments are individual ones. It is almost like a whole new theology.

It's not fair to say that. Maybe you aren't reading the OT properly.

Judaism generally views God as a personal God—an active, caring, and relational being involved in history and individual lives, rather than just an abstract, distant force. While God is infinite, transcendent, and incorporeal, He is also understood to be imminent, capable of responding to prayer, and engaging in a covenantal relationship with humanity.

Key Aspects of a Personal God in Judaism:

• Relationship and Covenant: God is seen as a loving creator and "Father" who acts within history, such as the covenant with Abraham and the Exodus.
• Involvement: The divine presence, or Shechinah, is believed to be present and responsive to individual prayers and actions.
• Attributes: God is described as having "personality"—including will, consciousness, and moral character—which allows for a relationship with creation.
• Distinction from Anthropomorphism: "Personal" does not mean God has a physical body; it refers to an inner, knowable, and moral essence rather than a human-like form, explained here on Chabad.

While some philosophical approaches emphasize a more rationalist, distant God, the mainstream Jewish tradition (including, but not limited to, Orthodox and Hasidic views) strongly emphasizes a personal connection.

Do you have any OT verses that show God isn't a personal God? Because these OT verses show the Israelites believe God is a personal God.

Old Testament verses reveal a personal God who actively relates to, rescues, and loves individuals, rather than a distant deity. Key verses highlight God as a provider (Psalm 16:5), protector (Psalm 18:2), and intimately acquainted with his people (Isaiah 43:1), often establishing personal covenants with them.

Key Old Testament Verses Describing a Personal God:

• God as Provider & Partner:
  • Psalm 16:5: "The Lord is the portion of my inheritance and my cup; You support my lot".
  • Genesis 17:7-8: God establishes a personal, everlasting covenant, saying, "I will be their God and they shall be my people".
• God as Protector & Deliverer:
  • Psalm 18:2: "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge".
  • Psalm 27:1: "The Lord is my light and my salvation; Whom shall I fear?".
• God’s Intimate Knowledge & Care:
  • Isaiah 43:1: "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine".
  • Exodus 6:7: "I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God, and you shall know that I am the LORD your God".
• God’s Compassion & Justice:
  • Psalm 146:7-9: Describes God as one who sets prisoners free, lifts up those bowed down, and loves the righteous.

These verses illustrate a God who is actively involved in the lives of His people, providing refuge, and establishing close, lasting relationships.

 

[EdwinAMartin]

I think it fair to say that, in the OT, God was the God of the Hebrew people and would reward or punish everyone in the tribe. In Christianity, God is a God of the individual and rewards or punishments are individual ones. It is almost like a whole new theology.

No. You really need to read the books, and not some crank website you found that you think sounds good.