Zone1 Can you be member of the "White Race" if you have literally a brown skin

[Mortimer]

Just checking a million to one shot . My mother was Bavarian born and bred in a small town called Bretten , nach Karlsruhe .
Cousins ?

What is your other half? Are you white? I mean is your other half like english, scottish, irish, danish, french etc. or african american or something other not white?

 

[Kruska]

Just checking a million to one shot . My mother was Bavarian born and bred in a small town called Bretten , nach Karlsruhe .
Cousins ?

I don't think so - but one never knows. My family dates back to the 13th century - firstly documented in Latvia (then under the Teutonic Order) and from the 14th century onward documented in Bavaria and Bohemia. I wouldn't know if your mother was born in Bavaria - but the town you mentioned Bretten/Karlsruhe lies in today's Baden-Wuerttemberg, now the Western neighboring state of Bavaria - Karlsruhe in e.g. 1715 belonged to the Margrave of Baden-Durlach, quite close to the place where Trumps Papa or Grandpa originates from.

Bretten - lovely town, especially if one is into 16th century framework houses

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Oh and BTW, Kruska is not my real Family-name. However my family and that of the von Kruska are sporadically related throughout some four centuries due to several marriages, the last one in 1855 with one of the von Kruska's daughters and therefore my great grandfather being born in 1856.

 

[Kruska]

That is generally true. Roma also marry typically other Roma, even within the same sub-group like "tinkers marry tinkers" etc. or some witches marry other witch practicers etc. but that is not always the case, but it is a thumb rule, do you say germans do not typically marry other germans? A german would typically not marry a african or middle eastern person, i know that. Especially not german women, would marry an arab or african man. So that is nothing unusual, or only mexican or indian specific.

It certainly isn't the norm - but in so called liberal/leftist or green political family circles, it does happen also in regards to German women marrying Africans or Muslims. Take a look at the players of our "German" national soccer team. Out of 24-26 players I think only 6-7 would qualify as so called Germans. 10-12% of Germany's population aren't typical Germans either.

 

[JoeC]

No more than a white person can be a member of the Black race.

 

[Kruska]

No more than a white person can be a member of the Black race.

I wouldn't be so sure. Are you familiar with Bushman - San people in Southern Africa?
These people have more or less no similarity with the Bantu Blacks that populate Southern Africa. Even their skin is far brighter.

Due to Hitlers obsession with race - loads of 'scientific" studies were undertaken - and they usually all stumbled at the correlation between Europeans aka Whites and Asians.
Since they seem to be inherently mixed due to whatever reason. So the term Indo-Germanic came up.
As such an Indo-Germanic person would classify as being a White and an Asian.
In a second step - what if an Indo-Germanic person intermixes with Blacks aka Bantu? You might get a Bushman-san out of it.

or alternative Theory - humans actually looked like Bushman-san people and on their way to colonize the earth - they split into three distinctive groups, Whites, Asians and Africans - all three basically sharing the same original genes.

Have a look onto a classic Bushman-San - see photo:

 

[Mortimer]

No more than a white person can be a member of the Black race.

Which race would you say then we are? Asian-Indian? "Hindu"?

 

[Kruska]

You've just understood the problem...

Why is a racist or a wanna be Nazi a problem? go fuck those retards and get over it, there is a life to be managed.
You think that it would worry or disturb me, if e.g. a Black person would call me a racist? hell no, it would just proof to me as to how stupid and ignorant that person is.

 

[Mortimer]

Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma

The Roma, also known as ‘Gypsies', represent the largest and the most widespread ethnic minority of Europe. There is increasing evidence, based on linguistic, anthropological and genetic data, to suggest that they originated from the Indian subcontinent, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Kruska]

Which race would you say then we are? Asian-Indian? "Hindu"?

According to historic facts and research ROMA originate from Norther-India - therefore as I stated before they are very similar to Sikhs or those Sikhs that I personally know.
So it's obvious that Roma can revert their ancestry to India. Due to unknown reasons they were driven out of India correlating with the arrival of Muslim rulers in Northern India.

They are first documented in Iran from the 11th century - continuing their trip towards Eastern-Europe. Along their route some of them certainly intermixed with others - especially slaves in eastern Europe - that is where presumably the more whitish Roma started to emerge. Those more tribal or conservative remained within their own clans and kept their Indian looks - just like you.

Very likely those Roma that did not leave India but traveled southwards seeking Hindu refuge - and out of Muslim controlled areas are those refereed to as Sansi.

Sansi, nomadic criminal tribe originally located in the Rājputāna area of northwestern India but expelled in the 13th century by Muslim invaders and now living in Rājasthān state as well as scattered throughout all of India. The Sansi claim Rājput descent, but, according to legend, their ancestors are the Beriya, another criminal caste. Relying on cattle thievery and petty crime for survival, the Sansi were named in the Criminal Tribes Acts of 1871, 1911, and 1924, which outlawed their nomadic lifestyle. Reform, initiated by the Indian government, has been difficult because they are an “untouchable” caste and sell or barter any land or cattle given to them.

Numbering some 60,000 in the early 21st century, the Sansi speak Hindi and divide themselves into two classes, the khare (people of pure Sansi ancestry) and the malla (people of mixed ancestry). Some are cultivators and labourers, although many are still nomadic. They trace their descent patrilineally and also serve as the traditional family genealogists of the Jat, a peasant caste. Their religion is simple Hinduism, but a few have converted to Islam.

Does that help to solve your problem or questions?

 

[Mortimer]

According to historic facts and research ROMA originate from Norther-India - therefore as I stated before they are very similar to Sikhs or those Sikhs that I personally know.
So it's obvious that Roma can revert their ancestry to India. Due to unknown reasons they were driven out of India correlating with the arrival of Muslim rulers in Northern India.

They are first documented in Iran from the 11th century - continuing their trip towards Eastern-Europe. Along their route some of them certainly intermixed with others - especially slaves in eastern Europe - that is where presumably the more whitish Roma started to emerge. Those more tribal or conservative remained within their own clans and kept their Indian looks - just like you.

Very likely those Roma that did not leave India but traveled southwards seeking Hindu refuge - and out of Muslim controlled areas are those refereed to as Sansi.

Sansi, nomadic criminal tribe originally located in the Rājputāna area of northwestern India but expelled in the 13th century by Muslim invaders and now living in Rājasthān state as well as scattered throughout all of India. The Sansi claim Rājput descent, but, according to legend, their ancestors are the Beriya, another criminal caste. Relying on cattle thievery and petty crime for survival, the Sansi were named in the Criminal Tribes Acts of 1871, 1911, and 1924, which outlawed their nomadic lifestyle. Reform, initiated by the Indian government, has been difficult because they are an “untouchable” caste and sell or barter any land or cattle given to them.

Numbering some 60,000 in the early 21st century, the Sansi speak Hindi and divide themselves into two classes, the khare (people of pure Sansi ancestry) and the malla (people of mixed ancestry). Some are cultivators and labourers, although many are still nomadic. They trace their descent patrilineally and also serve as the traditional family genealogists of the Jat, a peasant caste. Their religion is simple Hinduism, but a few have converted to Islam.

Does that help to solve your problem or questions?

That helps, but I knew that already. But some questions I have that white is considered europe, middle east and northafrica but sikhs would be considered asian, i think sikhs and roma have more in common with people west of india then with han chinese or people further southeast like thai or cambodian or something. What do you consider white? You said you consider only central europe as white? Not a kurd for example, in the USA a kurd would be caucasian and white an arab too, a jew too, not only the whiter ashkenazi jews but also typically middle eastern jews. That was my question actually. I knew that roma are not fully and typically european or central european like you said "no one would think you are central european" not even a greek looks typically central european but no one would doubt he is white, i told you the caucasian race and west eurasia includes roma typically?

 

[Kruska]

That helps, but I knew that already. But some questions I have that white is considered europe, middle east and northafrica but sikhs would be considered asian, i think sikhs and roma have more in common with people west of india then with han chinese or people further southeast like thai or cambodian or something. What do you consider white? You said you consider only central europe as white? Not a kurd for example, in the USA a kurd would be caucasian and white an arab too, a jew too, not only the whiter ashkenazi jews but also typically middle eastern jews. That was my question actually. I knew that roma are not fully and typically european or central european like you said "no one would think you are central european" not even a greek looks typically central european but no one would doubt he is white, i told you the caucasian race and west eurasia includes roma typically?

A Greek isn't considered to be a central European - he belongs to the Eastern-European/Balkan group. Hell these fellows have been raped and intermixed for 500 years by the Ottomans - there is nothing Hellenic Greek about them.

You need to differentiate between the geographical term and that of a race or ethnicity.
An Indian is geographically an Asian - further subdivided into the Indian Subcontinent and e.g. Central Asia, south-east-Asia, or the Far-east (the latter would apply to China).
Therefore a Sikh is an Indian - living and has his heritage in Asia, or broken down into living and having his heritage in the Indian sub-continent.

And you or Roma's that look like you are not termed Europeans, nor Whites - but as Hitler coined the term; a member of the Indo-Germanic Race - which for example also includes Iranians. Pakistanis, Afghans - right up to Bangladeshis and Ceylonese. If you refute Hitlers definition then you are an Asian deriving from India.

And since when is some desert dude from e.g. Oman termed White? only according to you - No European would ever term a middle-eastern person as a White. Usually they are all placed in the same cooking pot and referred to as Arabs, the others as Turks, Iranians or Egyptians. And a Kurd's ethnicity belongs to the Iranian group. same goes for most of those inhabiting the Caucasus.

 

[Mortimer]

A Greek isn't considered to be a central European - he belongs to the Eastern-European/Balkan group. Hell these fellows have been raped and intermixed for 500 years by the Ottomans - there is nothing Hellenic Greek about them.

You need to differentiate between the geographical term and that of a race or ethnicity.
An Indian is geographically an Asian - further subdivided into the Indian Subcontinent and e.g. Central Asia, south-east-Asia, or the Far-east (the latter would apply to China).
Therefore a Sikh is an Indian - living and has his heritage in Asia, or broken down into living and having his heritage in the Indian sub-continent.

And you or Roma's that look like you are not termed Europeans, nor Whites - but as Hitler coined the term; a member of the Indo-Germanic Race - which for example also includes Iranians. Pakistanis, Afghans - right up to Bangladeshis and Ceylonese. If you refute Hitlers definition then you are an Asian deriving from India.

And since when is some desert dude from e.g. Oman termed White? only according to you - No European would ever term a middle-eastern person as a White. Usually they are all placed in the same cooking pot and referred to as Arabs, the others as Turks, Iranians or Egyptians. And a Kurd's ethnicity belongs to the Iranian group. same goes for most of those inhabiting the Caucasus.

Why do you get personal at me? I didnt talked about my person but roma as a typical ethnic group, But if you want to talk about my person. I dont think I look that indian, or fully indian. Im 80% Balkan derrived and I dont have Indian haplogroups either. Many Roma do have indian haplogroups and a indian appearance but I personally do not, maybe not clearly central european but I could be "ambigous". Im sure I do not look indian, and no one mistakes me for an "indian" typically.

And I speak about the term in the USA, not Germany. The USA terms people of european, middle eastern and northafrican origins as white, and people of indian origins as asian. That includes I think pakistanis, as asian.

That is me, Im sure I do not look indian, maybe exotic balkan. Or somewhat indian influenced balkan, but not straight out of india like you portray me.

 

[Kruska]

Why do you get personal at me? I didnt talked about my person but roma as a typical ethnic group, But if you want to talk about my person. I dont think I look that indian, or fully indian. Im 80% Balkan derrived and I dont have Indian haplogroups either. Many Roma do have indian haplogroups and a indian appearance but I personally do not, maybe not clearly central european but I could be "ambigous". Im sure I do not look indian, and no one mistakes me for an "indian" typically.

And I speak about the term in the USA, not Germany. The USA terms people of european, middle eastern and northafrican origins as white, and people of indian origins as asian. That includes I think pakistanis, as asian.

That is me, Im sure I do not look indian, maybe exotic balkan. Or somewhat indian influenced balkan, but not straight out of india like you portray me.

You are the one who brought in his personal photo - making it personal, and that original photo with your mother? you didn't look like the one you are posting now.
Anyway in this now presented photo you look just like a couple of Iranians that I am familiar with.

In the original photo you could be as I had stated before be a Mexican and also an Indian - your mother would not stand out in Northern India she would perfectly blend in.
However being of Roma ancestry - concludes that you are of Indian decent - intermixed with I wouldn't know what, other or how many other ethnicity.

And in Germany you wouldn't be considered to be a Central European - and therefore you would not be considered to be a White- independent that the racial term White does not exist in official papers in Germany.
In the USA you would be considered to be a member of the Caucasian group and therefore termed to be a White.

 

[Mortimer]

You are the one who brought in his personal photo - making it personal, and that original photo with your mother? you didn't look like the one you are posting now.
Anyway in this now presented photo you look just like a couple of Iranians that I am familiar with.
However being of Roma ancestry - concludes that you are of Indian decent - intermixed with I wouldn't know what, other or how many other ethnicity.

And in Germany you wouldn't be considered to be a Central European - and therefore you would not be considered to be a White- independent that the racial term White does not exist in official papers in Germany.
In the USA you would be considered to be a member of the Caucasian group and therefore termed to be a White.

The difference is I lost a bit weight, but that is me and different hair cut. The difference between me, my mum and my grandparents for example is that I have a lighter skin then them. It is also obvious in the original photo. A lighter skin alone, makes you look immediately more "White" I have also somewhat different features, I think I resemble them, but Im not their twin obviously. No two people look alike if they are not identical twins.




You could conclude that Im of "indian descent" but I have a bit of another view, Roma to me are not of "indian descent" or not exclusively, they are of various descents, it is usually and everywhere omnipresent "roma the lost indians", "roma the untouchables from india" etc. It is everywhere on YouTube in the media etc. But Im less indian then balkan/southerneasterneuropean/greek/antolian+iranian, im not even fully 20% indian, i do not think i personally with that amount qualify as "indian" and even if you go by deep ancestry like genetic origins, i would expect that that is measured by haplgroups right? Roma have varying haplogroups so they have varying descents, varying origins etc. Why people typically say that some tribes in India are of "Aryan" origin because they are typically R1a? Haplogroup R1a? Right even they are not much different then other Indians, or only slightly by whole genome. That means Roma have various descents/origins not only Indian. Just like Brasilians are not of "Portuguese" origins alone but a fusion of Portuguese, African and Native American. I mean also the culture, because genetics is not the only thing considering identities, identities are complex, and roma have a fusion of various cultures, influences etc. just like in brasilian samba or like that something is african, something is native, etc. the roma music, for example, what roma typically cook, even how they are dressed, their dances, their traditions are not "exclusively indian". Their unique history and cultural experiences are also different then the typical indian experience, Roma history is also older then that of latin america, but we know that latin americans are their own thing not indigenous, but that is not clear for roma, roma are just placed as indians? I mean I do not really care or think india is worse then europe or minor worth, but it is just not true, and the indians i met have stereotypes and prejudices about roma, like being a criminal tribe because there are also criminal tribes in india, being wandering people fortune tellers, petty thieves, beggars, etc. some indians are that too, but majority of indians are of the settled type, that forms the majority and they would typically discriminate roma or similar castes. So I disagree that Im exclusively of "indian descent". Because that is just not true, i have neither indian mtdna nor indian ydna, nor am i mostly indian by genome?

 

[Mortimer]

Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma

The Roma, also known as ‘Gypsies', represent the largest and the most widespread ethnic minority of Europe. There is increasing evidence, based on linguistic, anthropological and genetic data, to suggest that they originated from the Indian subcontinent, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Mortimer]

You are the one who brought in his personal photo - making it personal, and that original photo with your mother? you didn't look like the one you are posting now.

I brought many photos, including group photos, only a few photos were of my family and me. I brought also videos, group photos etc. but it could give the impression im talking about myself when im generally talking about the whole ethnic group. Did you saw the footballers and the videos?

 

[emilynghiem]

An old definition of "gypsy" says they are "dark-skinned caucasian people" i guess caucasian as in white race. Do they have a "Europid appearance eventhough they have a darker skin and hair colour"?

What do Americans think?














My mum, me and my grandparents....

On my birth certificate (from Galveston, 1966), both my parents are listed as born in VIETNAM,
Race or Color = WHITE.

My mother is fair skinned and my father has tan skin.
I assume that since both my parents had higher education
and were considered professional middle class, this was more
like a socioeconomic CLASS distinction, (clearly not based on racial ethnicity such as "European descent").

In countries, such as Egypt I believe, your designation depends on whether
you are born NORTH or SOUTH of a certain boundary line, so it is geographic.

From what I understand of common experiences across different racial groups,
there is a similar tradition of associating the FAIRER skin people with "upper class"
or management class of people who OWN businesses and property and work/live
INDOORS while hiring out the labor to "lower class" workers considered less
valuable and more plentiful "manual laborers" associated with "outdoor work in the field"
by their DARKER skin. So this CLASS association with LIGHT skin/Privileged owner/mgmt class
versus DARK skin/lower "working class" is NOT limited to JUST EUROPEAN/CAUCASIAN,
but is found among ASIAN, LATIN, AFRICAN and NATIVE cultures.

 

[Mortimer]

On my birth certificate (from Galveston, 1966), both my parents are listed as born in VIETNAM,
Race or Color = WHITE.

My mother is fair skinned and my father has tan skin.
I assume that since both my parents had higher education
and were considered professional middle class, this was more
like a socioeconomic CLASS distinction, (clearly not based on racial ethnicity such as "European descent").

In countries, such as Egypt I believe, your designation depends on whether
you are born NORTH or SOUTH of a certain boundary line, so it is geographic.

From what I understand of common experiences across different racial groups,
there is a similar tradition of associating the FAIRER skin people with "upper class"
or management class of people who OWN businesses and property and work/live
INDOORS while hiring out the labor to "lower class" workers considered less
valuable and more plentiful "manual laborers" associated with "outdoor work in the field"
by their DARKER skin. So this CLASS association with LIGHT skin/Privileged owner/mgmt class
versus DARK skin/lower "working class" is NOT limited to JUST EUROPEAN/CAUCASIAN,
but is found among ASIAN, LATIN, AFRICAN and NATIVE cultures.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[cnm]

On my birth certificate (from Galveston, 1966), both my parents are listed as born in VIETNAM,
Race or Color = WHITE.

My birth certificate doesn't have a race or colour for my parents on it. I can't imagine being born in a place where it would have such a thing.

 

[Kruska]

You are turning in circles mate, as I had already stated:

Being of Roma ancestry - concludes that you are of Indian decent - intermixed with I wouldn't know what, other or how many other ethnicity - obviously you also don't know.
In Germany you wouldn't be considered to be a Central European - and therefore you would not be considered to be a White
In the USA you would be considered to be a member of the Caucasian group - since they obviously pack everyone who doesn't identify as an Asian, Black or native Red-Indian into Caucasian.

Skin pigmentation is not necessarily decisive onto a race or ethnic definition, there are also quite dark skinned people amongst e.g. Bavarian's - but there are also distinctive features that designate a Central European, features that you do not share with central Europeans.
And it goes also beyond ethnics - e.g. a German born in Bavaria is automatically registered as a Bavarian - the moment it becomes apparent that this person can't speak Bavarian and doesn't understand certain customs, he is referred to as a migrant Bavarian. and as such not recognized as an authentic Bavarian.

As such even if you are designated as a Caucasian in the USA - an American of Central European heritage will identify himself as a White, but he won't place you into the same group.

You kind of remind me off a Turkish Bavarian I met in the Air-force, born in Bavaria and who spoke fluent one of the Bavarian dialects and knew most of the customs. He is light skinned and he desperately tried to tell everyone - hey I am a Bavarian just like you, look I am eating pork sausage. Well sorry for him he simply isn't an authentic Bavarian. If he would just have carried on his own life - no one would have bothered about him - speaks Bavarian, eats pork sausage and is a decent and funny fellow, right lets go and have a beer.
Okay, I admit the name Mehmet Gökhan wasn't realty helpful in his quest either, nor his features. And if you mix up different dialect words in Bavarian you become "suspicious" in the eyes of an authentic Bavarian.