Can you be a "non-Christian" and still go to heaven?

[Weatherman2020]

God isn't what you want him to be. It's not up to you to decide what he is or if he exists.
And I think any faith should not be taken at face value, or blindly followed. The nice thing about the Trinity is the Holy Spirit. You have to be open to it, and you have to accept it. The Holy Spirit is what directs you, not God. Some call it a conscience.

Sure it is.

No one has ever seen God, no one has ever spoken with God. Some people decided he looked like so old dude. I've decided God doesn't exist, or if he does, he's me.

I did that. It's done. You can't change that.

You decide he does exist, you decide he is a he. That's the human brain doing that, not some knowledge of something outside of humanity.

Look at Christianity. People have decided so well on what is Christianity that there are THREE main forms of it, Orthodox, Catholicism and Protestantism which might as well be call Pick-n'-Mix-ism.

Then within each of these people can't even decide on what the reality is.

You've never talked to God? How sad.

Well, talking to yourself is one of the 10,000 first signs of madness, right?

Yep, you proved it. Your only knee jerk response is discounting what hundreds of millions of us have done.
They have eyes yet do not see......

Oh, so hundreds of millions of people have done something, so it must be right, hey? Well 69 million people voted for Obama, so they must be right, hey?

Honestly, what kind of logic is that? That the kind of twisted crap they're teaching in universities now?

 

[Bonzi]

Both Christians and Non Christians get all pissy and shitty about it.

I'm sure that is NOT the "perfect way" for people to be either way.

 

[mudwhistle]

Yes. I guess I'm just lucky. Nice thing about Christianity is you have more of a choice. In Saudi Arabia you don't. Beheadings are common place. Women need a male escort to go out in public. Marriages are arranged. You can go to prison for blasphemy, which is what you're doing when you say you're God.

Yes, I'd rather have been born a Christian than a Muslim. But I'm glad that I was only slightly forced into Christianity and allowed my own choice too.

But that wasn't the point. The point was that where you are born determines what you "believe", rather than there being this belief system washing around in people's heads.

Plenty of Muslims converted to Christianity.

If you were born in the 1800s must you own slaves? If you were born in the South during reconsruction and Jim Crow must you hate blacks?

Muslims find it difficult to leave their faith, but is any faith that is forced upon you to extremes real?

Yes, some Muslims convert, I think probably more people convert the other way. People do have that choice.

However I find that many people can't accept to convert. To be told that everything you were brought up to believe is false, it kind of hurts people too much for them to be able to change.

Pride can be a terrible sin.

I actually think that pride can be a great thing. Without pride who would care about anything?

It's all about how you use things. Anger can be used positively, and negatively, just like pride and many other attributes.

You're confusing pride with compassion.

 

[mudwhistle]

Both Christians and Non Christians get all pissy and shitty about it.

I'm sure that is NOT the "perfect way" for people to be either way.

Humans tend to get pissy.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Sure it is.

No one has ever seen God, no one has ever spoken with God. Some people decided he looked like so old dude. I've decided God doesn't exist, or if he does, he's me.

I did that. It's done. You can't change that.

You decide he does exist, you decide he is a he. That's the human brain doing that, not some knowledge of something outside of humanity.

Look at Christianity. People have decided so well on what is Christianity that there are THREE main forms of it, Orthodox, Catholicism and Protestantism which might as well be call Pick-n'-Mix-ism.

Then within each of these people can't even decide on what the reality is.

You've never talked to God? How sad.

Well, talking to yourself is one of the 10,000 first signs of madness, right?

Yep, you proved it. Your only knee jerk response is discounting what hundreds of millions of us have done.
They have eyes yet do not see......

Oh, so hundreds of millions of people have done something, so it must be right, hey? Well 69 million people voted for Obama, so they must be right, hey?

Honestly, what kind of logic is that? That the kind of twisted crap they're teaching in universities now?

Yeah, what kind of logic is that? I basically used your "logic". You said I'm discounting what hundreds of millions "have done" supposedly, so because hundreds of millions have done, it must be right, hey?

 

[Bonzi]

Compassion is caring for others
Pride is a feeling about one self

Totally different. How can you confuse the two?

As a Christian, you should be proud of nothing because all that you have and are is because God allows it and/or has given you that ability. The praise (100%) goes to him.

 

[Bonzi]

Both Christians and Non Christians get all pissy and shitty about it.

I'm sure that is NOT the "perfect way" for people to be either way.

Humans tend to get pissy.

... because of pride ...

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, I'd rather have been born a Christian than a Muslim. But I'm glad that I was only slightly forced into Christianity and allowed my own choice too.

But that wasn't the point. The point was that where you are born determines what you "believe", rather than there being this belief system washing around in people's heads.

Plenty of Muslims converted to Christianity.

If you were born in the 1800s must you own slaves? If you were born in the South during reconsruction and Jim Crow must you hate blacks?

Muslims find it difficult to leave their faith, but is any faith that is forced upon you to extremes real?

Yes, some Muslims convert, I think probably more people convert the other way. People do have that choice.

However I find that many people can't accept to convert. To be told that everything you were brought up to believe is false, it kind of hurts people too much for them to be able to change.

Pride can be a terrible sin.

I actually think that pride can be a great thing. Without pride who would care about anything?

It's all about how you use things. Anger can be used positively, and negatively, just like pride and many other attributes.

You're confusing pride with compassion.

No, I'm not.

I don't have to wear a uniform to work. I could go to work in whatever I choose to go to work in. But I choose to go to work in decent clothing because I have pride. I choose to wear decent clothing on the streets, because I have pride.

 

[Weatherman2020]

You've never talked to God? How sad.

Well, talking to yourself is one of the 10,000 first signs of madness, right?

Yep, you proved it. Your only knee jerk response is discounting what hundreds of millions of us have done.
They have eyes yet do not see......

Oh, so hundreds of millions of people have done something, so it must be right, hey? Well 69 million people voted for Obama, so they must be right, hey?

Honestly, what kind of logic is that? That the kind of twisted crap they're teaching in universities now?

Yeah, what kind of logic is that? I basically used your "logic". You said I'm discounting what hundreds of millions "have done" supposedly, so because hundreds of millions have done, it must be right, hey?

It's your right to refuse to acknowledge all of the evidence. But you're insecurity keeps you in these thread topics because you really know better.

 

[Trump.Stamped]

I care about God. I am God, so I care quite a lot, thank you very much.

I'm also a very moral person, I don't need others to tell me what morals I should follow, I have a brain and I use it.

I live my life in the way I deem to be the best way, I care about other people around me, and I put a lot of effort into trying to help others to achieve what it is they want to achieve.

I don't need to be criticized by others simply because I don't accept their make belief.

Anyone who claims to be God probably isn't going to be welcomed into Heaven. Not only do you replace God in your heart, but you have no sense of humility.....which has a tendency to rule your thoughts and actions. Another thing that was stressed in the Gospel was good works alone cannot get you into the kingdom of Heaven. Faith is essential.

I don't believe they were saying they are "The God" - simply that God is in all of us, you can chose to recognize it or not. Church or religion have nothing to do with it, or doesn't have to. I have seen people use church and religion for both great good and great evil.

I don't believe that God put us here to bow down and spend our life worshiping him/her/it.

No, I was saying I am God. God isn't in me.

The point I was making, had anyone bothered to ask, is that God is what people consider to be the thing that controls stuff. I control my life, therefore I am my own God.

Either that or I tell people I'm God because it's hilarious.

Monty Python????

I guess it is, initially I thought it was your senior yearbook picture!

 

[Hawkins]

I have a question for the devout Christians in the house.

I grew up a Lutheran (which I call lazy Catholics) and attended church through High School and college. Once out on my own my wife and I (she did not grow up religious) looked for a church, and we just were not moved. I realized by that point that the reason I was looking for a church was more out of habit than anything. Eventually we gave up and we have not attended church for probably 20+ years. I think we live a pretty good life. We treat other people well and spend a lot of time trying to make our community better.

On the other hand, some of the most evil, spiteful people we have encountered are "Christians" who attend church every week. (side note - also some of the best people I know are Chrisitan).

So, my question is, what is better? Someone who lives a moral life without Church, or someone who is a terrible person but goes to church on a regular basis?

"to heaven" is a judgment in God's eyes, not in terms of human judgment. God's judgment is in terms of said Laws. You good to heaven if you can pass the court judgment by God's Law. It is expected that everyone shall fail without exception. Christianity provides an alternative. By putting faith in Christ one can be exempted from such a judgment by Law.

A moral person in human's eyes are an immoral person in God's eyes as long as this person won't be able to pass the judgment of God's law.

 

[Trump.Stamped]

I have a question for the devout Christians in the house.

I grew up a Lutheran (which I call lazy Catholics) and attended church through High School and college. Once out on my own my wife and I (she did not grow up religious) looked for a church, and we just were not moved. I realized by that point that the reason I was looking for a church was more out of habit than anything. Eventually we gave up and we have not attended church for probably 20+ years. I think we live a pretty good life. We treat other people well and spend a lot of time trying to make our community better.

On the other hand, some of the most evil, spiteful people we have encountered are "Christians" who attend church every week. (side note - also some of the best people I know are Chrisitan).

So, my question is, what is better? Someone who lives a moral life without Church, or someone who is a terrible person but goes to church on a regular basis?

"to heaven" is a judgment in God's eyes, not in terms of human judgment. God's judgment is in terms of said Laws. You good to heaven if you can pass the court judgment by God's Law. It is expected that everyone shall fail without exception. Christianity provides an alternative. By putting faith in Christ one can be exempted from such a judgment by Law.

A moral person in human's eyes are an immoral person in God's eyes as long as this person won't be able to pass the judgment of God's law.

So God set us up to fail? What a dick.

 

[koshergrl]

If you're not a Christian, why would you want to go to Christian heaven? It sounds rather a dull and boring place in the first place, kind of like being forced to go to Sunday School or Church for the rest of your death. I can think of better things to do in my death.

Precisely! If people don't care about God or goodness in this life, what takes place the instant after death to make one care about God and goodness in the next?

I care about God. I am God, so I care quite a lot, thank you very much.

I'm also a very moral person, I don't need others to tell me what morals I should follow, I have a brain and I use it.

I live my life in the way I deem to be the best way, I care about other people around me, and I put a lot of effort into trying to help others to achieve what it is they want to achieve.

I don't need to be criticized by others simply because I don't accept their make belief.

Anyone who claims to be God probably isn't going to be welcomed into Heaven. Not only do you replace God in your heart, but you have no sense of humility.....which has a tendency to rule your thoughts and actions. Another thing that was stressed in the Gospel was good works alone cannot get you into the kingdom of Heaven. Faith is essential.

I don't believe they were saying they are "The God" - simply that God is in all of us, you can chose to recognize it or not. Church or religion have nothing to do with it, or doesn't have to. I have seen people use church and religion for both great good and great evil.

I don't believe that God put us here to bow down and spend our life worshiping him/her/it.

No, I was saying I am God. God isn't in me.

The point I was making, had anyone bothered to ask, is that God is what people consider to be the thing that controls stuff. I control my life, therefore I am my own God.

Either that or I tell people I'm God because it's hilarious.

Pssst...you aren't God.

 

[hobelim]

Christianity provides an alternative. By putting faith in Christ one can be exempted from such a judgment by Law.

If someone put their faith in Jesus they would conform to his commands about how to correctly understand and apply the law in the only way that fulfills God's promise of life for compliance.

No one is exempt from the consequences of what they say and do for either good or evil.

 

[Hawkins]

So God set us up to fail? What a dick.

It only says that you don't have the intelligence to figure things out. Blame your own intelligence if you can't get a better answer than this.

 

[koshergrl]

If you're not a Christian, why would you want to go to Christian heaven? It sounds rather a dull and boring place in the first place, kind of like being forced to go to Sunday School or Church for the rest of your death. I can think of better things to do in my death.

I'm sure you think you can.....but then again that's just arrogance talking.

No it's not arrogance.

Arrogance would be telling people what happens after death, and telling them you KNOW this is true.

Rubbish, you have as much idea as I do, and I don't have a clue.

No, arrogance.is admitting that you are your.only god.

 

[mudwhistle]

Plenty of Muslims converted to Christianity.

If you were born in the 1800s must you own slaves? If you were born in the South during reconsruction and Jim Crow must you hate blacks?

Muslims find it difficult to leave their faith, but is any faith that is forced upon you to extremes real?

Yes, some Muslims convert, I think probably more people convert the other way. People do have that choice.

However I find that many people can't accept to convert. To be told that everything you were brought up to believe is false, it kind of hurts people too much for them to be able to change.

Pride can be a terrible sin.

I actually think that pride can be a great thing. Without pride who would care about anything?

It's all about how you use things. Anger can be used positively, and negatively, just like pride and many other attributes.

You're confusing pride with compassion.

No, I'm not.

I don't have to wear a uniform to work. I could go to work in whatever I choose to go to work in. But I choose to go to work in decent clothing because I have pride. I choose to wear decent clothing on the streets, because I have pride.

Pride can also keep you from listening to rational advice. It can make you take sides against someone who only wants to help you. It can cause you to get pissed off when someone tells you to do something that you don't want to do, but should do for the common good. It can cause you to worry about your looks rather than roll up your sleeves and get dirty, and do something nobody else can or will do. It can cause you to destroy your team and go for the bigger paycheck instead of taking less and winning a championship.

 

[hobelim]

So God set us up to fail? What a dick.

It only says that you don't have the intelligence to figure things out. Blame your own intelligence if you can't get a better answer than this.

There really is nothing going on here that requires a high IQ but there is something that maybe you with your magnificent intelligence can explain to me that I don't understand...

Why do some people not notice that they are standing in a pile of shit when anyone with eyes that see can see that they are standing in a pile of shit, not to mention that smell.


Can't you smell that smell?

 

[Trump.Stamped]

So God set us up to fail? What a dick.

It only says that you don't have the intelligence to figure things out. Blame your own intelligence if you can't get a better answer than this.

Maybe it actually takes more intelligence to think on your own instead of accepting a dogmatic religion that was created by man, based on an old book that was originally written by...man...retranslated and edited by...man..etc etc.

Let's face it, the vast majority of people believe what they believe because they were taught to by someone else, and not their own personal experience.

 

[Hawkins]

So God set us up to fail? What a dick.

It only says that you don't have the intelligence to figure things out. Blame your own intelligence if you can't get a better answer than this.

Well that said. The big picture is that God's goal is to build an eternity called heaven where humans and angels are invited to join. However, not every freewill can live in such an eternity with God. God shows through the event of Eden that some humans (angels alike) will choose to sin in such an eternity. Earth is thus built for the purpose of qualify the qualified to enter heaven by filtering out the unqualified. Law is thus set of this qualifying purpose.

However, in a realm where the evil keeps influencing each other (The Bible even says that Satan is the god of this realm), not even the expected righteous can abide by God's Law. Thus God allows an alternative for the righteous to get to heaven through Jesus Christ. Law is not used as a judgment/measurement. Instead Faith is used, Faith and Obedience (i.e., Law) are the 2 key factors deciding whether a human with freewill can live with God in the eternity called heaven. Again, God showed through Adam on how the lack of obedience and the lack of faith led to his fall.