Can Atheists be Moral?

[ding]

That’s not why the vast majority of abortions are performed, right? For fear of death by the mother?

Of course not. Doesn't mean the point isn't valid. You can't demand of anybody to take an actual risk.

I can if the risk was created by that person. It’s called personal accountability.

But you do agree that you are trying to use an exception to justify all abortions, right?

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

What are the percentages of death by pregnancy?

216 per 100000 according to wikipedia. So 0.2 percent.

Recheck your numbers.

 

[forkup]

I disagree. Pregnancy is not a zero risk proposition. Even if I accept that a fetus has the same rights a full grown human does (I don't), you are still demanding that one person takes a potentially fatal risk for another.

That’s not why the vast majority of abortions are performed, right? For fear of death by the mother?

Of course not. Doesn't mean the point isn't valid. You can't demand of anybody to take an actual risk.

I can if the risk was created by that person. It’s called personal accountability.

But you do agree that you are trying to use an exception to justify all abortions, right?

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

Do you believe in personal accountability?

Sure I do. The very first person I'm accountable to is myself. I'm the one making decisions and I'm the one who has to face the consequences of those decisions. This also means I respect other peoples right to do the same.

 

[ding]

That’s not why the vast majority of abortions are performed, right? For fear of death by the mother?

Of course not. Doesn't mean the point isn't valid. You can't demand of anybody to take an actual risk.

I can if the risk was created by that person. It’s called personal accountability.

But you do agree that you are trying to use an exception to justify all abortions, right?

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

Do you believe in personal accountability?

Sure I do. The very first person I'm accountable to is myself. I'm the one making decisions and I'm the one who has to face the consequences of those decisions. This also means I respect other peoples right to do the same.

Right. The problem is that abortion is not suffering the consequences of actions. Abortion is making someone else suffer the consequences.

 

[forkup]

Of course not. Doesn't mean the point isn't valid. You can't demand of anybody to take an actual risk.

I can if the risk was created by that person. It’s called personal accountability.

But you do agree that you are trying to use an exception to justify all abortions, right?

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

What are the percentages of death by pregnancy?

216 per 100000 according to wikipedia. So 0.2 percent.

Recheck your numbers.

Your right, it's 26 per 100000.

 

[forkup]

Of course not. Doesn't mean the point isn't valid. You can't demand of anybody to take an actual risk.

I can if the risk was created by that person. It’s called personal accountability.

But you do agree that you are trying to use an exception to justify all abortions, right?

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

Do you believe in personal accountability?

Sure I do. The very first person I'm accountable to is myself. I'm the one making decisions and I'm the one who has to face the consequences of those decisions. This also means I respect other peoples right to do the same.

Right. The problem is that abortion is not suffering the consequences of actions. Abortion is making someone else suffer the consequences.

As opposed to potentially losing your own life. Again what gives you the right to demand that of anybody?

 

[ding]

I can if the risk was created by that person. It’s called personal accountability.

But you do agree that you are trying to use an exception to justify all abortions, right?

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

What are the percentages of death by pregnancy?

216 per 100000 according to wikipedia. So 0.2 percent.

Recheck your numbers.

Your right, it's 26 per 100000.

I think your argument for justifying the ending of a human life is disingenuous for two reasons. One, it’s not why women have abortions. Two, the numbers don’t support the 100% death rate from abortions.

 

[forkup]

Of course not. Doesn't mean the point isn't valid. You can't demand of anybody to take an actual risk.

I can if the risk was created by that person. It’s called personal accountability.

But you do agree that you are trying to use an exception to justify all abortions, right?

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

Do you believe in personal accountability?

Sure I do. The very first person I'm accountable to is myself. I'm the one making decisions and I'm the one who has to face the consequences of those decisions. This also means I respect other peoples right to do the same.

Right. The problem is that abortion is not suffering the consequences of actions. Abortion is making someone else suffer the consequences.

You think having an abortion is without consequences? It's a decision you do have to live with. Using my analogy. Say I don't try to save the guy drowning. Unless you are a complete dick, I dare say you would carry guilt the rest of your life. Those consequences are real and not to be underestimated.

 

[ding]

I can if the risk was created by that person. It’s called personal accountability.

But you do agree that you are trying to use an exception to justify all abortions, right?

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

Do you believe in personal accountability?

Sure I do. The very first person I'm accountable to is myself. I'm the one making decisions and I'm the one who has to face the consequences of those decisions. This also means I respect other peoples right to do the same.

Right. The problem is that abortion is not suffering the consequences of actions. Abortion is making someone else suffer the consequences.

As opposed to potentially losing your own life. Again what gives you the right to demand that of anybody?

Because there is a 100% certainty that they will end a life that is not their own or theirs to take. Because they were the ones who got pregnant. Because the life they created will never exist again. Because the life they are taking has a right to life. Because it is wrong to end a human life. Because humans are not property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. Because actions have consequences. Because responsibly is not learned when actions have no consequences. Because it is not the unborn baby’s fault that his or her mother got pregnant. I’m sure I will think of a few more reasons as the discussion continues.

 

[forkup]

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

What are the percentages of death by pregnancy?

216 per 100000 according to wikipedia. So 0.2 percent.

Recheck your numbers.

Your right, it's 26 per 100000.

I think your argument for justifying the ending of a human life is disingenuous for two reasons. One, it’s not why women have abortions. Two, the numbers don’t support the 100% death rate from abortions.

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

 

[ding]

I can if the risk was created by that person. It’s called personal accountability.

But you do agree that you are trying to use an exception to justify all abortions, right?

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

Do you believe in personal accountability?

Sure I do. The very first person I'm accountable to is myself. I'm the one making decisions and I'm the one who has to face the consequences of those decisions. This also means I respect other peoples right to do the same.

Right. The problem is that abortion is not suffering the consequences of actions. Abortion is making someone else suffer the consequences.

You think having an abortion is without consequences? It's a decision you do have to live with. Using my analogy. Say I don't try to save the guy drowning. Unless you are a complete dick, I dare say you would carry guilt the rest of your life. Those consequences are real and not to be underestimated.

I don’t think abortions have no consequences. That’s my point. It is not in the mother’s best interest to have an abortion.

And the consequence is even worse for the life being aborted. Right?

 

[forkup]

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

Do you believe in personal accountability?

Sure I do. The very first person I'm accountable to is myself. I'm the one making decisions and I'm the one who has to face the consequences of those decisions. This also means I respect other peoples right to do the same.

Right. The problem is that abortion is not suffering the consequences of actions. Abortion is making someone else suffer the consequences.

As opposed to potentially losing your own life. Again what gives you the right to demand that of anybody?

Because there is a 100% certainty that they will end a life that is not their own or theirs to take. Because they were the ones who got pregnant. Because the life they created will never exist again. Because the life they are taking has a right to life. Because it is wrong to end a human life. Because humans are not property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. Because actions have consequences. Because responsibly is not learned when actions have no consequences. Because it is not the unborn baby’s fault that his or her mother got pregnant. I’m sure I will think of a few more reasons as the discussion continues.

So the fetus has the right to life, and the other person alive has to risk his own?

 

[ding]

What are the percentages of death by pregnancy?

216 per 100000 according to wikipedia. So 0.2 percent.

Recheck your numbers.

Your right, it's 26 per 100000.

I think your argument for justifying the ending of a human life is disingenuous for two reasons. One, it’s not why women have abortions. Two, the numbers don’t support the 100% death rate from abortions.

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

 

[forkup]

No, because a pregnancy always carries a risk. The percentage of the risk does not change that fact. I'll try to illustrate. " Say I see someone drowning in my pool. Do you think I am obligated to risk my life to save that person? Would my obligation change if I'm a very good swimmer?" In my view, no. I still would be risking my life. What amount of risk of death is acceptable enough to compel a person to take the risk? As to personal accountability of pregnancy. I assume that a person wanting an abortion did not plan on getting pregnant. They made the choice to have sex, not to create a baby. Yes they might be stupid, or irresponsible, or simply unlucky. None of that tough is sufficient enough reason to demand of someone to risk their lives.

Do you believe in personal accountability?

Sure I do. The very first person I'm accountable to is myself. I'm the one making decisions and I'm the one who has to face the consequences of those decisions. This also means I respect other peoples right to do the same.

Right. The problem is that abortion is not suffering the consequences of actions. Abortion is making someone else suffer the consequences.

You think having an abortion is without consequences? It's a decision you do have to live with. Using my analogy. Say I don't try to save the guy drowning. Unless you are a complete dick, I dare say you would carry guilt the rest of your life. Those consequences are real and not to be underestimated.

I don’t think abortions have no consequences. That’s my point. It is not in the mother’s best interest to have an abortion.

And the consequence is even worse for the life being aborted. Right?

The mother has the right to decide what consequences she will accept. You are advocating to take that right away.

 

[forkup]

216 per 100000 according to wikipedia. So 0.2 percent.

Recheck your numbers.

Your right, it's 26 per 100000.

I think your argument for justifying the ending of a human life is disingenuous for two reasons. One, it’s not why women have abortions. Two, the numbers don’t support the 100% death rate from abortions.

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

True, does that impact in any way the potential risk of dying?

 

[ding]

Do you believe in personal accountability?

Sure I do. The very first person I'm accountable to is myself. I'm the one making decisions and I'm the one who has to face the consequences of those decisions. This also means I respect other peoples right to do the same.

Right. The problem is that abortion is not suffering the consequences of actions. Abortion is making someone else suffer the consequences.

As opposed to potentially losing your own life. Again what gives you the right to demand that of anybody?

Because there is a 100% certainty that they will end a life that is not their own or theirs to take. Because they were the ones who got pregnant. Because the life they created will never exist again. Because the life they are taking has a right to life. Because it is wrong to end a human life. Because humans are not property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. Because actions have consequences. Because responsibly is not learned when actions have no consequences. Because it is not the unborn baby’s fault that his or her mother got pregnant. I’m sure I will think of a few more reasons as the discussion continues.

So the fetus has the right to life, and the other person alive has to risk his own?

Yes, the unborn child has a right to life. There really should be no disagreement on that point.

The woman is accountable for her actions. One consequence is the risk of childbirth.

You really are making a big deal out of a 26 per 100,000 risk. Especially since we both know that’s not why they choose to have an abortion, right?

 

[ding]

Recheck your numbers.

Your right, it's 26 per 100000.

I think your argument for justifying the ending of a human life is disingenuous for two reasons. One, it’s not why women have abortions. Two, the numbers don’t support the 100% death rate from abortions.

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

True, does that impact in any way the potential risk of dying?

Yes, because that’s not why they are aborting their babies. It’s a disingenuous argument.

 

[ding]

Do you believe in personal accountability?

Sure I do. The very first person I'm accountable to is myself. I'm the one making decisions and I'm the one who has to face the consequences of those decisions. This also means I respect other peoples right to do the same.

Right. The problem is that abortion is not suffering the consequences of actions. Abortion is making someone else suffer the consequences.

You think having an abortion is without consequences? It's a decision you do have to live with. Using my analogy. Say I don't try to save the guy drowning. Unless you are a complete dick, I dare say you would carry guilt the rest of your life. Those consequences are real and not to be underestimated.

I don’t think abortions have no consequences. That’s my point. It is not in the mother’s best interest to have an abortion.

And the consequence is even worse for the life being aborted. Right?

The mother has the right to decide what consequences she will accept. You are advocating to take that right away.

Not really. She made that choice herself when she took the risk of getting pregnant.

 

[forkup]

216 per 100000 according to wikipedia. So 0.2 percent.

Recheck your numbers.

Your right, it's 26 per 100000.

I think your argument for justifying the ending of a human life is disingenuous for two reasons. One, it’s not why women have abortions. Two, the numbers don’t support the 100% death rate from abortions.

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

I also want to point out the following. Raising a child is an awesome responsibility. Doing so takes a level of maturity, financial means and sense of responsibility. You feel that abortion is selfish. I know, as you undoubtedly do, people who have kids who are incapable of mustering those traits. Can I ask if you feel any responsibility towards those kids and adults who are raised in such circumstances? Do you feel a sense of responsibility enough to provide healthcare, food, maybe a roof over their heads since you feel their life is so precious? Or do you feel that the only thing you have to do is make sure that they are alive and gladly abdicate any further sense of responsibility?

 

[forkup]

Your right, it's 26 per 100000.

I think your argument for justifying the ending of a human life is disingenuous for two reasons. One, it’s not why women have abortions. Two, the numbers don’t support the 100% death rate from abortions.

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

True, does that impact in any way the potential risk of dying?

Yes, because that’s not why they are aborting their babies. It’s a disingenuous argument.

So the reasoning to abort, impacts maternal morality? Don't think the New England journal of medicine agrees but okay.

 

[ding]

Recheck your numbers.

Your right, it's 26 per 100000.

I think your argument for justifying the ending of a human life is disingenuous for two reasons. One, it’s not why women have abortions. Two, the numbers don’t support the 100% death rate from abortions.

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

I also want to point out the following. Raising a child is an awesome responsibility. Doing so takes a level of maturity, financial means and sense of responsibility. You feel that abortion is selfish. I know, as you undoubtedly do people who have kids who are incapable of mustering those traits. Can I ask if you feel any responsibility towards those kids and adults who are raised in such circumstances? Do you feel a sense of responsibility enough to provide healthcare, food, maybe a roof over their heads since you feel their life is so precious? Or do you feel that the only thing you have to do is make sure that they are alive and gladly abdicate any further sense of responsibility?

Yes, 100%. But I doubt we would agree on the solution. I believe in subsidiarity as this is the only effective solution. Welfare as practiced by a central government has been proven not to work.