Can Atheists be Moral?

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Well, "outside of mathematics" as a concept, in and of itself, might be nonsensical in this universe if this universe

Yes, an interesting thought. I would tend to agree. However, until we can know the state of every particle of matter and of every field in the universe at the same time (allowing us to deterministically demonstrate the past and the future states of the universe with perfect accuracy), we won't have that tool at our disposal.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Empirical proof exists and can be tested and falsified.

Outside of mathematics? No. In mathematics, we have the luxury of predetermining all of the premises' truth values by using definitions. We don't have the luxury of knowing the truth of premises with 100% certainty outside of this realm.

One may say, "yes I do. I can say with certainty that I am standing on planet Earth, for instance." However, that fails outside of your own brain, as there would be no reason for all people to accept this as true with 100% certainty. But mathematical definitions are a rigged game, and are true for everyone inherently. That is the point of them, after all.

 

[G.T.]

Well, "outside of mathematics" as a concept, in and of itself, might be nonsensical in this universe if this universe

Yes, an interesting thought. I would tend to agree. However, until we can know the state of every particle of matter and of every field in the universe at the same time (allowing us to deterministically demonstrate the past and the future states of the universe with perfect accuracy), we won't have that tool at our disposal.

I'd say that any rational agent should caution on the side of the null hypothesis for any proposition that cannot be tested or falsifiable. The scientific process is my stand-alone guide towards the truth of any proposition. That's why the big bang exists as a theory, but God never could in the science world. Its purely conjecture, a god, Id even argue its irrational from a philosophical standpoint but thats just the ones as described in Religious texts.

 

[G.T.]

Empirical proof exists and can be tested and falsified.

Outside of mathematics? No. In mathematics, we have the luxury of predetermining all of the premises' truth values by using definitions. We don't have the luxury of knowing the truth of premises with 100% certainty outside of this realm.

One may say, "yes I do. I can say with certainty that I am standing on planet Earth, for instance." However, that fails outside of your own brain, as there would be no reason for all people to accept this as true with 100% certainty. But mathematical definitions are a rigged game, and are true for everyone inherently. That is the point of them, after all.

Solipsism is a tough cookie, but to ones SELF, the self even thinking at all... is a proof that a thinker exists. That concept has never been soundly defeated.

 

[ding]

Except of course that the evidence is what was created and how it was created and the laws of nature which governed its creation. And that the proof is that matter and energy cannot exist outside of space and time. So the only thing that can create space and time is no thing (which is exactly what science tells us). Spirit is no thing. God is spirit. You guys can't comprehend what I am explaining because you guys can't comprehend the requirements of existing outside of space and time. God is not matter and energy like us and God exists outside of our four dimension space time. So you guys can't comprehend or accept that consciousness without form can exist outside of space and time even though science tells us that only something like consciousness without form can exist outside of space and time. It is literally your ignorance of science which prevents you from exploring the possibility of what I am talking about.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I'd say that any rational agent should caution on the side of the null hypothesis for any proposition that cannot be tested or falsifiable.

Which would be the case when you have a cat and dog and find spilt milk. You would merely do your best to use evidence to determine what is most likely.

Solipsism is a tough cookie, but to ones SELF, the self even thinking at all... is a proof that a thinker exists.

I will defeat that right now, and easily so:

When something is only "proof" to you, then it is not proof or even evidence at all.

 

[G.T.]

I'd say that any rational agent should caution on the side of the null hypothesis for any proposition that cannot be tested or falsifiable.

Which would be the case when you have a cat and dog and find spilt milk. You would merely do your best to use evidence to determine what is most likely.

Solipsism is a tough cookie, but to ones SELF, the self even thinking at all... is a proof that a thinker exists.

I will defeat that right now, and easily so:

When something is only "proof" to you, then it is not proof or even evidence at all.

Its proof to the self, and merely asserting that its not isnt an argument.

The claim isnt that its proof to others, the claim is that to myself, as an agent, I can prove something.

TO myself.

You equivocated on "to self" and "to others."

 

[hobelim]

Yeah, thats quite irrational. A person doesn't write a book to educate himself dummy. Human beings are invited to experience life in the realm of God. Its not the other way around.

Only a condemned spirit in the realm of the dead would seek experiences through those living on earth.

The devil has tricked you into worshipping him..

But if it makes you so happy just go ahead and gibber your life away..

People write books for a number of reasons, one of which is to share knowledge. They also write books because using our talents and creating is enjoyable and fun.

Yes, human beings are invited to experience God, but like all relationships it is a two way street.

I believe you have an unrealistic perception of God. If you perceive God to be some magical fairy tale then everything you see will skew to that result. There won't be one single thing that you will accept. There is no thing that can describe God because God is no thing. God is not matter and energy like us. God exists outside of our four dimension space time. In fact the premise is that God is spirit. A spirit is no thing. Being things we can't possibly relate to being no things. A two dimensional being would have an easier time trying to understand our third dimension than we - a four dimensional being - would in trying to understand a multi-dimensional being outside of our space time. The closest I can come to and later confirm with the physical laws is that God is consciousness. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create. Mind you I am not saying I understand the nature of God, I am only telling you that in our limited human capacity the closest we can come to understanding the nature of God is that God is like a mind without a body.

So starting from that position and using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is why? Why did a mind with no body create minds with bodies? There are a number of possible reasons. Again, using our experiences as creators as a proxy and your book analogy, we create things because using our talents and creating things are enjoyable and fun, but we also create things for a reason to serve a purpose. We also create things to share with others. We know from our experiences that relationships are not one way. So it is no great leap in logic to believe that God shares in our experiences as much if not more than we share in his experiences.

we we we, us us us ...

How many of you are there?

One body many members.

Yes, but only one head.

Without it the body is dead.

My people shall never be put to shame.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

 

[G.T.]

Something else provable to ones self, as an agent, is that you dont possess all knowledge. If you did, youd know you did because your mere posession of such would then be knowledge.

 

[ding]

It's not that complicated. As much as it pains me to say, GT is correct.

The definition of evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

The definition of proof is evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

 

[ding]

People write books for a number of reasons, one of which is to share knowledge. They also write books because using our talents and creating is enjoyable and fun.

Yes, human beings are invited to experience God, but like all relationships it is a two way street.

I believe you have an unrealistic perception of God. If you perceive God to be some magical fairy tale then everything you see will skew to that result. There won't be one single thing that you will accept. There is no thing that can describe God because God is no thing. God is not matter and energy like us. God exists outside of our four dimension space time. In fact the premise is that God is spirit. A spirit is no thing. Being things we can't possibly relate to being no things. A two dimensional being would have an easier time trying to understand our third dimension than we - a four dimensional being - would in trying to understand a multi-dimensional being outside of our space time. The closest I can come to and later confirm with the physical laws is that God is consciousness. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create. Mind you I am not saying I understand the nature of God, I am only telling you that in our limited human capacity the closest we can come to understanding the nature of God is that God is like a mind without a body.

So starting from that position and using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is why? Why did a mind with no body create minds with bodies? There are a number of possible reasons. Again, using our experiences as creators as a proxy and your book analogy, we create things because using our talents and creating things are enjoyable and fun, but we also create things for a reason to serve a purpose. We also create things to share with others. We know from our experiences that relationships are not one way. So it is no great leap in logic to believe that God shares in our experiences as much if not more than we share in his experiences.

we we we, us us us ...

How many of you are there?

One body many members.

Yes, but only one head.

Without it the body is dead.

My people shall never be put to shame.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

I Am the True Vine
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants,[a] for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

This only makes sense if you believe that God created the material world and was born into the material world to testify to the truth. Whether or not you believe these things he will progress you through a conflict and confusion process. But if you have faith in these things you will have peace through the storm because you will know he is working in your life even when it seems to you that he isn't.

 

[RodISHI]

People write books for a number of reasons, one of which is to share knowledge. They also write books because using our talents and creating is enjoyable and fun.

Yes, human beings are invited to experience God, but like all relationships it is a two way street.

I believe you have an unrealistic perception of God. If you perceive God to be some magical fairy tale then everything you see will skew to that result. There won't be one single thing that you will accept. There is no thing that can describe God because God is no thing. God is not matter and energy like us. God exists outside of our four dimension space time. In fact the premise is that God is spirit. A spirit is no thing. Being things we can't possibly relate to being no things. A two dimensional being would have an easier time trying to understand our third dimension than we - a four dimensional being - would in trying to understand a multi-dimensional being outside of our space time. The closest I can come to and later confirm with the physical laws is that God is consciousness. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create. Mind you I am not saying I understand the nature of God, I am only telling you that in our limited human capacity the closest we can come to understanding the nature of God is that God is like a mind without a body.

So starting from that position and using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is why? Why did a mind with no body create minds with bodies? There are a number of possible reasons. Again, using our experiences as creators as a proxy and your book analogy, we create things because using our talents and creating things are enjoyable and fun, but we also create things for a reason to serve a purpose. We also create things to share with others. We know from our experiences that relationships are not one way. So it is no great leap in logic to believe that God shares in our experiences as much if not more than we share in his experiences.

we we we, us us us ...

How many of you are there?

One body many members.

Yes, but only one head.

Without it the body is dead.

My people shall never be put to shame.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[hobelim]

we we we, us us us ...

How many of you are there?

One body many members.

Yes, but only one head.

Without it the body is dead.

My people shall never be put to shame.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

I Am the True Vine
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants,[a] for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

This only makes sense if you believe that God created the material world and was born into the material world to testify to the truth. Whether or not you believe these things he will progress you through a conflict and confusion process. But if you have faith in these things you will have peace through the storm because you will know he is working in your life even when it seems to you that he isn't.

No, it only makes sense if I believe that God created heaven and earth, the world above and your world below. The firmament, basis, of heaven is the law. Unless you conform to the revelation of Jesus about the figurative language and hidden subjects in the law and do it, you will remain where you are.

Nowhere. You are withering, dead and dying, without ever finding peace in death.

fit for nothing but fuel for the fire.

 

[ding]

we we we, us us us ...

How many of you are there?

One body many members.

Yes, but only one head.

Without it the body is dead.

My people shall never be put to shame.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Exactly. This is the power of faith. I cannot begin to explain how much it has transformed my life and the lives of those I love for the good of all.

 

[hobelim]

One body many members.

Yes, but only one head.

Without it the body is dead.

My people shall never be put to shame.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Exactly. This is the power of faith. I cannot begin to explain how much it has transformed my life and the lives of those I love for the good of all.

I am really glad you are doing better. Kudos. I shudder at the thought of what you used to be like if turning to a matzo for spiritual life and perjuring yourself in the name of God is an improvement.

 

[ding]

One body many members.

Yes, but only one head.

Without it the body is dead.

My people shall never be put to shame.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

I Am the True Vine
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants,[a] for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

This only makes sense if you believe that God created the material world and was born into the material world to testify to the truth. Whether or not you believe these things he will progress you through a conflict and confusion process. But if you have faith in these things you will have peace through the storm because you will know he is working in your life even when it seems to you that he isn't.

No, it only makes sense if I believe that God created heaven and earth, the world above and your world below. The firmament, basis, of heaven is the law. Unless you conform to the revelation of Jesus about the figurative language and hidden subjects in the law and do it, you will remain where you are.

Nowhere.

fit for nothing but fuel for the fire.

God is literally existence. Nothing exists without God. Not space, not time. Nothing.

I don't agree that I need to conform. Regardless of what I do in this world, I am being pruned. I am constantly receiving feedback on my thoughts and actions. This feedback has the effect of reinforcing or correcting my behaviors such that I am being progressed. The only question will be will I resist the pruning or will I accept the pruning. If I resist the pruning my progression will be fought by me and I will not become what I can be. If I accept the pruning I will learn and progress and have peace through the storms of my life.

Everything is hidden from you because you have made yourself God. You will never progress behaving the way you do.

 

[ding]

Yes, but only one head.

Without it the body is dead.

My people shall never be put to shame.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Exactly. This is the power of faith. I cannot begin to explain how much it has transformed my life and the lives of those I love for the good of all.

I am really glad you are doing better. Kudos. I shudder at the thought of what you used to be like if praying to a matzo for spiritual life and perjuring yourself in the name of God is an improvement.

I doubt that you are glad.

Your dismissal of the power of faith was entirely predictable.

 

[hobelim]

My people shall never be put to shame.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Exactly. This is the power of faith. I cannot begin to explain how much it has transformed my life and the lives of those I love for the good of all.

I am really glad you are doing better. Kudos. I shudder at the thought of what you used to be like if praying to a matzo for spiritual life and perjuring yourself in the name of God is an improvement.

I doubt that you are glad.

Your dismissal of the power of faith was entirely predictable.

My dismissal of your professions of having faith in absurdities was entirely predictable because you know that what you profess to believe is a lie. You are beginning to suspect that I don't believe you. You are an amazing seer, a perfect reflection of that brazen, subtle, and very clever shining star of ancient days, the Nachash.

May I bring you some tea your highness?

 

[Taz]

The problem, ding, is that you attribute the wisdom to a deity with poor foundational proof,

I.e., not a shred of evidence whatsoever.

Wrong. Physical laws, biological laws and moral laws provide all the evidence you need.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

So no real proof, just personal opinion. Got it.

The proof you are so sorely seeking

Not backed up by a real science site, so just your personal opinion. Man, you sure suck at this.

 

[danielpalos]

Evidence can be valid, invalid, strong, poor, inconclusive or conclusive ~ and a failure to set it apart from what we call proof bogs down SO many would-be fruitful discussions regarding epistemology, metaphysics, etc

With all of the new discoveries Astronomy is bringing us; it may be that there is at least one earth like planet in each galaxy.

if one of all of those discovered a Fountain of Youth; would mortals still be equal.